Pride of the Legion with Vet Tac Squads

[Brother Heinrich]

Is it worth is to run Veteran Tac squads with the pride of the legion rite of war? Or is it better to just use regular tacticals to save points? I ask because form a modeling standpoint it would make it crazy easy to switch between 30k and 40k with an army kitted out the way you can do veteran tacticals, however I worry that their price tag isn't worth what they do. Any thoughts?

[Slips]

If using Pride of the Legion, regular Tacs no longer become Compulsory while Tac Vets and Terminators do. At that point, adding on a Tac Blob or two would really whittle down your remaining points.

 

As for Terminators v Tac Vets, it depends. Terminators are tougher and have more CC killyness but Tac Vets are more flexible and potentially more maneuverable. Without considering Dedicated Transports and on a very general level, both squads will often cost the same so its up to you.

 

The option of choosing a Special Rule for Tac Vets helps them a lot when their only competition for a spot in the list is terminators (due to compulsory). Since you're fielding them with FC (Blood Angels, right?) you could stack it with Fearless for a pretty nasty CC unit - though they wont be as tough as terminators - or, if you take Stubborn (army wide, sadly) and give them Sniper, you have a pretty decent shooty unit that is unlikely to move from where you park them while dishing out some respectable damage.

[helterskelter]

You can tailor these squads to your absolute whim, mobile albeit shorter range missile launchers could potentially be a lot of fun, you coukd have 2 shooty squads, 1 each shooty/combat and so on. RoW armies are generally more elite/low body count anyways, so don't think unit price is gonna be that scary.

What would make me take these is the variety, and would always be worth it

[Slips]

Acutally, the Suspensor Web is an optional thing to activate. You just need to mention that you are / are not before shooting.

 

So that means the missile is either 48" Heavy 1 or 24" Assault 1. Same with the Heavy Bolter.

 

Thats how I read the rules for the Suspensor Web anyways...

[Brother Heinrich]

yeah my thinking was "Hey, why not run my tactical squads as Veterans, give each squad a heavy flamer and a volkite charger, as well as fearless or outflank. That way I can easily count them as 40k if I want to and say the Volkite Charger is a meltagun." Figured I'd still put them in a rhino (because you know Lucifer pattern engines are gonna be a thing for us IX Legion boys).

[Hesh Kadesh]

The rules and the example give different wordings; it forces you to become assault when shooting at targets within half range, while the example gives you a choice, which has an effect when applying to non-blast multishot weapons right on the cusp. 

 

Admittedly, it's a bit of a pain, but if you have a unit with a Heavy Bolter with Suspensor firing at an enemy unit with one model at the 18" line, but the rest of the models beyond that line, regardless of if you stood still, you'd be forced to use Assault 3 18" Range profile rather than Heavy 3 18" despite being apparently eligible for both.

 

It's a niche error, but I got caught out by that in a recent game.

[Brofist]

In my opinion, no, POTL isn't really worth it for the veteran squads unless you have a specific strategy/synergy in mind. They just cost too many points. You also give up an additional VP if you loose all your veterans.

[Rommel44]

There are some uses for the Veterans in my opinion, just depends on what you want to run with them. I'm serioulsy considering a list with this ROW, as beacuse the Imperial Fists have +1 to hit with all Bolter Weaponry, Vet Squads with Heavy Bolters w/Suspensors sound very brutal, especially in ZM or against other infantry. Granted you wont have as many bodies on the table but stick them in Rhinos and then let them do what they do best. Having an army of Vets would be nice, just have to support them with the right unitis.

[Reyner]

My Ultramarines are likely going to be mostly Veteran Squads :) unless the Ultramarines get an interesting Rite of War! I am thinking of running mine in Rhinos with missile launchers or plasma guns with the Sniper ability :P

[Rommel44]

My Ultramarines are likely going to be mostly Veteran Squads unless the Ultramarines get an interesting Rite of War! I am thinking of running mine in Rhinos with missile launchers or plasma guns with the Sniper ability

Heavy Bolters to go with my Imperal Fists +1 to hit with all Bolter Weapons for me mate . Do plan to run other Vet's with Melta's or most likely Missle Launchers, as they also get Suspensors, and combined with the IF's Tank Hunter on top of Tank Hunter speciality makes them a great choice against Tanks and Vehicles.

[Slips]

My Ultramarines are likely going to be mostly Veteran Squads unless the Ultramarines get an interesting Rite of War! I am thinking of running mine in Rhinos with missile launchers or plasma guns with the Sniper ability

Heavy Bolters to go with my Imperal Fists +1 to hit with all Bolter Weapons for me mate . Do plan to run other Vet's with Melta's or most likely Missle Launchers, as they also get Suspensors, and combined with the IF's Tank Hunter on top of Tank Hunter speciality makes them a great choice against Tanks and Vehicles.

Only IF Heavy Support Squads get Tank Hunter for free. So for Vet Squads you'd have to actively take the Tank Hunter rule instead of, say, Fearless, Outflank, Sniper or Furious Charge. I find that these rules are more useful than Tank Hunter since you can give the Squad Melta Bombs which come with Armorbane (and not Melta, so screw you armored ceramite) and having Fearless or Outflank means you're more likely to get where you want to be to plant them.

Sniper, I find, with IF vets sporting 1-2 HB /w Suspensor is far more useful since we gain Stubborn in cover anyways so you're dealing a bit more damage with the Psuedo Rends than you would otherwise.

[Gorgoff]

I'd prefer taking a Delegatus Consul. He makes Vets troops possible as well but your opponent won't get victory points for killing them.

Put him without any additional equipment in a bastion alongside your heavy support squad and he'll generate another VP just for staying alive.

[Rommel44]

Ah that is correct made. Thanks for clearing that up I got mixed up there for a second. That being said though, veteran squads with heavy bolters and the sniper special rule make the Imperial Fists veterans extremely nasty against infantry. plan to run three to four squads like this in my list while the others will have missile launchers and the tank hunter special rule.

[Gorgoff]

I have thought about fielding ten Vets. with Bolters and some Heavy Bolters but came to think that it is not worth it.

Why? I show ya.

Now it is time for MATHHAMMER Whoooooohooooo ;)

Let's see.... Ten Dudes with Boltguns and Heavy Bolters cost 240 Points.

In twelve inches they make 16 Bolter shots and six hb shots.

Against SM they make round about two dead Marines.

Plus one for the HB.

Five Tactical Support Dudes armed with Plasma Guns and cruisin' around in an Rhino cost ~220 points will kill five Marines AND can destroy vehicles as well. So, Veterans shouldn't be armed that way in my oppinion.

I guess they can go in two directions.

Obviously they could ride a Land Raider and cut their way in close combat through the army of your whimpy opponent. ;)

Plain and simple.

On the other hand you could use them to disturb the plans of the other player. Just let them outflank and give them some anti tank guns like Suspenser Web Rockit Launchers and/or Melter Guns. That gives your HH army some tactical finesse which is nice in my book.

[Slips]

Did you take into account that the Tac Vets at 10 men with 2 HB were: Imperial Fists (BS5) and had the Sniper Rule? Also, they can take Squad Wide Melta Bombs, something standard troops cant do.

[Gorgoff]

Yes, of course, but 8 dudes with Sniperbolters gain ~ two rending shots. Maybe one more with BS5. I don't think that makes them WAY better. Unless you fight other stuff then MEQs of course. But even against Orks it'll be better to field more Boltguns then taking Vets with Bolters.

Don't get me wrong. Vets are good. Vets with Boltguns are nice but I think they can be way better if you use them to outflank.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Sniper's there to take down MC's like Castellax or even the harder units like Thallax. Vets are becoming better and better with each new Mechanicum addition. Cybernetic Resilience has no effect on Sniper, only Poison/Fleshbane.

 

It is one of these reasons why banestrike ammunition sucks. If anyone gets Sniper purely for the AP2 hit, unless you have literally hundreds of shots, it's not that effective. 16 Bolter shots is 14 hits, 7 wounds (1 AP2), 3 failed saves, and then the heavy bolters deal 5 hits, 2-3 wounds, maybe one more failed save, which on a 4 wound model, kills it. Then, in CC, they can pile in, and offload with maybe 9 meltabomb attacks and 3 Power fist attacks for 6 hits, 4 wounds and maybe 4 failed saves from the former, with 2 hits, maybe 2 wounds from the fist, likely failing both Shielding saves.

 

That's 2 Dead Castellax from a 265pt unit in one turn. Sure, the return attacks would possibly kill a couple, but in an IF PotL list you should have multiple units similar to that. IF get the better deal out of it due to maybe 3 more hits which is maybe 2 more wounds caused per phase, but the same applies to any Vet units.

 

Outflank? Unless you have Acute Senses, I'd rather not risk a short range unit such as one whose maximum move and fire range is 18". If you want to give them a paper skinned Rhino, sure, I guess. It at least gives you another Havoc Launcher, or something (remember that tank HB's are not BS5, because all those targeting matrices in tanks suddenly make it harder to aim, obviously), but... yeah. I'd rather have the unit static and plinking off wounds.

 

The difference between the lists will be that you'll need to account for more Anti-TEQ infantry supporting units (so Scorpius, Quad Mortars, Melta/Plasma Predators, or even a couple of cheap assault Terminator units (i.e, literally a Terminator unit with maybe a couple of chainfists and either Iliastus, or Plasma), or legion dependent units; ie Mor Deythan, Tyrants, Chainglaive heavy Night Raptors, Templars)

[depthcharge12]

WE vets outflanking are pretty good, they would be better with the WE rite of war, but then you already pay the 3 troop choice tax.

 

Give them two melta guns (AC is dying off plus Sicarans and dreads don't have it, but are a mainstay), trade their chainswords for axes (really useful vs SA and AM), and give them a smattering of power weapons.

 

They have 5 attacks each on the charge and can destroy most backfield units.

[Gorgoff]

With the old CSM Codex I used outflanking Vets in a rhino from time to time and was pretty happy about the results.

In maelstrom missions it is very usefull to get a small unit in the backfield of your opponent. Or get a rockit launcher or two in the side/back armour of is vehicles.

By the way, Hesh, you can't shoot with your Boltgun and go into cc afterwards, unless you play Iron Warriors. ;)

So you can kill one Castellax, but get killed yourself. That's not a good trade.

But I don't want to make a big discussion out of it.

Veteran Squads are good. You can tailor them how you need them and can adebt them to your Legion and your army which gives you some tactical flexability which other troop choices lack.

[defl0]

Well on the math hammer side of the equation I think you are missing the point. 

 

No. Vets are not as efficient when shooting as tacs. 

 

BUT. 10 tacs with extra hth wpn = 170 pts. 10 vets = 200 pts and comes with the hth wpns. So you are spending 30 points for 10 extra attacks. 

 

If you think about something like Raven Guard that get to infiltrate them in, hth is a solid option. Not to mention they can take 2 special weapons, which works really well with a rhino.

 

Now take 60 of them with fearless, melta bombs and a couple hidden power axes in rhinos and you have only spent ~ 1700pts and they are camping on you back porch...

 

Seriously. if they go first expect 60 fearless bodies, which can double tap with 120 bolter shots, that will out grind most units in hth and that ALL have melta bombs... 

 

It's a scary ass list concept against a lot of good lists. 

 

The point efficiency with vets is that they threaten pretty much every unit. Not to mention with fearless you are not beating them in hth and running them down like tac squads. You have grind through all 60 of those bastards.

[Brofist]

60 bodies for 1700 points? If you really wanted that many bodies, tacticals get you there for just 750, leaving ~1000 to spend on more point effective units. Vets are better than tacticals, but they cost more and will die just the same.

 

They have their uses though. I really hadn't considered the sniper IF combo you brought up. 

[Amadeo]

Question concerning Sniper rule: Does models with this rule all get Rending also, or is it just specific weapons with sniper already in their profile?

[Slips]

Its not the rending rule per se but it pretty much is. Per your actual question, models with the Sniper rule or weapons with the Sniper rule confer it. In this case its the unit that has the rule so all the weapons they shoot with have the sniper rule.

[Emperor's Furor]

Sniper only gives you precision shot and always wounds on 4s, it no longer gives you rending, the weapon itself has to be sniper to get a weaker form of rending now. At least that was how I perceived the wording. If having sniper really does make even your wound rolls of 6 become ap2 then that would be good, I'm just not sure.

[redmapa]

It doesnt give rending per se but it does make any to wound roll of 6 into AP2.