Prot Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Hey guys, This is a bit of a different request, and to be frank I'm not exactly sure where to go with this, but here goes nothing... We are having a campaign that would be perfect for me to reintroduce chaos. I want to be competitive, but not at the total cost of playing my army. Historically as some of you may or may not know, the army I've been working on is Crimson Slaughter (they are the only non-heresy era Chaos force that interests me.) Here's the meat of my question: What is the best, all around HQ? Non daemonic, non-bike. I know the non-bike is probably a deal killer.... I"ve been using Kranon for a long time, and he is limited in that he is just a dude, with a sword that needs ramping up time... So let's assume for a moment that I don't have a preference for a specific Legion/Chapter. But there are some things I would like to emphasize: I do prefer a close combat dude. I do perfer armies that can do well in close combat. the HQ could be a sorc, marked or unmarked. The HQ could be named or generic. What would you folks suggest? I have this opportunity to go a new direction and I have a lot of unpainted models but it will start with an HQ. Every week I can add something to this but the cool thing about the campaign is its small enough that I might be able to pull this off until I can build it up. But what I don't want is another mediocre army that doesn't work... Ever since I sold my Iron Warriors it feels like that's what I've been trapped in. 'Pretty' chaos armies that get hammered.... (My IW I just played what I felt like, but it worked out more times that you'd think in my favour.) I'd appreicate what you guys think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
thraxdown Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Khârn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3964974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disciple of Caliban Sgt Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Hey prot, Something I have been thinking of is a Nurgle Sorc on Palanguin with all the trimings. Add the Prophet of Voices and put him in a large group of Possessed. While possessed aren't the greatest they would do well with a T5 2+ and give him a 4++ I like the sword personally from Crimson Slaughter and whatever else you feel like. I mean that's a Four wound monster with high potential give him enough wound soaks with possessed and an ok hand to hand unit. Or a Land Raider but I would footslog with some other fast threats. Daemon engines etc. I know we lose out on a WS point but honestly the Sorc should cover most hand to hand and the Toughness plus wounds should leave him to do some good damage. Of course not considered very competitive depending upon your meta but I bet some people could get quite the mileage out of this guy. Be prepared to spend 200 points on him though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3964975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Best all around HQ is probably going to be a lord or sorcerer, dark apostle or warpsmith just can't do as much. Since you prefer assault, I'd recommend a lord. Bike of course is the best load out, but if you're not going to do a bike than I might try a lord in a land raider-either with some terminators in terminator armor, or just power armor with a chosen assault unit. Axe of blind fury is my personal favorite for a cc weapon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3964979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bozo69pd Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Bike is a good loadout because it has jink. I play mono Nurgle so its my only assaulty mobile option for a lord or sorc. Not the best though, I believe Khorn juggerlord with his axe and chaos spawn is the best. With CS supplement though you could do slanesh lord on steed with that slayers sword and daemon heart and all the rest of kranons load out. That would be expensive but totally tits. Run that with chaos spawn as well. Slanesh spawn are good too because it makes them initiative 4... this means that they strike simultaneous to SM and before AM! Its important to get your hits in because every spawn model that is lost loses you alot of attacks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3965022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 My two most used HQs is a lord and sorcerer are on bikes. Since I go with the CS supplement I don't have models for the daemon weapons. I usually use a fistyclaws combo (somtimes the CS artifact wep) on the lord with the daemonheart, and force axe on the sorcerer. My thirdly used HQ though is a khorne lord on jugger with fistyclaws and daemonheart...he's a beast! ...but a non-bike one? Well, sorcerer or lord is still at the top I'd say, with warpsmith close behind because of what he unlocks in IA13 (multiple infernal relics, nobody gets eaten in daemonically possessed transports he's in), and he's still no slouch in cc with his 6 poweraxe attacks on the charge and 2+ save...though I'd keep him as a second HQ choice, not a first one... Khârn obviously, is a beast. Kills a Imperial Knight per round of combat statistically! CS has artefacts that can make a sorcerer buff-bot on foot with divination, or an assaulty daemon summoning prophet sorcerer. Either way if you want an assaulty HQ without bikes, I'd say you need an assault vehicle. A land raider, storm raven or dreadclaw would be nice I guess... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3965135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiringchaoschampion Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 For me its a lord and sorceror either both on foot or the lord with a jump pack Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3965139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 AoBF or CS Lord, L3 Biomancy Sorcerer with Familiar, Khârn... I don't think you can go too wrong there . I've been taking a Dark Apostle a lot lately, not a CC monster at all but buffs units in melee nicely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3965170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Slaanesh steed / Khorne jugger or jump pack for the mobility. Then Kranon's stuff. If you go the daemonic mounts' way, then throw in a bunch of Chaos Spawns for the extra wounds and fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3965182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordJushur Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Has anyone used a Steed of Slaanesh mounted lord/sorc with a unit of spawn/bikes to out flank? If so what is the best combo? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3965195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castigator Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I've tried it with Bikers/Spawn but find that it wastes their speed and the threat potential that Spawn/Bikers often bring when they start on the table. I mainly use my Slaanesh Lord on Steed with 10 CSM's armed with 2 Meltas and a combi-melta/lightning claw champion. It usually works great if the enemy has a static backline. I've found that a scoring unit with the Steed Lord isn't as big a loss to my battle plan if they turn up late, they can still claim objectives, take out a vehicle or get me Linebreaker. Obviously Bikers or Spawn can do this as well, but personally I think their roles are better suited to tarpitting, counter-charging, area denial or forcing the enemy to react to them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3965251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
40kChrista Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I've been running MoK or MoS Lords with Demon Weapons and I've been pretty happy with how they have been working. For Sorcs it's been either unmarked, Lvl 3, in Termie Armor or MoN, Palanquin, Spinshiver Blade go for Biomancy. Lately I have been kicking around the idea of a PotV Sorc with 9 Possessed in a Dreadclaw, so will probably happen at some point or another. *I know none of these are terribly efficient for play OR points, so I guess I suffer form "pretty CSM" army syndrome ;-)" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3965253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bozo69pd Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I didn't list the PotV HQ because while it is awesome I feel the table to roll for CS is great for getting them into combat intact, but fails once they are in combat. The Vanilla CSM dex had a really good combat bonus table, but getting them to combat alive was the issue. I feel like we should have gotten the option to choose which table we roll on each turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3965296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
totgeboren Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 If you want him in power armour I think a lvl 3 sorc on foot with a familiar is probably our best all-round HQ. There is almost no list that does not beenfit from his presence. But he is not all that impressive in close combat (though biomancy+Force can give a pretty brutal fighter). A PA HQ that is not a Sorc, well, Khârn is pretty killy. A a pretty fun guy too. The basic Lord is pretty weak, at least if he is not on a bike/disc, though I have had some fun with a Lord in Termi-armour, combi-plasma, fist and MoT, though the plasma could probably be changed to a claw instead. That Lord managed to kill a Carnifex in one turn once. :) Other than that, I do have a pretty killy lord. MoT on a Disc with a Sigil (so 3++ inv), powerfist and brand. He has won me game after game, but far from what you are after. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3965297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 No discussion, honestly: Khârn The Betrayer. Really killy for his points, effective against everything and can hide in a 30 man cultist unit. I don't like playing with blobs and therefore I never include him in lists, but if you don't mind that... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3965304 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 gees guys I gotta applaud you. There's a lot of great, great ideas in here. Here's some specifics now that so many great ideas have come to the surface: - The campaign, which I'm looking at as an opportunity to "refresh" my chaos experiences, is only starting the first month at 750 pts. So some of the cool HQ choices, which are definitely valid, are a little pricey for that point value. (Sorry I thought I mentioned that in my first post but I didn't.) - I always hated cultists... always. I always wanted my CSM to be solely represented by CSM, not cultists, and not space hippies (daemons). BUT I confess to 'accidentally' stumbling on the power of Cultists while playing the Helcult formation. They lose ObSec, and even though I had played this formation MANY times, it was only when I made the squads huge, and kept them double armed, rushed them up with the Helbrute that I discovered what a royal PITA they can be for my opponents. This made me think the Dark Apostle suggestion (perhaps since I already have Crimson Slaughter using the Cursed acrozius ) to have some Zealot, ObSec in the army at 750 pts and have enough left over for a 3 Helbrute, deep striking formation. - Pound for pound, I've always had a deep enjoyment of Kharne and back when I tried playing pure World Eaters he always one of the most satisfying characters to get into CC. But this is a shooty game now.... we will be playing a 50/50 mix of ObSec and straight killy missions from the book. - For the most part, I don't want to use a bike or fixed mount for the HQ simply because it limits my list building options in the future with this HQ. - The Sorc is really an interesting one too. 3 WC's, familiar, and the option to get into Crimson Slaughter toys, and perhaps have him summoning at 750 could be an option, but when 7th first came out, at larger games, I did try this and found it kind of fickle (especially since you can't summon from vehicles in 7th.) - The Sorc w/Balestar does create a foundation for a shooty Chaos army, but I just don't think (I could be wrong) that we can do this well enough in 7th with Crons, Tau, Astra and Eldar just beating the crud out of us in that area... - The basic Lord. For me this is Kranon, and I have played him a LOT. With varying levels of success. In a rhino, in a landraider. On foot. With Possessed (troops). With Possessed in a Landraider, with STEALTH, is really awesome, but a lot of points and a gamble on getting stealth for the LR. (As a side note, I did learn keeping him basic and putting him with Draznicht's squad (Preferred Enemy), they are actually a VERY good CC unit. Don't underestimate this unit. It may never get to its destination if your opponent knows what he's doing.) I found my long experience with Kranon (since he was one of my 2 standard HQ's for most of 7th) to show me that in many ways, he feels like an overpriced Khârn. Which takes me full circle to.....Khârn. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Right now I think I'm leaning towards Khârn. Point for point, he might be one of the better values as some of you pointed out. But he's actually also flexible since I could use him in a Cultist Blob. (He would make them fearless) or still use him in a high end squad (as mentioned) or even a World Eater squad if I felt truly fluffy (I realized that would be considered quite uncompetitive.) Ways I could field him at 750 pts: 1. 20 man cultist blob? (Front lined, behind spawns?) 2. I like the idea of the MoK Mutilators in a Landraider... mostly because I've never done it and I actually have unpainted Mutilators. However, that would probably be my whole army at about 750. 3. Khârn and World Eaters. Basic 5 man squads in Rhino's/behind Rhino's. 4. Khârn and vanilla CSM? Double armed CSM? Trying to maximize 3+ save numbers? What do you guys think would work best at such low points? I'm wondering if one of these options (probably Cultist) would give me the opportunity to put in either a 3 Helbrute formation alongside, or maybe a single Maulerfiend would fit in at front of the squad? ++EDIT++ Re-reading this thread there are so many good ideas I haven't tried. A Khorne steed is REALLY tempting as well, I just don't know if I could actually make it valid in such a low points scenario since we are starting the first month at 750. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3965335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redtoof Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I usually go with 2 sorcerers or Khârn and a sorcerer (and occasionally Huron, but since ive started making more use of deep strike his infiltrate is less appealing to me). If you want one Lord who, for a reasonable price, can wreck stuff in close combat, Khârn is where to go. Sorcerers are great for the powers, but unless you take bio any and roll the right powers (or you get the perils result that buffs you) they are rubbish in combat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3965384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 Okay, kind of a crazy thought but the hobby side of me kind of wants to try something I've not done in a few editions of 40K... What about a Lord with a jump pack joining either Raptors or Warp Talons? (I know everyone hates Warp Talons, but humour me. ) Using Crimson Slaughter supplement.... can I build a basic, killy Jump Pack lord? Bad idea? Otherwise it seems like the bike is the best route for a non-named HQ. For named HQ's it seems Khârn is the man. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3965440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bozo69pd Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I always wanted to do a Night Lord raptor assault army. Slanesh marks claws, all around, and charging at 3+ armor. I can't see them surviving to get into combat without belakor giving them invisibilty and/or shrouded though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3965636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Okay, kind of a crazy thought but the hobby side of me kind of wants to try something I've not done in a few editions of 40K... What about a Lord with a jump pack joining either Raptors or Warp Talons? (I know everyone hates Warp Talons, but humour me. ) Using Crimson Slaughter supplement.... can I build a basic, killy Jump Pack lord? Bad idea? Otherwise it seems like the bike is the best route for a non-named HQ. For named HQ's it seems Khârn is the man. Khârn is indeed the Man. No argument there. I'd like him to have a better Invuln save, but he can't be perfect, I guess. I've run Sorcerers and Lords with jump packs, both with Raptors and with Warp Talons. I think Sorcerors work better with Raptors and Lords can go either way. On the flip side, Raptors don't need an HQ to work, while Warp Talons don't usually work without one. Truthfully, weird as it may seem, I've won more games in 7th by ditching HQs and spending the points on another squad instead. My preference lately has been shooty, and HQs don't usually help my plans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3965673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucio Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Chosen with Draznicht's Ravagers to accompany Khârn, give a couple Plasma pistols to make use of their re roll of 1's in the shooting phase and something useful to do when they disembark. The rest get your prefered choice of a power weapon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3965909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Jackal Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Okay, kind of a crazy thought but the hobby side of me kind of wants to try something I've not done in a few editions of 40K... What about a Lord with a jump pack joining either Raptors or Warp Talons? (I know everyone hates Warp Talons, but humour me. ) Using Crimson Slaughter supplement.... can I build a basic, killy Jump Pack lord? Bad idea? Otherwise it seems like the bike is the best route for a non-named HQ. For named HQ's it seems Khârn is the man. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. Why not? Grab 2 Gifts for the unit champion too. How about Cypher? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3965923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiringchaoschampion Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 1 hq im personally looking forward to trying is a unmarked sorceror level 3 sigil vets familiar spine shiver swotd force axe. he will most likely roll on biomancy tbh Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3966031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted March 2, 2015 Author Share Posted March 2, 2015 On the flip side, Raptors don't need an HQ to work, while Warp Talons don't usually work without one. Truthfully, weird as it may seem, I've won more games in 7th by ditching HQs and spending the points on another squad instead. My preference lately has been shooty, and HQs don't usually help my plans. - What HQ do you run with Warp Talons. I've been thinking of starting a World Eater Raptor Cult, but it dies on paper because it seems horrendously ineffective on the table top. - By 'ditching' HQ's I assume you mean spending as little as possible? That's kind of why I was thinking Dark Apostle. Just something cheap to make the cheapest troops.... usable. It seems it's the way 7th ed has gone. You need more stuff on the table, less eiite-ish stuff... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3966502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Prot are you still trying to fit this in a 750 list? Cause raptors get pretty expensive don't they? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304098-a-great-all-around-chaos-csm-hq-starting-from-scratch/#findComment-3966594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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