A 'great' all around Chaos CSM HQ: Starting from scratch

[Dallas Drake]

Swap out the 250 points of Maulers for Nurgle Spawn?

If I want to try and win against a competitive list (or just a better codex) I load up on Nurgle Spawn, it was expensive buying 15 of them though.

AoBF Juggerlord hits like a ton of bricks, he dies eventually but he usually wrecks enough deathstar that it's okay. Providing you get a few decent rolls he should deal with Nob bikers no problem, he's an easy conversion too, I can post my model here if you want.

I know you hate daemons but 20 allied Bloodhounds and a HoK on a Jugger with the Grimoire is a mean ally too, I take them at 1250. At 750 you'd have to play as Daemons.

AoBF Juggerlord

10 Cultists

10 Cultists

5 Spawn

5 Spawn w/MoN

5 Spawn w/MoN

That's about 750, but no melta might mean bad times?

Anything under 1500 is tough for CSMs, our units are not cost effective and the whole stone/paper/scissors is just magnified.

I've personally concentrated on building lists that are fun, I don't care if I lose. I've stuck by Possessed CSMs because I love the fluff/models/idea of them, though I tend to run them as vanilla elites w/MoK. Have they lost me games? Sure, but when they jump out of their dreadclaw I can't help but buzz off the cool factor. Even in Maelstrom games Cultists do me fine, so long as there are fast units like Spawn to run up and grab objectives turn 1 I tend to find as few points in obj sec troops does the job...

Edit: iPhone autocorrect

Honestly, don't take this wrong, because I truly, honestly appreciate the suggestions. But that being said, what part of that army is Chaos "Space Marines"? lol

This is something that just kills me about our codex. Where are the bloody marines in a competitive list? I guess maybe the spawns were marines once a few thousand years ago? lol

I know! It sucks doesn't it. GW took one of the best 5th ed troop choices and made them poor in 7th. I think an easy solution could be - a Chaos Lord/Daemon Prince makes all CSMs fearless, simple. If that was the case I'd use my CSMs as troops outside of fun/fluffy lists. As is, I just can't have 200 points running away.

[Prot]

Here's a change of pace for me:

 

HQ is maybe too expensive: NOTE: 1K total, NOT Crimson Slaughter

 

Chaos Lord: Axe of BF: MoK, Jugg, Sigil - 170

Chaos Bikers: x5, 2 x Melta, 1 Power Maul - 145 (Jugger Lord goes here?)

 

Spawn x4: MoN - 144

 

CSM x 5 VotL, Rhino, Dirge, Poweraxe, Flamer: 140

CSM x5, VotL, Rhino,Dirge,  Powermaul, Melta: 145

 

Oblits x3 MoN 237

 

981

[Dallas Drake]

If you want your Lord with bikers put him on a bike. Jugerlord is best with beasts for move through cover and fleet. 5 with no mark is only 6 points more than 4 w/MoN.

 

I'd drop the power axe/maul and go combi weapon on the CSM champs. I can't see 5 dudes lasting long enough in hand to hand to warrant upgrades. Why flamers? Would plasma no be better on a small squad?

 

Go 1x2 & 1x1 on the Oblits? Let's you DS them in to take 2 targets out if needed?

[Sheesh Mode]

Prot, are you expecting people to bring optimized lists or flavor lists? 

[Prot]

Prot, are you expecting people to bring optimized lists or flavor lists? 

 

Good question... both? neither?

 

I feel 'trapped' when I play chaos. What I liked to play just doesn't doesn't work anymore. It hasn't since 3rd edition and it's probably the principle reason I play them so rarely now.

 

I like "Chaos Marines" and that's probably the weakest angle to take. Never liked daemons, never liked the stuff way outside of human physiology. Possessed are okay to me as they are still marines to me. But the furthest I went was a Daemon Prince.

 

I need to be competitive or it will be boring.

 

I just had a game with the list propsed somewhere deep in this thread... and I lost so bad my opponent apologized (which was embarrasing) and said it wasn't fun for him either. lol

 

I did pull out 750 of Necrons and completely pants him after that (I did not use the decurion) but that's another story....

 

Optimized? In a word: no. Because I don't want to use anything with a tail. (aside from vehicles)

 

Flavor? No, because pure flavor just has me packing my stuff up in 3 turns.

 

My opponents will be a mix. Half will go purely for the win, but not to the extent of "Knights" and broken ally builds. Just 'codex strong', I guess you could call it.

 

After my big loss I built a dark angel list, that seemed marginally better. I brought out a bunch of Crimson Slaughter models I wanted to actually paint up.... Possessed and my 6-7 Warp Talon models. Then I gave my head a shake and had to ask what I would do with these models? Are they worth painting? Would they ever see table time in the current codex design?

 

I tried to make several more lists: Balestar Sorc in Termie with Termie squad? Possessed  in rhino's with 'cheap' CSM support? It all felt awkward, and a little too pricey for 750.... I thought of formations, Helcult? Cultsits are so mediocre in today's Xenos spam meta.... 

 

As you can imagine, I did a big circle of ideas and eventually put it all away. lol

[Lucio]

I appreciate the pain felt, I only recently got back into the hobby and primarily my enjoyment is taken from modelling and painting. When I do play, I like to feel I had a chance. My biggest gripe with Marines is the lack of "force multipliers", things designed to increase the number of dice rolled, or otherwise boost your low model count's effectivness.

 

I've got a small skirmish game coming up against the local store manager's Harlequins and whilst my initial lists ran similar to yours, I'm now trying to figure out a way to squeeze in a Relic Predator with Plasma Destroyer, a Havoc squad, a Heldrake and enough cultists to not die on Turn 1. Trouble is, even if I do win, it feels like such a "gamed" list that it won't feel like a victory.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Sounds like burn-out. Maybe it's time to try a narrative campaign or alternative rulesets or plan out Altar of War missions?

[incinerator950]

That's the reason why I'm in no hurry to play a game.

[totgeboren]

Well, with all this negativity I have to point out that I played a game vs Nids as part of an ongoing campaign this weekend.

It was 'First Contact' from Altar of War. Basically my forces start off in the middle of the board, then on turn one the entire Nid army arrived arrived all around me (from random board edges).

The Nid player got lucky and had full synapse coverage despite the random deployment. He had a flyrant, a walking Hive with guards, a dimachaeron in a pod, a Malanthrope, Zonathrops with the DoM and so on (he had lots of really 'good' Tyranid units, he wasn't holding back, though of course a win-at-all-cost list would have had 3 maybe 4 Flyrants). I took him down fairly convincingly. We played 1750 pts, so a bit higher than what is discussed here.

 

If you are interested, I had Khârn, a lvl 3 Sorc (Malefic) each with a bunch of cultists, 10 CSM with plasmaguns in a Rhino with a havoc launcher, Heldrake, Hell Blade, 5 Spawn, Maulerfiend, Sicaran and 3 Rapiers with Conversion Beamers.

 

It was a bad game mind you, after my first turn it was pretty obvious I would win. The Sicaran put a wound on the Flyrant who fell down and then Khârn assaulted him and chopped him up into tiny bitz. He then advanced towards the Zoanthropes, and with this 2+ Deny the Witch rolls they couldn't even defend themselves.

 

We almost played a full 3 turns, with me pointing out that the game wasn't all that fun any more in my turn 3 when I saw he had 4-5 models left and I was more or less unhurt.

 

So CSM can win hands down, they just have a kinda handicap because of the combination of no synergy while at the same time the army really need to be made to work together. This is really hard to do at lower points games, and of course makes CSM an unlikely candidate for top place in tournaments, but if your opponents don't bring the most extreme lists they can think of, they can work well enough for 'normal' games (against people who want to win, but who also don't like spamming the best thing over and over, which I have found describes most players).

[the jeske]

I wouldn't describ a tyranid army with less then 3 tyrants as"good", unless the "good" is understood the way we do here, like you know the "good" in GG.

 

My biggest gripe with Marines is the lack of "force multipliers", things designed to increase the number of dice rolled, or otherwise boost your low model count's effectivness.

 

 

Belfegor, sorc, invisibility, bikers, wyverns[if FW is being used BB wyverns] more then enough targets and buffers, compering to some other books. Of course the problems may be the lack of csm in  a csm army, but we ain't the only one having problems like that.

 

 

As the list goes

Chaos Lord: Axe of BF: MoK, Jugg, Sigil - 170

 

bike would be better. But khorn HQs have been meh for years anyway, so maybe it doesn't matter as much

Chaos Bikers: x5, 2 x Melta, 1 Power Maul - 145 (Jugger Lord goes here?)

 

You dont need 2 units, specialy not when your also runing bikers, use left over points to buy a undivided sorc on a bike.

Spawn x4: MoN - 144

 

Is ok would probably work better alongside more HQs or something like a fiend.

CSM x 5 VotL, Rhino, Dirge, Poweraxe, Flamer: 140

CSM x5, VotL, Rhino,Dirge,  Powermaul, Melta: 145

 

vets is not needed. 5 man units should be doing melee. buy melta+combi melta or melta+combi flamer. drop the dirge, bikes are faster and overwatch does not hurt bikers much[it would hurt even less if you were runing a +2 nurgle lord, but is a separate issue]

Oblits x3 MoN 237

 

it is not worth to run a single units of oblits. They don't have the number of shots centurions have , and while their weapon utility stays awesome, most of your army is melee. It would be better to either use the points to get a third csm unit in a rhino or a mauler fiend+buff ups to gear on lord and sorc.

[Chaeron]

 

If you are interested, I had Khârn, a lvl 3 Sorc (Malefic) each with a bunch of cultists, 10 CSM with plasmaguns in a Rhino with a havoc launcher, Heldrake, Hell Blade, 5 Spawn, Maulerfiend, Sicaran and 3 Rapiers with Conversion Beamers.

 

It's an interesting list - although it's probably fair to say that if you're taking three Rapiers and a Sicarian (as well as a Hellblade!) that Forge World is probably more of a leveler than the Codex itself. I've seen it argued that Tyranid armies that aren't geared to 'win at all costs' struggle massively - and certainly from previous experience, even this was an uphill struggle - not to take away from the achievement though - if you're tabling armies in three turns, this is a list to keep working with, and one I'd certainly like to try!

 

Is there an irony in a thread about making a good CSM HQ from scratch, the only HQ you mention in the short-lived game is Khârn, straight out of the Codex? :P What did the Sorcerer build offer you out of interest in a game like this?

[totgeboren]

If you are interested, I had Khârn, a lvl 3 Sorc (Malefic) each with a bunch of cultists, 10 CSM with plasmaguns in a Rhino with a havoc launcher, Heldrake, Hell Blade, 5 Spawn, Maulerfiend, Sicaran and 3 Rapiers with Conversion Beamers.

It's an interesting list - although it's probably fair to say that if you're taking three Rapiers and a Sicarian (as well as a Hellblade!) that Forge World is probably more of a leveler than the Codex itself. I've seen it argued that Tyranid armies that aren't geared to 'win at all costs' struggle massively - and certainly from previous experience, even this was an uphill struggle - not to take away from the achievement though - if you're tabling armies in three turns, this is a list to keep working with, and one I'd certainly like to try!

Is there an irony in a thread about making a good CSM HQ from scratch, the only HQ you mention in the short-lived game is Khârn, straight out of the Codex? What did the Sorcerer build offer you out of interest in a game like this?

The list felt kinda random at a glance, but it consisted of three parts. The Sorc with 10 cultists who helped out in the backfield, summoning daemons (three summons in three turns so he had a huge impact, to the point of me feeling malefic CSM Sorcerers are possibly a bit broken), with the backfield being the Conversion Beamers and the Sicaran.

In the middle was 30 cultists and Khârn just advancing, being something you just have to shoot, and being escorted by the 10 CSM in a Rhino. For flanking I used the 5 Spawn with MoN and a Maulerfiend. The Heldrake and Hell Blade were both there to deal with Flyrants, since if you leave them alive you will lose fast.

But it was definitely not a list made to be super-good. I just wanted to try out some FW stuff, and they worked pretty good. Especially the large blasts with high S from the Conversion Beamers was really great to have, since I seldom have any big blasts meaning my opponent can use the terrain much better. One salvo took of 5 wounds from a 3-man Hive Guard unit. :)

The Rapiers are also pretty great bullet magnets, with their high T and good save.

[Chaeron]

If you are interested, I had Khârn, a lvl 3 Sorc (Malefic) each with a bunch of cultists, 10 CSM with plasmaguns in a Rhino with a havoc launcher, Heldrake, Hell Blade, 5 Spawn, Maulerfiend, Sicaran and 3 Rapiers with Conversion Beamers.

It's an interesting list - although it's probably fair to say that if you're taking three Rapiers and a Sicarian (as well as a Hellblade!) that Forge World is probably more of a leveler than the Codex itself. I've seen it argued that Tyranid armies that aren't geared to 'win at all costs' struggle massively - and certainly from previous experience, even this was an uphill struggle - not to take away from the achievement though - if you're tabling armies in three turns, this is a list to keep working with, and one I'd certainly like to try!

Is there an irony in a thread about making a good CSM HQ from scratch, the only HQ you mention in the short-lived game is Khârn, straight out of the Codex? What did the Sorcerer build offer you out of interest in a game like this?

The list felt kinda random at a glance, but it consisted of three parts. The Sorc with 10 cultists who helped out in the backfield, summoning daemons (three summons in three turns so he had a huge impact, to the point of me feeling malefic CSM Sorcerers are possibly a bit broken), with the backfield being the Conversion Beamers and the Sicaran.

In the middle was 30 cultists and Khârn just advancing, being something you just have to shoot, and being escorted by the 10 CSM in a Rhino. For flanking I used the 5 Spawn with MoN and a Maulerfiend. The Heldrake and Hell Blade were both there to deal with Flyrants, since if you leave them alive you will lose fast.

But it was definitely not a list made to be super-good. I just wanted to try out some FW stuff, and they worked pretty good. Especially the large blasts with high S from the Conversion Beamers was really great to have, since I seldom have any big blasts meaning my opponent can use the terrain much better. One salvo took of 5 wounds from a 3-man Hive Guard unit.

The Rapiers are also pretty great bullet magnets, with their high T and good save.

I definitely think that Summoning is where you get that value from with that sort of HQ - it's admittedly something I've not really tried, but am keen to in future so seeing how it works for others is a big boost to those plans.

Be interesting to test the list further and see what happens against different opponents!

[Lucio]

I keep testing Summoning in small games, where it's most likely to swing the balance. Biggest problem is you have to spend out for a bodyguard of Possessed on top of the Artifact that makes it most viable (though a Maelfic Daemon Prince could be fun). Usually have 4 Warp Charge on top of the die roll, so can usually get a power off per turn.

 

Ultimately though, the daemons summoned tend to lack punch unless you get Screamers or similar, so rarely justify the points cost compared to what they kill. My biggest use for it has been to tarpit nasty units, such as an opposing HQ

[totgeboren]

But summoning Daemons are so much more versatile than just being an odd psychic attack.

I mean, for example, in one game I had 10 Plague bearers deep strike in front of my army, and my opponent had to use two units to remove them to allow some other assault unit to pass through. So what my warp charge bought me was that I basically nullified two units worth of shooting. The result would have been the same as if the power said "Two enemy units within range may not shoot during their next shooting phase".

I have won games by summoning Flesh Hounds who ran to grab an objective. Flamers deep striking down close to enemy hordes (huge amounts of S4 AP4 hits from the templates), and the unit of Flamers needs to be destroyed too, so it's not just offensive power but also an incredible defensive buff (save one 'real' unit from being attacked!)

[Chaeron]

I keep testing Summoning in small games, where it's most likely to swing the balance. Biggest problem is you have to spend out for a bodyguard of Possessed on top of the Artifact that makes it most viable (though a Maelfic Daemon Prince could be fun). Usually have 4 Warp Charge on top of the die roll, so can usually get a power off per turn.

 

Ultimately though, the daemons summoned tend to lack punch unless you get Screamers or similar, so rarely justify the points cost compared to what they kill. My biggest use for it has been to tarpit nasty units, such as an opposing HQ

 

Yeah, a speedbump or tarpit definitely seems to be one of the better uses. That said, I've seen rulepacks recently where it's massively weighted against summoning - so it's interesting if TOs see these powers as being too overtly powerful that there have to be rules put in place to massively discourage it.

[totgeboren]

In my group we have house-ruled that it's only the warp charge generated by the D6 that can be spent by anyone. The warp charge generated by power levels is locked to the psycher generating it.

 

This has made low-charge powers more used, and also made psychics much less reliable. And of course, it has cut down the number of WC3 power cast in a turn to one at most, two if you are really lucky.

 

For example, if I have a lvl 3 Sorcerer with malefic, I can't just summon a unit of Horrors turn one and use them as a conduit for summoning more daemons without risking my Sorcerer (also, we changed Flickering Fire to simply be cast at the power level indicated by the number of successful warp charge rolls you got, so as to not make Horrors totally worthless).

 

But no matter what house rules, a flying Daemon prince with familiar and WC3 Malefic is the new daemon bomb, summoning forth a unit of daemons per turn at whatever position he feels like it.

[Prot]

I was trying a few things out.... on a few lists of 1K, and I think I came up with a fairly economic 1K list I can live with....

 

At the root of it all is some possessed, (only 5) some World Eaters (only 5) and Khârn. I just can't get into summoning..... The closest thing I'll get to using space hippies is a few Spawns, which are just meat shields.

 

I think at 1K actually the baledrake has value.

 

At 1K I still think Khârn is probably the most bang for the buck.

[totgeboren]

About the Heldrake. Remember that it can hover, so if you include it at low points games, don't forget that you can just fly around like an über Hellhound if the flyer rules makes it hard to utilize properly.

[Prot]

Trying to blend 'fun' with 'WIN"......

 

Crimson Slaughter: 1K (1 mandatory Elite slot for this campaign week.)

 

- HQ Lord, Jump pack, Blade of the Relentless, Sigil: 135Pts

 

- Fast:

5 Warp Talons. (lord goes here.)

1 Bale-drake (gotta even stuff up somehow. Seems like everyone lives off of cover these days, or FNP or both!) 170pts

 

Troops:

5 x marines. A  few close combat, one Plasmagun, champ with Power maul + Rhjino: 140 (this actually feels reasonable)

 

5 x Possessed, + Rhino 165

 

Heavy:

Maulerfiend 125

 

Compulsory Elite:

Termicide: 3 Termies, 2 x combi melta, mix of axe and mauls: 105

 

(I thought of pulling out the Hebrute as a firing plaform for more AV12 for my opponent to worry about... I feel safer with Termies.)

 

1000 on the nose.

 

Any thoughts? I've got this up against my Ultramarines list for tonight. I haven't decided yet.

[Lucio]

List is starting to play to the stengths of the CSM, though maybe needs a Havoc squad with missile launchers in place of the Maulerfiend to get more templates into play. Definitely Terminators instead of Helbrute

[Teetengee]

Dirge casters might be useful for a more all round list, but probably won't be super necessary for ultras.

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

I'd try and get casters on the rhino tbh

[Trevak Dal]

I love the Killstreak/Kirito Sword, the coolest thing they've come up with for chaos.


Another thing-I don't take Dark Apostles and Warpsmiths because you can't give them anything like a mount, bike or Jump pack.

 

I've noticed everybody and their mom runs prophet of the voices on a Sorcerer...but why not put it on a WarpSmith or Dark Apostle?

 

True, the Fearless is lost on the DA, because he's already fearless, but he would greatly buff the unit of Possessed.

 

A Fearless Warpsmith would give the possessed a Flamer and Meltagun as well as a crap ton of Power axe attacks.  Now that I write it out, that opens up a lot of options...like taking multiple IA13 relic machines...

 

Why not use your Helbrute?  You got cultists painted up, take a Helcult.  Twinlinked lascannons are fun-just take a fist or flail for when you knuckle up.

[Lagrath]

Zhufor is amazing for his points cost.