Emperor's Furor Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Gav's not to bad, his works after Deliverance Lost were good imo, I felt Deliverance Lost was hampered because it had to revolve around a narrative that was somewhat implausible in the first place. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3961630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 It doesn't help that certain elements of fluff get shoehorned in because they've always been there. Now in terms of which primarch piques the interest the least, probably sanguinius. But thats due to a severe lack of screen time, which generally seems to be the common argumemt here. All the others i could say something about to varying degrees Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3961701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millicant Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Gav's not to bad, his works after Deliverance Lost were good imo, I felt Deliverance Lost was hampered because it had to revolve around a narrative that was somewhat implausible in the first place. I'll have to respectfully disagree here. While historically I have liked Gav Thorpe's contributions to Battlefleet Gothic and other 40k areas, I've found almost all of his Heresy writings to be awful. He has introduced more bad plot turns and ridiculous characterizations than any other author I can think of. He is also a major shareholder in my disgust with the Dark Angels fiction thus far; I have long since decided to treat his works as non-existant. I don't mean to be bitter and grumpy again, but the constant pairing of Gav and Dark Angels has critically impacted the quality of fiction around my favorite legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3961832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOneMarshal Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 If his writing is on par with his horrible chaos codex then I feel for the dark angels and raven guard. On the topic of authors it would be nice if we could get ADB to write dark angels. He is reallly good at making boring or one dimensional legions multi dimensional. Wouldn't hurt if the imperial fists got more rules as well I mean in 30k they took a lot of the black templars and infused it with the fists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3961840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tharand Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I don't believe that the Dark Angels are one dimensional at all but they've just kinda turned into that with the various novels so far. Ultimately their loyalty was potentially the most interesting thing about them. Now that we know many of the loyal legions had large components turn traitor and fight for Horus it makes the Dark Angels secret look silly. It also doesn't help that the Lion feels like a completely different character every time he is written by a different author. One minute he's kind of cool and the next a complete toolbox. Overall it cheapens the feel of the Legion and I think that's why many people consider them the most bland/boring right now. Hopefully this trend can be turned around for the First. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3961868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I don't think the Lion's portrayal is consistent, I mean he was "ok" in the origin books although it was quite clear he was a god among men and had trouble fitting in, despite calling them little brothers. Then you have him decapitating a loyal Caliban born chaplain at a whim in a manner more befitting of Perturabo and Mortarion. Then you have the scheming dude who tries to play cards in regards to who'll be the next Warmaster when he bribes Perturabo with siege engines. Then you have the nicey nice friendly guy in Unremembered Empire but then in The Herald of Sanguinius he's a total ass. All of them are quite contradictory. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3961885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdemayo Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 While I agrew the Dark Angels have gotten the short end of the novel series so far, I think they have some really cool elements that just need to be brought out by painting or new fluff: O Secretive overlocking knightly orders, operating inside the Legion, with different levels of initiation, and traditions stretching back to the long night on Caliban. O Their self-contained Wing structure, with (what was it.. 5? different specialities). Weve only seen one or two of them in action so far. O The first. As the original legion, the DA offer an interesting peek into the origins of the marines and the very early crusade. Im betting we will get at least one cool surprise revelation about the period from either FW or the novels before it's all over. O Ambiguity. The Dark Angels are most interesting when it's not clear what they are going to do, or how loyal they will eventually turn out. It helps that LJ is such a cold, paranoid guy. 0 Heraldic/knightly paint schemes and bling. The quartered fields, crusade style helmets, robes/surcoats, etc. There's some really cool painting and modeling opportunity, especially if one draws on parts and models from the 40k range. I love the giant rivets on the new Death wing models, for example. Very heresy-looking. (Can I vote that after they finish the novel series through Terra, they go back and replace some of the older crappier novels. Hell, tell the whole story again, but this time from the main perspective of the Dark Angels, Blood Angels and White Scars...) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3961892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOneMarshal Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I agree with above posters that the dark angels will be better after being written consistently they have a lot going for them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3961913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjorn Firewalker Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Well said, Lord Tharand and WoT. It's downright shocking how incompetent Games Workshop is in giving the Lion a consistent description, and Black Library's editors for failing to rein in the writers- many of whom undoubtedly share the same biases we have regarding the Primarchs, and have minimal interest in working beyond these biases. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3961940 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 My personal fan(boy) theory is is that the First were ordered by the Emps to kill off the Thunder Earriors to blood themselves and prove their loyalty. Whether or not this will be done by FW or not is pure speculation at best. But if it does pan out....I just want you all to know I called it! :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3961945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 My personal fan(boy) theory is is that the First were ordered by the Emps to kill off the Thunder Earriors to blood themselves and prove their loyalty. Whether or not this will be done by FW or not is pure speculation at best. But if it does pan out....I just want you all to know I called it! :P I really hope there's some kind of dark grisly secret like that. Them being the first legion there's space for some really big secret from the very start of the great crusade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3961971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 We do get some idea of their origins from the alpha legion article, it says the First were put into action without the test phase subsequent legions would undergo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3961973 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 My personal fan(boy) theory is is that the First were ordered by the Emps to kill off the Thunder Earriors to blood themselves and prove their loyalty. Whether or not this will be done by FW or not is pure speculation at best. But if it does pan out....I just want you all to know I called it! The piece they did for the War Hounds taking out a final hold-out kind of implied that this was a singular occurrence, that usually the Thunder Warriors simply died out (which may or may not be as intended), which to me puts a hamper on this theory. I don't think they would have mentioned its notability if the First Legion had regularly done the same, even if the information was being repressed. Personally, my pet-theory is that the First Legion was made too similar to the Thunder Warriors in the beginning, and this is why there were reports of atrocities and massacres as was apparently mentioned at the Weekender. They were, after all, the first Legion. Part of the reason for them being the proto-legion was to finally put to test what up to that point was conjecture and theory. According to the Alpha Legion article, the Dark Angels were the only Legion to not undergo an initial 'alpha' stage. Why? Something must have happened to the First to deem it a required step for the others. Part of me is really hoping that it will be something that will make the still-Terranbound Imperium look at the Emperor in horror, with cries of 'What have you done?' Something that would have made even his most ardent supporters question his judgement, his sanity, his intentions. Imagine what mere twenty Legions did to an entire galaxy. Imagine what half of those Legions did to Terra, in the end. It doesn't take a leap of imagination to think that seeing the first instance of this promise, this potential, even just a microcosm of it, might have a devastating impact. I don't think it'll have a lasting impact though, or be something that is incorporated into the identity of the First Legion or the Dark Angels, but it's something that I feel there should be when you are exploring the origins of the very first attempt at creating the Legiones Astartes. Which the Dark Angels happen to be. Edit: Because I don't even really think it matters that it is the Dark Angels. If the lore had said that, despite the numbering, it was the VII Legion whose gene-seed was first available for full testing and implantation, I'd be saying the above for the Imperial Fists. My pet-theory isn't intended to be something I want to have the Dark Angels be, just the 'first created legion' be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3961975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I always thought it would be interesting to have the 3rd legion's 'accident ' related to the thunder warriors. In an attempt to assimilate the thunder warriors into the 'functional legionaries' ranks, existing veteran t warriors ere interned with various forms of gene seed but this proved to be costly mistake, in which they learned that the T warriors when interned with geneseed were 'too' effective and posed an even bigger threat to the instability of a conquered Terra than they already did. In a desperate attempt to now sate/put down the hybrid t warriors and Space marine hybrids the culling began. The war hounds were sent to deal with the T warriors and did so with usual Astarte efficiency but failed to comprehend the tactical ability that the T Warriors possessed, in a desperate attempt to boost their prowess even further they attempted a raid on the gene labs managing to secure 3rd legion gene samples, whilst amalgamating themselves with their acquired/ preferred gene seed(simply because it was all that was available or had the best chances of working with themselves) they were vulnerable and only hastened their own destruction. Allowing certain T warriors to slip the net and remain undetected as it were believed they were all destroyed whilst assimilating/receiving gene therapy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3961990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I always thought it would be interesting to have the 3rd legion's 'accident ' related to the thunder warriors. In an attempt to assimilate the thunder warriors into the 'functional legionaries' ranks, existing veteran t warriors ere interned with various forms of gene seed but this proved to be costly mistake, in which they learned that the T warriors when interned with geneseed were 'too' effective and posed an even bigger threat to the instability of a conquered Terra than they already did. In a desperate attempt to now sate/put down the hybrid t warriors and Space marine hybrids the culling began. The war hounds were sent to deal with the T warriors and did so with usual Astarte efficiency but failed to comprehend the tactical ability that the T Warriors possessed, in a desperate attempt to boost their prowess even further they attempted a raid on the gene labs managing to secure 3rd legion gene samples, whilst amalgamating themselves with their acquired/ preferred gene seed(simply because it was all that was available or had the best chances of working with themselves) they were vulnerable and only hastened their own destruction. Allowing certain T warriors to slip the net and remain undetected as it were believed they were all destroyed whilst assimilating/receiving gene therapy. Unfortunately the problem with the III legion has recently been answered in the short story Chirurgeon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3961994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Oh? Mind spoiling it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3961996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Oh? Mind spoiling it? I made a thread about it here, but this sums it up. The geneseed seems to have been sabotaged by a cult called the Selenites and the records destroyed on Terra. Fabius is Terran born and was also affected by the corruption of the geneseed but has successfully hidden it and put it off by injecting himself with a concentrated serum made up of other legionnaires bio. He was originally tasked with rooting out the problem and curing it prior to Fulgrim being found, he had to put fellow Legionaries, who through his own tests turned out to have the blight and were deemed impure, to death so that he could dissect them, including his best friend, however it turns out Fabius still has his friend but he's little more than a mindless zombie like retainer now who he keeps hidden away in his secret lab. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3962005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raktra Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I'm personally a fan of the theory that some of the Thunder Warriors that were highly skilled or somesuch were kept and sneakily integrated into the Legions. Keyly Autek Mor, that guy's a big fella with an implied creepy-ass background. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3962032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 The Ultramarines and Guilliman. Less so that I find them boring and more that the recent Horus Heresy series has done an excellent job of turning me off them entirely so that I don't really find them interesting or good. I find Guilliman wanting when compared to his loyalist brothers, though I appreciate his desire to innovate and place trust in personal initiative. Though I do find the 30k Ultramarines to be better than their 40k counterparts, whom I don't exactly have the highest opinion of. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3962040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I always thought it would be interesting to have the 3rd legion's 'accident ' related to the thunder warriors. In an attempt to assimilate the thunder warriors into the 'functional legionaries' ranks, existing veteran t warriors ere interned with various forms of gene seed but this proved to be costly mistake, in which they learned that the T warriors when interned with geneseed were 'too' effective and posed an even bigger threat to the instability of a conquered Terra than they already did. In a desperate attempt to now sate/put down the hybrid t warriors and Space marine hybrids the culling began. The war hounds were sent to deal with the T warriors and did so with usual Astarte efficiency but failed to comprehend the tactical ability that the T Warriors possessed, in a desperate attempt to boost their prowess even further they attempted a raid on the gene labs managing to secure 3rd legion gene samples, whilst amalgamating themselves with their acquired/ preferred gene seed(simply because it was all that was available or had the best chances of working with themselves) they were vulnerable and only hastened their own destruction. Allowing certain T warriors to slip the net and remain undetected as it were believed they were all destroyed whilst assimilating/receiving gene therapy. Unfortunately the problem with the III legion has recently been answered in the short story Chirurgeon. PLEASE DO TELL! please ignore, just saw your answer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3962051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schultzhoffen Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 They're all quite interesting although Angron is the least so. Some are less likeable than others but that doesn't affect how interesting they are. Although, to be fair, some are more one dimensional than others but this may be addressed as the series continues. On the other hand, how three dimensional can you make a demi-god? They're human flaws and virtues exaggerated for effect. @Gree: I'm not surprised in the slightest. I've admired your ability to hate the Ultramarines for years, now. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3962052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I always thought it would be interesting to have the 3rd legion's 'accident ' related to the thunder warriors. In an attempt to assimilate the thunder warriors into the 'functional legionaries' ranks, existing veteran t warriors ere interned with various forms of gene seed but this proved to be costly mistake, in which they learned that the T warriors when interned with geneseed were 'too' effective and posed an even bigger threat to the instability of a conquered Terra than they already did. In a desperate attempt to now sate/put down the hybrid t warriors and Space marine hybrids the culling began. The war hounds were sent to deal with the T warriors and did so with usual Astarte efficiency but failed to comprehend the tactical ability that the T Warriors possessed, in a desperate attempt to boost their prowess even further they attempted a raid on the gene labs managing to secure 3rd legion gene samples, whilst amalgamating themselves with their acquired/ preferred gene seed(simply because it was all that was available or had the best chances of working with themselves) they were vulnerable and only hastened their own destruction. Allowing certain T warriors to slip the net and remain undetected as it were believed they were all destroyed whilst assimilating/receiving gene therapy. Unfortunately the problem with the III legion has recently been answered in the short story Chirurgeon. PLEASE DO TELL! please ignore, just saw your answer. Ok just saw your post :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3962055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 @Gree: I'm not surprised in the slightest. I've admired your ability to hate the Ultramarines for years, now. Not quite hatred. Disdain and disappointment yes, but not that. I find it rather ridiculous to hate a group of fictional toy soldiers, especially when I encounter far more unpleasant people in real life. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3962058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 @Gree: I'm not surprised in the slightest. I've admired your ability to hate the Ultramarines for years, now. Not quite hatred. Disdain and disappointment yes, but not that. I find it rather ridiculous to hate a group of fictional toy soldiers, especially when I encounter far more unpleasant people in real life. *sees comment andwithdraws to the dark corners of the internet* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3962108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schultzhoffen Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 @Gree: agree 100% Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303900-the-most-boring-primarchlegion/page/4/#findComment-3962134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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