Khorne Daemonkin - Discussion, Tactics, Background

[Skyrar's Finest]

However, it is unlikely you'll ever see a wraith knight with a sword and shield...not when you can get the same result from 36' away with the heavy wraith cannons.  I'm not sure why they are bothering with the Lord of Skulls...its going to be the same result.

 

I wonder if An'ggrath the Unbound would do any better?

[Adra'Melek]

I wouldn't call it informative. Rolling dice to see what would have is a largely pointless exercise. I notice they rolled one combat for the Insensate Rage Bloodthirster, in which the Bloodthirster died before it could attack, but for the other one with less strength went through several rounds of combat. They didn't roll a single combat roll for that Bloodthirster. Then they also decided to ignore the BFtBG rule which most people seem to use to give and extra attack and FNP. Then you have the fact that the Bloodthirster is about 888 times cooler than the wraithknight.

 

Anyone with the eldar codex able to say how much damage a BT of IR would do in one turn if it survived?

[Scribe]

Someone tell me, if you have 33% chance to hit, and 16% chance to Str D insta-kill, whats the odds of that? Just multiply?

[Tenebris]

However, it is unlikely you'll ever see a wraith knight with a sword and shield...not when you can get the same result from 36' away with the heavy wraith cannons.  I'm not sure why they are bothering with the Lord of Skulls...its going to be the same result.

 

Alas that is the true eye-opener. The WK does not need to get in melee, it can kill you the turn you land down to assault in the next. Eldar have rerolls, rerolls which are there just to deal with such a situation. All they need is one shot or one attack to get through. As an added point even more dangerous is the Wraithguard. 

[Adra'Melek]

Per attack. So that's 1 in 18 chance to instant kill per attack. Bloodthirster has 1 in 9 of doing the same per attack. And has more attacks.

[Slayer le Boucher]

They should make an errata that the Greater Axe doesn't have Collosal rule, because if for some reason the Eldar Knight can have D-hits with Initiative, while its juts basiccaly a big walker, i don't see why a creature from an alternate universe that doesn't give a :cuss about our universe laws and physics should be hindered by the hypotitical weight of that darn axe...

 

or their errata that the Knight Sword also has the collosal rule, even so the WK would be superior because if his powerfull ranged weapons anyway...

[Scribe]

I'm fine either way. I feel like the BT was balanced against Knights, not WraithKnights that are balanced against...nobody.

[Tenebris]

The problem is that when we speak D weapons few things need to be kept in mind. 

 

• wins whomever strikes first
• strength is irrelevant
• weapon skill has a minimal impact, either the target is a vehicle or a MC, you hit the first automatically, you trade blows at Initiative with the second

In short, one dice is enough to get through. There is no need to kill outright a superheavy or a gargantuan creature, the imperative is to make it manageable by the rest of the army, which can slowly take away the remaining wounds. 

 

Having to strike at I 1 the Bloodthirster fails in this task for he cannot wound, and worst still, there is a good chance that he would suffer a wound before he strikes. The role of the D weapon is to strip hull points/wounds from a model. You cannot do that if you strike last, because your ideal targets strike before you. 

[tbone]

What they need to so is nerf the D table a bit. That would make a fight between the BT and a Wraithknight more balanced. The axe BT will kill about the same (with all those attacks current table is overkill for him). This would also give him a chance of getting past the knights D-cannons.

[Tenebris]

It is not a problem of the D weapon rule, it is simply in this case a problem of our low Initiative. Now the high weapon skill does mitigate that problem a little, but still only one dice is needed to get through and there are good chances that your Bloodthirster looses half his wounds. The ideal targets for our Bloodthirster are the vehicles which despite how you attack them, they have no attacks of their own, if stationary you hit them automatically. On the other hands the dangerous targets, which the Bloodthirster should help us with, are to much dangerous for him. Imperial Knights and the Wraithknight hit before the Bloodthirster, this is reason alone why they are not ideal targets. You go in hoping you pop a Knight only to end you killed in return. I have seen it happen countless times. 

 

Still try as we may, Be'Lakor with his Armourbane is still a better option. Not optimal, just better. We have no optimal options. 

[Excessus]

Not only Be'lakor...Khârn will slaughter an Imperial Knight on the charge...he's a glass cannon thogh, but cost 190p less than Be'lakor...

[Iron_Within]

Truth is any attempt to stat against a WraithKnight is doomed to failure; GW took a massive dump upon any idea of correct points costing, far beyond anything before imo when you compare it to any equivalent vehicle or walker. For that reason it's an irrelevance. Many people in local games are flat refusing to play against WK (in my personal anecdotal experience), and many tourny's I've come across don't allow Gargantuan creatures or super-heavies (besides Imperial Knights). If you have the misfortune to face a Wraightknight, feed it expendable units and use it as a Blood Tithe machine, or if you have to take it down directly, Meltaguns would be useful, rapid fire plasma and weight of numbers. Ultimately in this ugly world we find ourselves in we have to be more discerning who we play against, we play to have fun, if someones making an unfun list (which is my main complaint about the Eldar, the powerful lists aren't fun).

 

Really that leaves Imperial Knights as a thing and the GToIR in general. He's not good against IK really, just because of Initiative, he will take out an IK that doesn't have a CCW (which will start becoming a thing with the new knights), but there's a chance he will go down. He's best against Superheavy Vehicles and against characters that cannot kill him in one turn. Against IK you want expendable troops that will take it down, for me this is Termi-cide squads. Combi Melta and Chainfists (if they survive return fire) will take take an IK and in MSU units they will start to hurt them quickly. Best thing though are Maulerfiends. A fiend on its own against an IK will go down, but a pack of 2 or 3 will take a knight down quite quickly (yes a fiend will go down to a IK in combat but thats the rub as always) as their fast enough to make it into combat and with Meltacutters, strong enough to take it down fast. Meltaguns and Maulerfiends.

[Sception]

Honestly, the whole game feels like a bit of a cluttered mess at the moment, and knights really aren't all that much better than wraithlords for fun, balanced gaming.

[Scribe]

Its actually turned into rock-paper-scissors like scenarios. The issue there, is it forces players to have all those models.

 

D beats Super Heavy and pushes people to MSU

Super Heavy beats Death Star

Death Star beats MSU?

 

Its similar to the dynamics you see in MTG, and I wonder if its intentional.

[Plaguecaster]

I reckon the BT with the D should be able to hit with its attacks at normal I even if it loses the D rule if it opts to do this, then if it wants to hit solely with the D then either half the number of attacks to do so not all D hits at I 1 due to a stupid rule. It is a bloodthirster for Khorne's sake it should still be able to cleave through dozens of enemies with ease I would of thought that any Khorne Daemon would be pretty ashamed if it couldn't wield an axe properly, sure it is a huge battle axe but still it doesn't make sens, a Blood Thirster being a denizen of the warp (free from any stupid rules of reason or physics being a daemon) should be able to wield its axe with ease regardless of how heavy it is (a blood Thirster should be strong enough as well) besides its a daemon weapon it could easily weigh as much as a feather. I know lnights have the same rule for most of their close combat D weapons but it actually makes sense for them (most imperial warmachines are huge clunky engines of destruction that rely on superior firepower or heavy armour to overcome opposition not nimble lighting fast attacks)

 

I know it was probably to be "fair play" (aka screw Chaos over again) for non- chao players but it's a bit annoying they basically threw that "fair play" out the window for the golden child Eldar who get every crazy shenanigan possible since they are special

[Hellrender]

I actually dodnt have much a problem against knights. Khorne dp with aobf tok 1 out on the charge no problem. Granted thats csm not daemonkin.

 

Knights you can deal with. They cost a fair bit, have few hp compared to other super heavies and only D in melee. And its only save, the ion shield can be outplayes. And does not work I'm melee.

 

The problem is the wraith knight. Its under costed, allowing there to be a full army in support. It can have D in ranged. It moves fast with jump, making it hard to corner one. And it has set saves on all sides.

 

An IK you can deal with. A wk is a lot harder.

[Torbenos]

Just to ask, of the troop choices offered in the Slaughtercult, Chaos Space Marines, Berzerkers and Bloodletters. Which seem to be the better? I was leaning Berzerker for awhile, but it's basically twice the number of points as a Bloodletter, who does still have that AP3 weapon and high BS, then again they are basically as easy to kill as an Imperial Guardsman.

 

Also, do you consider the Slaughtercult vital? I personally really like Heldrakes (Who doesn't?) but the 2 Raptor and 1 Warp Talon Squad tax is rather hefty, or just go with one Blood Host and one Combined Arms Detachment?

[Scribe]

To me, Slaughtercult is pretty key, but I havent played too many games. The double up on buffs and the free tithe are important enough though.

 

For the troops, I'm still a keep em cheap fan, so go with 2 x 8 CSM in Rhinos.

[Always check the Shadows]

I played a couple of games with Daemonkin lists at Warhammer World and my conclusions were

 

1) The majority of units are quite fragile. Yes, they give you blood tithe points when they die but they die pretty quickly. Losing 8 berserkers in one round of shooting to 5 Sternguard was quite depressing.

2) Don't rely on summoning Blodthirsters without help.  I summoned one in each game i played and both times i rolled a mishap. i didn't have any bloodletters with banners but still felt that summoning a bloodthirster should not be by the deep strike rule. Surely if the Daemon takes possession of a mortal body then the model should just be replaced? spend your points on buffs for your units and bloodletters.

3) Never go with a single Maulerfiend, got to be at least two or none.

4) Remember your special rules. There are a lot of them in a Daeomnkin army and i forgot them too often.

5) Pray GW gets some flesh hound stock soon, would have loved some.

6) Chaos Spawn are awesome. A unit of 3 spawn managed to destroy a squad of Sisters and then managed to keep a Knight in combat for two whole turns.

7) I will use a Blood Host every time, the extra blood tithe is worth the possessed tax.

 

With all of that i loved playing them and can't wait to have another game!

[Khornestar]

I haven't run the Slaughtercult yet because even with double buffs, I don't really see power armored units as worthwhile.

 

Now, I haven't played a ton of games against varying opponents, so it's not like I've tried everything and decided on the best.  Mostly a personal flavor thing. My usual opponent plays Iron Hands with Contemptor/Predator/Razorback spam and a chapter master/honor guard on bikes.

 

I run 2 units of min sized cultists as troops, then I bring 3 maulerfiends, a unit of 5 spawn, gorepack with meltabikers, heldrake(s) and then mix and match HQ elements.

 

I played a 2600 game a couple of weeks ago with 2 D-thirsters as my HQ, then an allied detachment with an AoBF juggerlord and one of the new vindicators from FW. I only had one unit of 5 hounds at the time.

 

I went up against a Knight Castigator, 3 mortis contemptors, 2 tri-las predators, 2 assault cannon razorbacks and a lascannon razorback. A single D-thirster wiped out the chapter master and the knight before going down, and the juggerlord and spawn mopped up everything else. 2/3 maulerfiends and 3/3 units of bikers were dead on the first turn but the rest of the army put in serious work.

 

I pretty much only ever use FNP if I have lots of units with toughness value on the table. Having 1 extra attack per model is cool, but really, taking all that power armor would have made for a much worse list.

 

Yes, every unit that you lose gives you a blood tithe point, and that's crucial. However, you still need to inflict damage. To inflict damage, you must close the distance and engage in close combat as soon as possible. Yes, we have Forgefiends, Helbrutes, Soulgrinders, etc. to do some long-rage shooting, and of all our options I think the Soulgrinder is best because it can drop a big pie plate while it closes the distance to wreck face in close combat.

 

Power armor needs a land raider to assault on turn 2, and to survive until turn 2. A rhino (in many of my games, obviously not ALWAYS) gets blown up on turn 1 or 2, and the earliest my CSM/zerkers are going to charge is turn 3. If I don't go first, that's 3 turns of shooting whittling down or eliminating units. Using a Slaughtercult with power armored troops just seems like a gimpfest. If anything, I'd take bloodletters and deep strike them. That way at least they endure one less turn of shooting and can safely charge units already engaged by hounds/spawn/fiends/bikers.

 

The book only recently came out, so we have a few years (let's cussing hope) to explore the ins and outs of this army. I broke apart all my power armored minis to repose/prime them, so once I reassemble and paint them I'll see what I can do.

 

TLDR: I just really don't like the unit restrictions of the Slaughtercult.

[Khar'vros the Crazed]

I haven't run the Slaughtercult yet because even with double buffs, I don't really see power armored units as worthwhile.

 

Now, I haven't played a ton of games against varying opponents, so it's not like I've tried everything and decided on the best.  Mostly a personal flavor thing. My usual opponent plays Iron Hands with Contemptor/Predator/Razorback spam and a chapter master/honor guard on bikes.

 

I run 2 units of min sized cultists as troops, then I bring 3 maulerfiends, a unit of 5 spawn, gorepack with meltabikers, heldrake(s) and then mix and match HQ elements.

 

I played a 2600 game a couple of weeks ago with 2 D-thirsters as my HQ, then an allied detachment with an AoBF juggerlord and one of the new vindicators from FW. I only had one unit of 5 hounds at the time.

 

I went up against a Knight Castigator, 3 mortis contemptors, 2 tri-las predators, 2 assault cannon razorbacks and a lascannon razorback. A single D-thirster wiped out the chapter master and the knight before going down, and the juggerlord and spawn mopped up everything else. 2/3 maulerfiends and 3/3 units of bikers were dead on the first turn but the rest of the army put in serious work.

 

I pretty much only ever use FNP if I have lots of units with toughness value on the table. Having 1 extra attack per model is cool, but really, taking all that power armor would have made for a much worse list.

 

Yes, every unit that you lose gives you a blood tithe point, and that's crucial. However, you still need to inflict damage. To inflict damage, you must close the distance and engage in close combat as soon as possible. Yes, we have Forgefiends, Helbrutes, Soulgrinders, etc. to do some long-rage shooting, and of all our options I think the Soulgrinder is best because it can drop a big pie plate while it closes the distance to wreck face in close combat.

 

Power armor needs a land raider to assault on turn 2, and to survive until turn 2. A rhino (in many of my games, obviously not ALWAYS) gets blown up on turn 1 or 2, and the earliest my CSM/zerkers are going to charge is turn 3. If I don't go first, that's 3 turns of shooting whittling down or eliminating units. Using a Slaughtercult with power armored troops just seems like a gimpfest. If anything, I'd take bloodletters and deep strike them. That way at least they endure one less turn of shooting and can safely charge units already engaged by hounds/spawn/fiends/bikers.

 

The book only recently came out, so we have a few years (let's cussing hope) to explore the ins and outs of this army. I broke apart all my power armored minis to repose/prime them, so once I reassemble and paint them I'll see what I can do.

 

TLDR: I just really don't like the unit restrictions of the Slaughtercult.

 

I'm going to have to disagree, using power armor is hardly a gimpfest...if it were then loyalist marines wouldnt be worth a damn either and obviously they do just fine.  However 'zerkers and csm do need support, just like a loyalist marine does.  

 

Useless sacrificial units like MSU cultists aren't going to do a single thing but die and give up blood tithe.  Which is perfectly fine, they are cheap enough that it doesn't really matter.  However they accomplish nothing else other then dying.  That to me is pretty worthless, I want units that are going to at least do SOMETHING before they die and give me blood tithe.

 

Now I will fully admit I do not play 'competitive tourney', and after listening to some bat reps, and reading what some of you guys have to play against I'm glad I don't.  With such a bunch of power gaming, spam filed lists, I really don't see how any of you guys have any fun playing with/against them.  And granted yes everyone's idea of fun is different....but it boggles my mind.

 

As far as the slaughtercult is concerned, yes your forced to take a unit that most consider extremely sub par, but the added blood tithe per turn, and the secondary bonus blood tithe power is pretty huge.  Much like the necron decurion's 'tax', it's benefits make it one of the hardest armies to budge.  I think a well rounded blood host could be one of the nastiest lists around if you simply learn how to play it as a whole and not spam the crap out of one good formation.  Ok so eldar will still wipe the floor with it, but then again at this point in time what army does eldar not wipe the floor with?

[Khornestar]

I think all units have their place, but so far the lists I've come up with without marines have done better than when I have used them. I don't really have a problem with spammed units, facing or utilizing them. Unless my opponent is either going to steamroll me or vice versa, I'm happy playing against whatever list if we both have a chance at victory and having a fun time. I'm not a tournament player and probably never will be. 40k isn't the right kind of game for it, IMO. Or rather, GW isn't the right company for it.

My opinion is simply that power armor is somewhat underpowered or overpriced for CSM, and even moreso for Daemonkin. Far from useless, I've used CSM and zerkers many times. The cultists in my lists either hold objectives in my deployment zone while the real threats rush the enemy (should I have the appropriate cards of course), or themselves run up the board to claim midboard objectives, assault something, and eventually get a blood tithe point when they inevitably die. Any shooting spent on them isn't hurting my hounds or bikers. They may not inflict much damage, but I have never regretted spending the minimal points on them. With Daemonkin even moreso than CSM, they serve my purpose.

I appreciate your point of view, but honestly find the "just learn to play" comments to be unnecessary. We're all free to play the game and choose units as we see fit, are we not? Does it really make a difference how we do that? I'm not pretending to be some sort of Napoleon of 40k or "expert" at the game (I'd find anyone claiming to be one quite silly), just sharing my experiences and preferences.

[Khar'vros the Crazed]

Ah forgive me, I didn't mean to sound like I was saying 'learn to play' specifically, I simply meant learning the synergy between the units to make a coherent force.  With the dex being as new as it is, I feel that it hasn't really had time to have been felt out yet, and latching on to one unit and/or formation to spam, defeats that purpose to me.

 

I myself am far from an expert, I probably loose more often then win. I constantly try new units/tactics/combos, and some of those have led to horrific failures and a few astounding successes.  And tend to go out of my way to avoid spamming anything, to me it seems like too much of a crutch, and a waste of an army's potential.  But that is my opinion, and your right everyone is free to play how they see fit

 

Originally I wasn't planning on using the gorepack at all.  Firstly I have bad luck with bikes...my dice just hate them with a passion it seems, and the hounds just seemed to fragile with only a 5++, and I hate that model with a passion....but numerous accounts of their use and successes have changed my mind.  I've gotten around the model hate, and I plan to use suitably painted fenrisian wolves.

Again I apologize if I sounded condescending or anything, as I truly did not mean to.

[Scribe]

I have no problem with saying power armour is essentially useless, in any stripe. Is there any book (Wolves maybe?) that depends fully on MEQ boots on the ground?

[Khar'vros the Crazed]

That really depends on your meta, and what sort of player you are.  In my area, the loyalist marine players all use power armor as the backbones of their armies.  But then again we may be an odd bunch, as I've yet to see an imperial knight and only one eldar player is around regularly.