A 'great' all around Chaos CSM HQ: Starting from scratch

[Prot]

Yes but Raptors aren't bad... only about 130~140 but the Warp Talons are looking 180ish (vanilla).

The thing is Warp Talons just look awesome to me.... And I have the models built! lol (Just being honest).

Man I'd love to clobber a bunch of 'important marine types' with a squad of Talons, or come in and 'blind' a score of Astra, but let's be honest, with my luck, I'd end up facing Ork bikers, scatter 12" the wrong direction, get assaulted, and wonder why I brought them.

I am trying to covertly acquire research for my next venture for a 750 pt campaign I'm running. The decision is between:

[Brother Ambroz]

Well you could run a squad of warptalons with a jump pack lord, though the lord should probably have some kind of AP2 weaponry. You'd just have to be super cheap with your troops.

[Lucio]

You could try my Crimson Slaughter Tzeentch force idea

 

Basic setup is Prophet of the Voices Sorcerer, who does his best to get Cursed Earth, and the Maelfic Primas powers. Summons Pink Horrors, who in turn, draw Maelfic powers to give you disposable summoners.

 

Cheap Chaos Lord with Power Axe, Melta Bombs and Jump Pack rides along with a small squad of Warp Talons, if you can afford it give them MoT to get between a 4++ and 3++ save depending on whether the Sorcerer can bless them with Cursed Earth.

 

Possessed Bodyguard for Sorcerers, if you take MoT again, potentially get 2++ saves for extra frustration.

 

Remaining choices are Cultists for cheap fodder, Obliterators for more AP2 choices, and a Rhino with Havoc launcher for a bit of anti-infantry firepower.

 

Force would look something like this

 

Chaos Lord - MoT, AoDG, Power Axe, Jump Pack, Melta bombs - 120

Sorcerer - PotV. Lvl 2 - 115

20 x Cultists, 8 Autoguns, 2 Heavy Stubbers, 10 Auto Pistols - 108

5 x Possessed, MoT, Rhino w. Havoc and Dirge Caster - 207

5 x Warp Talons, MoT - 190

 

Should be 750 on the nose. Gives you a relatively tough force, at least 4++ save on all the important models, and 2 decent assault units and an objective holding blob of Cultists.

 

A little unorthodox for sure, but with some luck summoning daemons, can cause some real trouble.

[Prot]

I really like the core of what you guys are talking about.... 

 

You could try my Crimson Slaughter Tzeentch force idea

Basic setup is Prophet of the Voices Sorcerer, who does his best to get Cursed Earth, and the Maelfic Primas powers. Summons Pink Horrors, who in turn, draw Maelfic powers to give you disposable summoners.

Cheap Chaos Lord with Power Axe, Melta Bombs and Jump Pack rides along with a small squad of Warp Talons, if you can afford it give them MoT to get between a 4++ and 3++ save depending on whether the Sorcerer can bless them with Cursed Earth.

Possessed Bodyguard for Sorcerers, if you take MoT again, potentially get 2++ saves for extra frustration.

Remaining choices are Cultists for cheap fodder, Obliterators for more AP2 choices, and a Rhino with Havoc launcher for a bit of anti-infantry firepower.

Force would look something like this

Chaos Lord - MoT, AoDG, Power Axe, Jump Pack, Melta bombs - 120
Sorcerer - PotV. Lvl 2 - 115
20 x Cultists, 8 Autoguns, 2 Heavy Stubbers, 10 Auto Pistols - 108
5 x Possessed, MoT, Rhino w. Havoc and Dirge Caster - 207
5 x Warp Talons, MoT - 190

Should be 750 on the nose. Gives you a relatively tough force, at least 4++ save on all the important models, and 2 decent assault units and an objective holding blob of Cultists.

A little unorthodox for sure, but with some luck summoning daemons, can cause some real trouble.

 

I love this idea too. It's very, very different from what I'd normally play and the bonus for me is it incorporates a few units I would have a real reason to build and play.

 

I tried summoning a while ago when 7th just came out, it didn't go too well....

 

I am thinking of potentially tweaking this list. I love that it lets me use Warp Talons, Possessed (bonus since I actually have some from my CS) and I get to use my Sorc.....

 

Sorc: Prophet of the Voices, MoT: 105

 

(I don't have any pink horrors... all I own for daemons is a squad of Daemonettes...) If he goes with Possessed, do they walk behind the Rhino so he can summon?

 

Possessed x 5. MoT + Rhino (35): 190 

 

Cultists x 16: 74

 

Warp Talons x 5: 160

 

Chaos Lord , Jump Pack, Sigil of Corruption, Power Axe: 120.

 

Okay I stripped out some toys, and 4 cultists. I would have loved to keep the mark on the Talons, (not sure about the lord) and I would have loved to keep the Rhino juiced up BUT I'm afraid even at 750 pts only  have one AV12 vehicle is going to give me problems......

 

These changes do allow me to add:

 

Helbrute, MM, PF: 100

 

TOTAL: 749

 

There's a lot of trade off, and I don't even know if I can pull off the summoning with a 2 wc Sorc without any familiar... it could be a real crap shoot.... In the end, to be honest I can either cash in the Lord or maybe the Helbrute? And then could go to 3WC on the sorc, and leave the warp talons to their own demise? Perhaps dropping the Helbrute alone would let me do that and maybe add a second Rhino? (actually that wouldn't be legal... ugh).

 

So is this trade off worth it?

 

I have made 750 in crons and Ultra's, and it appears like those lists would shoot the warp balls out of this one.... Just in theory though. At 750 toys are tough but I do appreciate there are a lot of very cool units in this small list thanks to the Cultists. Thought?

[Lucio]

The Pink Horrors are the main reason the Summoning works without a familiar. You will suffer Perils, even on a double 1 or 6 for prophet, so having a baby Psyker brotherhood to take the heat is a good thing. They're cheap cash wise to buy and quick to paint. Other than that, I like the Helbrute addition and helps cover the Rhino whilst still keeping the core. Maybe drop the Sigil on the Lord, without MoT you aren't shooting for those high ++ saves anyway and get a bonus Mastery level or Terminator armour on the Sorcerer (as you're right about walking behind it)

[Prot]

Alright so maybe I'm not sure how this works then... again I haven't tried summoning since the opening weeks of 7th but if I'm a daemon, I thought I only perils on box cars?

 

And I guess I don't understand the Horrors... So what do you mean by a 'baby psyker brotherhood taking the heat'?

[Warsmith Aznable]

- What HQ do you run with Warp Talons. I've been thinking of starting a World Eater Raptor Cult, but it dies on paper because it seems horrendously ineffective on the table top.

 

- By 'ditching' HQ's I assume you mean spending as little as possible? That's kind of why I was thinking Dark Apostle. Just something cheap to make the cheapest troops.... usable. It seems it's the way 7th ed has gone. You need more stuff on the table, less eiite-ish stuff...

I'm a non-tourney player who doesn't fine tune single list concepts so I can't give an exact load out and stand behind it. If I run a Lord like this I do it cheap as possible, with gear based on whether or not I felt like giving the Warp Talons a mark. And then I prepare for the Talons to draw a lot of heat and probably get shot up before they can get make it to assault, because nobody who has had a squad shredded by Talons ever forgets it. Mostly I still bother with them occasionally because I like my converted models...

 

By ditching HQs I mean not even having one and going Unbound. It's really been spoiling me because now I get to run Elite squads and not worry so much about how much their wargear costs. An extra squad of Chosen or Havocs packing plasma or melta always seems to make me happier than any regular HQ ever has.

 

Again, FWIW. Lately I'm playing shooty MSU and trying my damnedest to outrun the assault deathstars of my local environs. YMMV

[Lucio]

Pink Horrors are psykers depending on squad size, the Chaos daemon FAQ opened up Maelfic as a valid choice, so when you summon them, they count as a level 1 Psyker and can take a Maelfic power (plus Primas), meaning you can use your warp dice to have them do the casting instead of your sorcerer. Since they're summoned in the first place, you're not risking much if they perils and die.

[the jeske]

Mealstorm in or not?

Any specific scenarios?

For 750pts I would go with

2 units of 5 csm in rhinos with a melta and combi flamer

Then two sorc with familiars lvl 3

Rest of points go in to nurgle spawns.

 

But that is only if you don't want to run knights or bikers like everyone else does at 750pts. I don't think there is a good chaos list for 750 we ain't choppy or shoty enough for that. Add problems with dealing with something like 2-3 tyrants or a WK/knight and it ain't very fun to run chaos.

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

Yeah I'll be honest I'm just looking at my army and as much as I love the thought of mono khorne we need to get bodies on the board so I'm looking at spending no more than say 150 on a HQ cultists + true grit csm as troops just to give me a decent shooting element that's fairly flexible

[Trevak Dal]

 

On the flip side, Raptors don't need an HQ to work, while Warp Talons don't usually work without one.

 

Truthfully, weird as it may seem, I've won more games in 7th by ditching HQs and spending the points on another squad instead. My preference lately has been shooty, and HQs don't usually help my plans.

 

 

- What HQ do you run with Warp Talons. I've been thinking of starting a World Eater Raptor Cult, but it dies on paper because it seems horrendously ineffective on the table top.

 

- By 'ditching' HQ's I assume you mean spending as little as possible? That's kind of why I was thinking Dark Apostle. Just something cheap to make the cheapest troops.... usable. It seems it's the way 7th ed has gone. You need more stuff on the table, less eiite-ish stuff...

 

 

Running with Warp Talons, I like a Lord-he has grenades and a Higher initiative, and with something like the Mark of Khorne and a pair of lightning claws and the Horns (or the Killstreak Sword from the crimson slaughter + a pistol) he can "kick the door" while the warp talons "catch up".  Warp Talons in my experience (I've only used them a few times) are better for bullying a squad.

Raptors have worked for me by taking them along with guys in rhinos-a trick I learned from playing Tau (Crisis suits behind the Mobile Terrain/Gunships to pop out when necessary)

 

Rhinos are a lot less durable than Devilfish, but you can still use them for mobile cover.  I run 2 units of Raptors behind 2 rhinos.  It gives me good enough protection as they are moving up the board.  Remember when using Raptors that if you give them a special weapon, it doesn't take away their Bolt Pistols or close combat weapons so you get 1 base + 1 for being double armed still.  Meltaguns are Better Plasma Pistols that happen to be cheaper (and safer) to boot, and the only thing that I recall that they can't hurt is the Avatar of Khaine.

 

The Icon of Wrath is great with Raptors, because it allows them to re-roll their charge distance, so you can move the full 12" in the movement phase and still get a re-roll on charge distance.

 

 

Another thing worth asking is about the nature of the Campaign itself:

 

Like, are you expecting Chapter Masters and Supreme Ethereals and Knight Houses to be out with the ah..."Scouting force" of 750 points, or is this going to be something where the events and outcomes effect following games and everybody starts off with low powered guys and go from there?

[Prot]

Pink Horrors are psykers depending on squad size, the Chaos daemon FAQ opened up Maelfic as a valid choice, so when you summon them, they count as a level 1 Psyker and can take a Maelfic power (plus Primas), meaning you can use your warp dice to have them do the casting instead of your sorcerer. Since they're summoned in the first place, you're not risking much if they perils and die.

 

-Ah ok. I didn't know that. If I go this route, I'll definitely pick a box of pink up! I keep looking at summoning though and I'm not getting a warm fuzzy feeling out of it. Aside from the cover save improvement (which is HUGE for an army with Possessed, and even Warp Talons, and potentially summoned stuff), there is little utility in it and so many summoning abilities that I just can't see using... The primaris yes, but the other ones? I don't even know what most of the space hippies do in game, so I'm not even sure what direction to go there. 

 

To be honest looking at the benefits... Cursed Earth would be paramount to a Possessed, Warp Talon style army. (Especially at bigger games where you can get some MoT rolling as well.) I do like the theme... perhaps part of the problem is the commitment to Malefic is heavy.  You need lots of dice... and if you're summoning Pink Horrors just to summon more stuff... I'm not sure that's reasonable. How has it worked for you?

 

Mealstorm in or not?

Any specific scenarios?

For 750pts I would go with

2 units of 5 csm in rhinos with a melta and combi flamer

Then two sorc with familiars lvl 3

Rest of points go in to nurgle spawns.

 

But that is only if you don't want to run knights or bikers like everyone else does at 750pts. I don't think there is a good chaos list for 750 we ain't choppy or shoty enough for that. Add problems with dealing with something like 2-3 tyrants or a WK/knight and it ain't very fun to run chaos.

 

Maelstrom and normal kill games. 2 (1 of each type) are played every week.

 

I'm trying really hard to avoid the old bike lists... I did that for several months when the codex first came out and am trying new stuff for fun while trying to maybe catch a win or two along the way. (The campaign won't allow super heavies til week 4. As it begins to move into escalation mode.)

 

Yeah I'll be honest I'm just looking at my army and as much as I love the thought of mono khorne we need to get bodies on the board so I'm looking at spending no more than say 150 on a HQ cultists + true grit csm as troops just to give me a decent shooting element that's fairly flexible

 

Agreed. It's fun on paper but just way too small for 7th and Maelstrom in particular. If I look at what's big in my meta, spammy big lists with a lot of dung flingers. Add Necrons to that and it's REALLY hard to be competitive when you're trying to win an assault match in a game that favours shooting and you've got half the models of your opponent.  ;) 

 

Not trying to be negative, just keeping myself in check because I am always looking for that assault angle myself.

 

 

  Remember when using Raptors that if you give them a special weapon, it doesn't take away their Bolt Pistols or close combat weapons so you get 1 base + 1 for being double armed still.  Meltaguns are Better Plasma Pistols that happen to be cheaper (and safer) to boot, and the only thing that I recall that they can't hurt is the Avatar of Khaine.

The Icon of Wrath is great with Raptors, because it allows them to re-roll their charge distance, so you can move the full 12" in the movement phase and still get a re-roll on charge distance.

 

 

Another thing worth asking is about the nature of the Campaign itself:

 

Like, are you expecting Chapter Masters and Supreme Ethereals and Knight Houses to be out with the ah..."Scouting force" of 750 points, or is this going to be something where the events and outcomes effect following games and everybody starts off with low powered guys and go from there?

 

 

I do like the idea of Raptors, don't get me wrong. I only played my old metal buggers but got rid of them, and haven't built new ones since. I do realize they are point for point a better buy and more flexible than Warp Talons.  I really want to see if I can make my Warp Talons work. I confess to only using them when the models came out and being shocked at how tough they were to use for their points, and somewhat poor rules (Blind on 6"? Time for new batteries in those flashlights. No Frag/Krak? srsly?)  

 

BUT I love the models. I put a squad of the new plastics together and never used them again! 

 

The only favorable idea I can think of here is being Daemon, like my Possessed (troops), and my Sorc, then this does make Malefic's Cursed Earth a very interesting prospect. I realize that this is nearly impossible to get working because I'll have to be lucky to get the power... if I do I'll pick up a lotto ticket on the way home that night. ;)

 

Campaign: I don't think there will be Tau player(s).  Chapter masters are very possible, knight houses are not. (no Super Heavies til week 4 as it all escalates.)

[the jeske]

It would probably be better to run them as a deathstar.

two mini cultist units, 2 sorc to invisibility and the rest of points in talons. The sorc with force ax and force mace combo. MoS on the mace one and undivided on the talons and the ax sorc.

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

Indeed tbh I'm thinking that even not taking any cult units may be best the only chaos specific things I'll be using are daemon engines daemon princes and possibly spawn. HQ wise I'm thinking cheap lord with black mace combi plasma and aura of dark glory + cheap level 3 sorceror with aura and familiar

[Lucio]

I've found that typically in a 5 turn game, I suffer one Perils result, get the Primas off twice and Cursed Earth off 3 turns out of 5. That was using a level 3 Sorceror and a level 1 backup from a 5 man squad of 1k Sons. The Pink Horrors themselves killed a handful of cheap troops in assault and with a Tzeentchian daemon psychic power blast took a couple of wounds off the Lord.

 

Your right that Cursed Earth makes or breaks the utility of your sorcerer, if you land it you can just simply cast that every turn.

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

Yeah that's my thoughts on malefic too if you get cursed earth its straight up brutal

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Prot,

 

Now that I realize you are trying 750 pts I would say try something like Krannon with a Jump Pack. The sword and a Raptor squad would be perfect for the Sword if you think about it. You don't want to put the squad against any hard targets especially not initially and let the Lord and squad rip and tear through a squad or two and the sword is charged up and you can take on anything and have the mobility to do so. Or I would use a Power Sword with the Warp Talons in a smaller squad as stated I would use Khorne for Raptors and Tzeentch for Warp Talons.

[Prot]

I'm going to be honest, I feel like I can't do very well with anything Chaos I come up with lately. Just bad luck? Perhaps... but marine based armies, I've just been getting utterly pasted against some pretty strong Orks, Nids, Dark Eldar, etc. 

 

Don't even get me started on the Luky stik / Feel No Pain /Warboss biker squad guy I keep playing... ugh.

 

Anyway, I did not feel good about the summoning idea as I don't know what the heck the daemons do and I have horrible luck for summoning.

 

Long story short, I looked at my 750 list ideas, and I think they all sucked. So I built one list and posted it in the list section before the Campaign game.... I decided to go with my list, knowing it was too late for feedback.

 

At 750 I felt a lot of my 'fun' units were just too horrible to be any good, so I TRIED to be more efficient with the list, remove 'fun' stuff, and make it at least somewhat competitive.

 

I took an HQ of a Sorc with 3 Warp Charges, Balestar of Manon and the Sigil of corruption. I took Divination.

 

I tied him to a 15 man Cultist squad. I took a second 15 cultist squad. Those were my ObSec troops.

 

4 Bikers, 2 melta guns.

 

and a 3 man Helbrute formation. 

 

In turn 2 the formation came in.

 

I randomly ended up getting an Ork opponent.... we played an Eternal war mission with hidden point objectives The Scouring I think it was called.  I hadn't played it in a while since I normally play Maelstrom...

 

I got smoked really bad. I never killed a unit. In 3 turns I only got one psker power to go off, or wasn't actually cancelled. I hate the psychic phase of this game right now. :)

 

In turn 4 I got off 3 actual powers.... I had a lot of good stuff for my cultists, re-rolls galore with all the powers, Prescience, Precog, etc, etc... heck I even got off igniting the Force Sword... but then I assaulted, and rolled snake eyes through difficult terrain to  reach him.. (I was 1" away).

 

I called it after 4. I lost all dreads, (they never killed a unit) The just died so incredibly easily. They lost hull points really easily and in close combat the Ork Nob fists just smoked them. The Ork Warboss and bike squad basically was the best thing I fought against hitting it with a dual heavy flamer on the crazed chart firing twice... got it down to 2 models, but by turn 4 I only had about 4-5 models in the table? Maybe less... He never lost a squad.

 

So I'm ditching the idea. I can't come up with anything competitive enough to... compete. 

 

If you'll recall I had a 'fun' list made earlier with 2 hq's, possessed, and Warp talons, I'm sure I would have been cleaned out worse if I could have went with that small list.

[Lucio]

Playing arm-chair tactician here, I think that the list selected lacked staying power. The troops were all vulnerable to all the incoming fire, and whilst the anti-armour threat was clear from Ork Nobs, you'd still ended up in melee with them. On top of that, it sounds like you had some bad  luck with die rolls.

 

The "fun" list we'd been discussing earlier in the thread had better staying power, pushing up the invulnerable saves to a point where you could rely on them and whilst Orks or Imperial Guard could muster the requisite number of attacks to bludgeon their way through them, it still blunts in majority of incoming fire. The downside being the low model count limits the amount of damage that can be dished out.

From this side, I'm finding in smaller games options such as Template and Blast weapons make a real difference, as does ensuring you've got some form of anti-armour option. Chaos Marines are not a numerous force, so need some form of staying power, and an ability to roll larger numbers of dice. Our ideal situation is getting CSM squads within 12" to benefit from Rapid Fire, but trying to steer clear of melee.

Terminators are definitely our friend in a small game, and can either go Combi-plasma for a turn of really nasty shooting, or a mix of combi-melta and combi-flamer for a pre-assault option. In both cases, they work well in drawing fire down on them and away from the rest of the army.

Another nasty trick in a small game is taking an Infernal Relic Predator, with a Plasma Destroyer. 3 x Str7 AP2 blast templates without get hot is just plain vicious!

[the jeske]

never take dreads. crazed or not they are just bad models. Loyalist almost never use theirs and if they do never without pods[and we don't have pods]. you were effectivly playing with a 500pts handicap in 750 game.

IMO the stuff that carries chaos right now is stuff like invisibility or combos. At 750 chaos doesn't have many combos, so the way to go was a deathstar . imagine you took the talons/terminators/bikers with 2 sorc and invisibility/shriek.

[Dallas Drake]

Hey Prot, I played a few 750 games a few weeks back in an attempt to get 5 games done in one day. I usually play 1250-1500 though and found it really hard. I took:

 

Khorne AoBF JuggerLord

2 x 10 Cultists

5 x Spawn

1 x Helblade

2 x Maulerfiend

 

Did alright against AM, SMs and Nids but got beat quite badly by Eldar. No Ork player near me.

[totgeboren]

At 750 I felt a lot of my 'fun' units were just too horrible to be any good, so I TRIED to be more efficient with the list, remove 'fun' stuff, and make it at least somewhat competitive.

 

I took an HQ of a Sorc with 3 Warp Charges, Balestar of Manon and the Sigil of corruption. I took Divination.

 

I tied him to a 15 man Cultist squad. I took a second 15 cultist squad. Those were my ObSec troops.

 

4 Bikers, 2 melta guns.

 

and a 3 man Helbrute formation. 

 

 

To be honest, I could imagine this list having a hard time against... well most stuff. Cultists are useful for two things, being meatshields for a beatstick HQ (think Khârn) or allowing your other units to not worry about securing objectives. Here they don't seem to be there for either role, but rather being front line troops, something they do rather bad.

 

Secondly, the HQ which is also a rather important model. Taking Divination means your Sorcerer is a buffer, but the rest of your list is lacking anything worth buffing. For example, CSM/Chosen with plasmaguns, or Havocs with lascannons go from ok to awesome with Perfect Timing (ignore cover). Misfortune and Noise Marines also work really well in combination (ok, a huge blob of cultists assaulting something with Misfortue cast on it can deal a lot of damage). Forewarning is really great if you have a deathstar-type unit which your opponent can't ignore. So in the list you used, the Divination Sorcerer seem a rather poor choice. Telepathy or Bio would probably be much better.

If you don't mind your opponents hating you, Malefic can break many a 750 pts games in a turn or two. Just two successful summonings means you have something like 250 pts more points than your opponent.

 

So, poor troops leading a buffer HQ without anything worthwhile to buff, and then 4 bikes. Bikes are nice, can't say anything bad about them, but they seem rather lone.

 

And then the Dread formation which I love. But it is random and only raise Dreads from 'really bad' to 'kinda bad'. Reserves are random, deep strike is random, their crazed rolls means they are random even after going through the randomness of reserves and deep strike. And they make up half the points you have available, meaning your army consists of a bunch of cultists who have to survive on their own for 2-3 turns before the Dreads can start helping out, and even when they do, they are fragile (Dreads are really fragile) and random.

 

So, all in all I would expect your army to really struggle sadly, since there is no synergy.

 

I would suggest skipping the Dreads and get more bikes. If you really want a Divination Sorcerer on foot, get some Obliterators and hope for Perfect Timing. Or skip one squad of cultists and take a squad of CSM with 2 plasmaguns and put the Sorcerer with them. Sure, basic CSM are not all that hot, but in 750 pts games their versatility can actually have an impact on the game and not just cost lots of points.

[Prot]

Playing arm-chair tactician here, I think that the list selected lacked staying power. The troops were all vulnerable to all the incoming fire, and whilst the anti-armour threat was clear from Ork Nobs, you'd still ended up in melee with them. On top of that, it sounds like you had some bad  luck with die rolls.

 

The "fun" list we'd been discussing earlier in the thread had better staying power, pushing up the invulnerable saves to a point where you could rely on them and whilst Orks

Another nasty trick in a small game is taking an Infernal Relic Predator, with a Plasma Destroyer. 3 x Str7 AP2 blast templates without get hot is just plain vicious!

 

 

Sorry, I strongly disagree. The 'staying power' you speak of is based on invulns. That's not where the game was lost. The game was lost rolling fist fulls of saves. I strongly believe the list you mention would have been tabled much sooner. At least with cultists (which were garbage) had a 5+  cover save and 30 models on the table. 

 

Feel No Pain is given out like candy to xenos. They all have access to it. The Dark Eldar player I played smoked me as well with cheap,numerous bodies and the whole bloody army is jinking, and getting FnP. I rarely 'needed' an Invuln, but what I neede was to pass about 10-15 saving throws at a time... not happening.

 

never take dreads. crazed or not they are just bad models. Loyalist almost never use theirs and if they do never without pods[and we don't have pods]. you were effectivly playing with a 500pts handicap in 750 game.

IMO the stuff that carries chaos right now is stuff like invisibility or combos. At 750 chaos doesn't have many combos, so the way to go was a deathstar . imagine you took the talons/terminators/bikers with 2 sorc and invisibility/shriek.

 

Sorcs... I dunno. I will agree the Helbrutes were complete, and utter garbage. An AV14 Battlewagon full of Tankbusta's absolutely Rick Rolled all three of them. Only one dreadnought MAYBE made his points back. 

 

But the Sorcs.. I hate them. I started out 7th thinking Psychic powers were the way to go for Chaos Space Marines, but the last several months... I despise the psychic phase. I never pass anything when I need it. I don't care what the 'math' is on it... I perils far too often, even with Balestar of Manon I can't pass anything near as often as you'd think.... 

 

Bottom line I think unless you're Grey Knights or Daemons that the Psychic phase is far too random to hang your hat on. I'm done with it after being stabbed in the back by it WAY too often. It hurts more than it helps me. 

 

 

Hey Prot, I played a few 750 games a few weeks back in an attempt to get 5 games done in one day. I usually play 1250-1500 though and found it really hard. I took:

 

Khorne AoBF JuggerLord

2 x 10 Cultists

5 x Spawn

1 x Helblade

2 x Maulerfiend

 

Did alright against AM, SMs and Nids but got beat quite badly by Eldar. No Ork player near me.

 

An Ork Biker list just destroyed me... it's uncanny how cheaply they can put together a squad of bikers, and have a Warboss with a Strength 10 Fist, and toughness 6. 

 

He auto-blicked my HQ in one shot..... stuff like Maulerfiends... I just dunno, AV 12 is such easy targets for Orks I play against. Keep in mind I lost 3 dreads in 2 turns! He swamped one dread with a ton of boyz and the invisible fist waxed me. The Tank Bustas... he's rolling fist fulls of dice to hit (the battle wagon I think has 3 missiles on it too) and  the tank Busta's have Tank Hunter so he's re-rolling the pens.... I mean he's probably strippipng 3-4 hullpoints every time he looked at a dread.

 

I played a lot of games this week against a lot of different armies. 

 

The Ork guy I challenged to another smaller game. I took a modest Necron (No Decurion) and had much better results. 

 

++edit++

Sorry just saw this post:

 

Juggerlord's sound cool. I don't own one. I've been using ol' crappy Kranon too long though... It's time for a change. The Crimson Slaughter sorc is getting retired too. I have had far to many fail games with him too.

 

 

Secondly, the HQ which is also a rather important model. Taking Divination means your Sorcerer is a buffer, but the rest of your list is lacking anything worth buffing. For example, CSM/Chosen with plasmaguns, or Havocs with lascannons go from ok to awesome with Perfect Timing (ignore cover). Misfortune and Noise Marine also work really well in combination (ok, a huge blob of cultists assaulting something with Misfortue cast on it can deal a lot of damage). Forewarning is really great if you have a deathstar-type unit which your opponent can't ignore. So in the list you used, the Divination Sorcerer seem a rather poor choice. Telepathy or Bio would probably be much better.

If you don't mind your opponents hating you, Malefic can break many a 750 pts games in a turn or two. Just two successful summonings means you have something like 250 pts more points than your opponent.

 

So, poor troops leading a buffer HQ without anything worthwhile to buff, and then 4 bikes. Bikes are nice, can't say anything bad about them, but they seem rather lone.

 

And then the Dread formation which I love. But it is random and only raise Dreads from 'really bad' to 'kinda bad'. 

I would suggest skipping the Dreads and get more bikes. If you really want a Divination Sorcerer on foot, get some Obliterators and hope for Perfect Timing. Or skip one squad of cultists and take a squad of CSM with 2 plasmaguns and put the Sorcerer with them. Sure, basic CSM are not all that hot, but in 750 pts games their versatility can actually have an impact on the game and not just cost lots of points.

 

 

- Actually Divination on the 15 man cultist squad would have been great. I only passed it once. When I did re-rolling all hits, firing overwatch at normal BS, re-rolling all to hit, and saves for the Sorc was actually a tremendous buff for a very cheap squad..... I can't pass it more than once, it is useless even if it was directed at the Emperor... it's gotta pass.

 

- The bikes were out manned. It was the only speed I had in the list. 2 metlas failed to kill anything, tank busta's were a real problem. He avoided my bikes with his by clustering a big boy mob on the 4 bikers. His fist and (as usual) weight of  numbers decimated the bikes. 

 

- Yes, the dreads are out of the list for good. This takes away the last 'fun' thing I had tried to add, but it serves to reinforce that there are fistfulls of stuff in the codex that you just take at your own peril.

 

- I had made probably 8-10 lists of chaos ideas, and they all felt bad, or I was too unfamiliar with them. (Daemon summoning for instance). I felt in most games I lose it's because I'm paying Far too many points for too few bodies and most xenos are nearly doubling me(or more) with bodies on the table that actually do more.... I went cultists for having bodies. That was a mistake too.

 

- Formation wise maybe Helcult would have been better? I have no idea. Possessed as troops is just bad. I know it. I've tried it many times. They're just too expensive and random....

[Dallas Drake]

Swap out the 250 points of Maulers for Nurgle Spawn?

 

If I want to try and win against a competitive list (or just a better codex) I load up on Nurgle Spawn, it was expensive buying 15 of them though.

 

AoBF Juggerlord hits like a ton of bricks, he dies eventually but he usually wrecks enough deathstar that it's okay. Providing you get a few decent rolls he should deal with Nob bikers no problem, he's an easy conversion too, I can post my model here if you want.

 

I know you hate daemons but 20 allied Bloodhounds and a HoK on a Jugger with the Grimoire is a mean ally too, I take them at 1250. At 750 you'd have to play as Daemons.

 

AoBF Juggerlord

10 Cultists

10 Cultists

5 Spawn

5 Spawn w/MoN

5 Spawn w/MoN

 

That's about 750, but no melta might mean bad times?

 

Anything under 1500 is tough for CSMs, our units are not cost effective and the whole stone/paper/scissors is just magnified.

 

I've personally concentrated on building lists that are fun, I don't care if I lose. I've stuck by Possessed CSMs because I love the fluff/models/idea of them, though I tend to run them as vanilla elites w/MoK. Have they lost me games? Sure, but when they jump out of their dreadclaw I can't help but buzz off the cool factor. Even in Maelstrom games Cultists do me fine, so long as there are fast units like Spawn to run up and grab objectives turn 1 I tend to find as few points in obj sec troops does the job...

 

Edit: iPhone autocorrect :(

[Prot]

Swap out the 250 points of Maulers for Nurgle Spawn?

If I want to try and win against a competitive list (or just a better codex) I load up on Nurgle Spawn, it was expensive buying 15 of them though.

AoBF Juggerlord hits like a ton of bricks, he dies eventually but he usually wrecks enough deathstar that it's okay. Providing you get a few decent rolls he should deal with Nob bikers no problem, he's an easy conversion too, I can post my model here if you want.

I know you hate daemons but 20 allied Bloodhounds and a HoK on a Jugger with the Grimoire is a mean ally too, I take them at 1250. At 750 you'd have to play as Daemons.

AoBF Juggerlord

10 Cultists

10 Cultists

5 Spawn

5 Spawn w/MoN

5 Spawn w/MoN

That's about 750, but no melta might mean bad times?

Anything under 1500 is tough for CSMs, our units are not cost effective and the whole stone/paper/scissors is just magnified.

I've personally concentrated on building lists that are fun, I don't care if I lose. I've stuck by Possessed CSMs because I love the fluff/models/idea of them, though I tend to run them as vanilla elites w/MoK. Have they lost me games? Sure, but when they jump out of their dreadclaw I can't help but buzz off the cool factor. Even in Maelstrom games Cultists do me fine, so long as there are fast units like Spawn to run up and grab objectives turn 1 I tend to find as few points in obj sec troops does the job...

Edit: iPhone autocorrect

Honestly, don't take this wrong, because I truly, honestly appreciate the suggestions. But that being said, what part of that army is Chaos "Space Marines"? lol

This is something that just kills me about our codex. Where are the bloody marines in a competitive list? I guess maybe the spawns were marines once a few thousand years ago? lol

Okay, so obviously, most of your list I can't comment on because I try to play CSM. There's a lot of space hippies in that list. I confess I went out and bought 2 boxes of spawns. They have been unopened for a month. I think of all the time I spent magnetizing my new helbrute.. ugh. It's just not going to get played, I can see that now.

Okay, the Juggerlord. I see if I want to use this codex... I probably have to buy one. I'll add it to the shopping list.

And the possessed? Sure I love them too, I've been slowly painting a squad forever... I've taken big squads, small squads, squads on foot, in landraiders... I can't seem to get them to work very often. The randomness and expense... again I'm playing Xenos armies that are over doubling me model count. I need to make up for that somehow, some way.

Don't get me wrong, I love maulerfiends. I don't think I can take less than 2 though.

Thanks for the advice.