Rapier Battery Tactics

[Memento Of Prospero]

Why does their 36" range bother you then?

 

and much cheaper cost ;)

[defl0]

Has anyone run the math on rapiers for tank hunting? Shatter shells are obviously superior at low AVs. But where do laser destroyers get better against tanks? And do haywires ever get better against tanks than laser destroyers? Seems the pen opportunity makes the laser destroyer better against super heavies, or is the break out against higher number of hull points and haywires grind out on efficiency on low hull point models? 

Edited April 10, 2015 by defl0

[ThatOneMarshal]

Haywire in 7th edition is a whole lot better than conventional fire arms. When you are trying to kill a tank now a days you'll go for hull point stripping. Haywire does that pretty well and is even better in the HH. That Spartans flare shield won't protect you against my haywire. With haywire it's not a matter if I'm going to strip a hull point it's how many hull points am I going to take. And that's important, the vehicle damage chart punishes weapons that rely on blowing up vehicles. Once a vehicles hull points are off it's dead there Is no chance of it becoming shaken or stirred. However I don't know how effective graviton rappers are. I personally love the idea mortars only because I'm an artillery fanatic.

[Hesh Kadesh]

The best chance at killing a tank is on a 5+ on an AP1. Each penetrating hit causes 1HP in damage plus damage roll. For each AP1 explodes, you will statistically cause 3 HP in damage p urely from pentrating hits. Most vehicles have 3 HP, wiith notable exceptions, like Dracosans and Land Raiders which have more than 3 and not super heavy.

 

These are very heavily armoured however, aad require a 6 on a Lascannon to penetrate. You have twice the chance to roll glances than roll explodes with S9 AP1, 6 HP from glances for 1 explodes. Ordnance does help get you cause that damage, and against even Spartans you are just as likely tokill with HP damage than explodes. Not to mention most take Flare Shields.

 

haywire removes that randomness. Against a flare shield spartan, with 5 HP, you need 6 haywire shots to strip 5 HP. A laser destroyer needs with 30% chance to glance (effective reroll) 17 hits, with an 88% accuracy that is around 20 shots.

 

Land Raiders and Spartans have one goal. That is to drop off something nasty in your battleline. They get there by turn 2. If you don't kill it first turn, your opponent has achieved their goal; 12" move, 6" move 6" deploy and 2d6 assault and they are there. Even with 12 Rapier Lasers, you are unlikely to stop it. With 6 Gravs, you can. You then have the benefit of a big stompy melee unit (usually terms esp Cataphracti) that your opponents have dunped upwards of 800pts into that cannot get close to. No running means 6" move. You can make that even better thanks to a half dozen pie plates of difficult and dangerous terrain stripping the odd wound and slowing them down even more. If you get first turn then for the cost of 450pts, you have neautralised your opponents primary gamewinni g unit until turn 4 ish.

 

It really works well with avoidance style lists; stand off jetbikes, rhinos at extreme range to protect from small arms, drop pod dreadnoughts (which provide another source of haywire), other fast movers. I really rate them, but it is also how I've played since I started with wood elves and biker marines in 4th edition. Movement wins games, IMHO.

[GreyCrow]

Well, I'm partial to laser weaponry, especially because the Laser Destroyer is Ordnance, so a better chance to get a glancing/penetrating hit on high value targets. Against AV14 it's actually got a 66% of glancing once it has hit because of 33% chance on each dice and you roll two at a time (so odds are cumulative in this case). It might not get a Spartan with a Flare Shield that accurately, but for anything else it would work quite well.

 

You might not kill his star unit for which he has paid a 350 points transport, but you'll murder any other armour :p

[Phalanx Warder]

My question is can you move 6" and still fire at full BS with a Laser destroyer? if so that makes them even nastier!

[Krikey]

Actually, with a dice reroll, the odds are higher, but not cumulative. If they were cumulative, then if you were to roll four dice instead of two, you would have a 133% chance to succeed -- meaning you would never have a chance of failing to roll a 5 or 6, which is obviously not the case. It is very possible to roll a 1, 2, 3, or 4 on all 4 dice (and woukd actually happen about 20% of the time).

 

Instead, the odds of rolling a glance or pen with S9 vs AV14 by rolling two dice and picking the highest is about 56%

 

2/3 chance of failure with each roll; 2 rolls

2/3^2 = 2/3*2/3 = 4/9 --> 55.56%

~K

Edited April 14, 2015 by Krikey

[GreyCrow]

My question is can you move 6" and still fire at full BS with a Laser destroyer? if so that makes them even nastier!

 

Well, they are heavy/ordnance weapons, so you won't be able to shoot them at full ballistic skill after moving from what I can see since they don't have Relentless or SnP.

 

So the enemy is likely to try and stay away from their killzone... except in the case of Raven Guard Legions where they can infiltrate them so they always have line of sight, mwuhahaha :p

[ThatOneMarshal]

I thought artillery could move and shoot? Or is that just the thunderfire cannon that I'm thinking of?

[GreyCrow]

Well, that is a very good question... My understanding with Artillery Weapons is that there is nothing in the rulebook in the Artillery section that says that they would treat Heavy and Ordnance weapons differently from Infantry models, so they follow the same rules for moving and shooting because they neither have Relentless or Slow and Purposeful.

 

They can move and they can shoot, but can only fire Snap Shots if they moved. But I could wrong about that and I'd be glad to be sure !

[GreyCrow]

For some reason I previously didn't bother to take a look at the Thudd Gun's profile previously... My gosh, it's like a Rapid Fire Missile Launcher, this option is crazy :o

[Sanct]

For some reason I previously didn't bother to take a look at the Thudd Gun's profile previously... My gosh, it's like a Rapid Fire Missile Launcher, this option is crazy

 

A cheaper, tougher, better frag, better AT, non-heavy support that only lacks sarges and ap1-3 attacks? Yeah.  It's part of the reason people weren't happy when they got the shatter shells.

 

Consider a pride of the legion Alpha list.  Near universal s8 infiltrate with sniper/tank-hunter or sunder? Ouch.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Sanct

[GreyCrow]

No kidding, it's like a Elite Heavy Support squad for super cheap I mean, T7 on top of that...

The only thing lacking is the short range, but still it's going to interdict any light transport bold enough to come in its range while pounding on the infantry deep in the enemy DZ 

Edited May 23, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Dono1979]

Well, that is a very good question... My understanding with Artillery Weapons is that there is nothing in the rulebook in the Artillery section that says that they would treat Heavy and Ordnance weapons differently from Infantry models, so they follow the same rules for moving and shooting because they neither have Relentless or Slow and Purposeful.

 

They can move and they can shoot, but can only fire Snap Shots if they moved. But I could wrong about that and I'd be glad to be sure !

 

The Laser Rapier is Ordnance, you cant snap fire Ord, so no moving and shooting with them. The only Rapier you can more and shoot with is the Quad Thudd and snap firing with the Shatter rounds.

 

Grav is (imo) an all or nothing gambit. Taking two or three things that shoot out Grav isnt going to do much and you probably be underwhelmed, it will occasioannly allow you to finish off a tank reliably or lay down some slow movement fields but having them on mass is wonderous.

 

5 Dreadnoughts all with Grav gun (2 of them with dual Grav)

3 Graviton Rapiers

 

That's ten Haywire blasts a turn with range or on a relentless chassis, you can reliably glance a Spartan/Typhon etc to death in a single volley with shots to spare and if your opponent bunched up then you can be hitting multiple tanks with each blast and creating a massive wall of dangerous terrain. Not a reliable tactic to field constantly but if someone if regularly fielding a Pride of the Legion with two lots of Terminator filled Spartans backed by a Typhon, you can bring their list to its knees quite quickly. Forcing the Termies out of their transport early can pretty much end their game then and there.

[Sanct]

 

The Laser Rapier is Ordnance, you cant snap fire Ord, so no moving and shooting with them. The only Rapier you can more and shoot with is the Quad Thudd and snap firing with the Shatter rounds.

 

 

Hey now! Who doesn't like the quad heavy bolter?  Huh! Hurrrr!?

[Dono1979]

 

 

The Laser Rapier is Ordnance, you cant snap fire Ord, so no moving and shooting with them. The only Rapier you can more and shoot with is the Quad Thudd and snap firing with the Shatter rounds.

 

 

Hey now! Who doesn't like the quad heavy bolter?  Huh! Hurrrr!?

 

 

lol forgot about that one, even as IF I rarely even consider them.

[GreyCrow]

Has anyone made a points per points comparison between rapier battries and similarly equipped Heavy Support Squads ? (Quad HB vs HB, Laser vs Lascanon, Thud Gun vs Missiles)

 

It would be interesting to compare how fares the Rapier vs the HSS in these circumstances (without any Legion specifics or ROW)

[PastelAvenger]

Has anyone made a points per points comparison between rapier battries and similarly equipped Heavy Support Squads ? (Quad HB vs HB, Laser vs Lascanon, Thud Gun vs Missiles)

 

It would be interesting to compare how fares the Rapier vs the HSS in these circumstances (without any Legion specifics or ROW)

It would be really difficult to do that since you have to factor in the increased Toughness of a Raipier Battery. You will get more shots with the Heavy Support Squad but I would imagine the Raipier stays around longer.

[ThatOneMarshal]

What's the general consensus on laser rapiers for anti tank? I've been looking for anti tank in different parts of the FOC since the terror assault allows only one heavy support.

[Slips]

What's the general consensus on laser rapiers for anti tank? I've been looking for anti tank in different parts of the FOC since the terror assault allows only one heavy support.

Decent, if Immobile. With their Stealth Buff to 48" its not so much of a Problem but you'll want to give them the best LoS possible to shoot things which, conversely, means it'll be easier to shoot them.

[Theredknight]

 

 

What's the general consensus on laser rapiers for anti tank? I've been looking for anti tank in different parts of the FOC since the terror assault allows only one heavy support.

Decent, if Immobile. With their Stealth Buff to 48" its not so much of a Problem but you'll want to give them the best LoS possible to shoot things which, conversely, means it'll be easier to shoot them.

Sorry, Where did rapier batteries get this, is it in tempest?

I know the vindi one was upgraded, but wasn't aware the rapiers were.

[Slips]

 

 

What's the general consensus on laser rapiers for anti tank? I've been looking for anti tank in different parts of the FOC since the terror assault allows only one heavy support.

Decent, if Immobile. With their Stealth Buff to 48" its not so much of a Problem but you'll want to give them the best LoS possible to shoot things which, conversely, means it'll be easier to shoot them.

Sorry, Where did rapier batteries get this, is it in tempest?

I know the vindi one was upgraded, but wasn't aware the rapiers were.

 

Conquest, actually. But its kinda contentious since its the Solar Auxilia Las Destroyer Rapier Battery in the book itself but in the Reference Sheets that came with the Spec Ed, the Legion ones are also 48"

Edited May 28, 2015 by Slipstreams

[GreyCrow]

Quick question, do you guys think it's worth it to drop 55 points of gear on Terminators (2 Power fists out of 4 + Chainfist), a Praetor (going from Iron Halo to Refractor and Paragon Blade + Volkite Charger to BP+Legantine Axe of the Ultras) and a Havoc Launcher on a Dread in order to add a Laser Rapier ? (Considering another with a Thudd Gun is already int he list)

[Brofist]

Is it your only source of AT? If it is, then probably not. Unless its a low points game. Even with the 48" buff its still just a single shot. If it was heavy 2 or forced re-rolling of cover saves then maybe it would be worth it. As it stands, by itself it's not enough.

[Theredknight]

 

 

 

 

What's the general consensus on laser rapiers for anti tank? I've been looking for anti tank in different parts of the FOC since the terror assault allows only one heavy support.

Decent, if Immobile. With their Stealth Buff to 48" its not so much of a Problem but you'll want to give them the best LoS possible to shoot things which, conversely, means it'll be easier to shoot them.

Sorry, Where did rapier batteries get this, is it in tempest?

I know the vindi one was upgraded, but wasn't aware the rapiers were.

Conquest, actually. But its kinda contentious since its the Solar Auxilia Las Destroyer Rapier Battery in the book itself but in the Reference Sheets that came with the Spec Ed, the Legion ones are also 48"

Are we sure it's not a mis print? I only ask because when I use them, it will be contested!