Xenith Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I can never find the points for HB. Too expensive for my blood. Add the stormraven with HB first, then other units. Works wonders ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4002625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Add the stormraven with HB first, then other units. Works wonders Nah. HB just aren't efficient enough to prioritise their inclusion over other stuff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4002646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Such as? Genuine question. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4002648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovidius Incertus Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I'd say a demi-squad's worth of bolter fire for 30 pts is a fair cost and definitely worth it against hordes or squish enemies (DE, GEQ, etc.). You can put out a lot of dakka with a single 'Raven, so it definitely has it's perks. And just use magnets so you can have your anti-air/armor and anti-infantry in one model. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4002716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Such as? Genuine question. Give me a list and I'll tell you. I'd say a demi-squad's worth of bolter fire for 30 pts is a fair cost and definitely worth it against hordes or squish enemies (DE, GEQ, etc.). You can put out a lot of dakka with a single 'Raven, so it definitely has it's perks. And just use magnets so you can have your anti-air/armor and anti-infantry in one model. It's not really a question of wether the HB are worth 30 pts in and of themselves. It's rather an issue of "do I need anti-GEQ firepower on my anti-air unit?" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4002786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 But the stormraven is primarily a warzone transport / gunship. It needs guns... The only thing that screwed up the issue of flyers as transports is the generic "you cannot disembark if you moved over 6-inches rule" which is arguably a bad choice for a flyer. Although Stormravens have the ability to allow units to jump off (but then cannot assault that turn)...it just does not cut it in some games - especially if your opponent expects the aerial assault and plans for it. About the only good thing is that you can at least jink... Tactically the vehicle is designed for you to fly onto the table, soften up or eliminate a secondary target on turn 2, then turn and hammer the primary target on turn 3 while the transported unit(s) disembark and into the assault, potentially vs the primary unit - the purpose of the missiles (concussive) are for that reason - and I guess the designers figured you'd only need 4 missiles for the game...and the fact that your Stormraven (statistically) may have crashed and burned by turn 4...if you are not resigned to that overall tactic, then you may as well skip the Stormraven completely and just deep strike in or pod in, and use the Stormraven points for another unit completely. It is more about style of tactical play and function. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4002827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 But the stormraven is primarily a warzone transport / gunship. It needs guns... I really couldn't care less what the Raven is supposed to be. Fact of the matter is, its the only decent anti-air option available to us (outside of FW). Ipso facto, I use it as such. The day we get access to some other form of effective anti-air, I may reconsider. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4002872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 But the stormraven is primarily a warzone transport / gunship. It needs guns... I really couldn't care less what the Raven is supposed to be. Fact of the matter is, its the only decent anti-air option available to us (outside of FW). Ipso facto, I use it as such. The day we get access to some other form of effective anti-air, I may reconsider. Like Quad guns? They're much cheaper. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4003093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Aegis defense line w quad or Icarus gun... Even BA devs with flak... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4003094 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 In a tournament, I had a stormraven come in w/ 2 stormtalons, the opponent had the icarus AA gun behind an Aegis line. He rolled a single 5 to hit, then a 6 to pen, I rolled a 1 on my Jink, he rolled a 6 to blow up the Stormraven. I lost everything on board. It was a bad day... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4003095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Like Quad guns? They're much cheaper. Aegis defense line w quad or Icarus gun... Even BA devs with flak... All of that is woefully inefficient, unfortunately. Quad gun used to be great AA, but the nerf to Interceptor... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4003142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LutherMax Posted April 9, 2015 Author Share Posted April 9, 2015 Quad guns are static. Easy to hide from. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4003147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Hurricane bolters took down a tiger shark tau flier for me. I've never found myself regretting taking them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4003232 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadman Wade Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 I find Raven quite ineffective as anti-air with multi-melta and lascannon loadout. 4+ jink saves make single shot weapons lackluster, and even worse against FMCs. Against other flyers raven will have one turn of shooting at best due to limited maneuverability. Quad gun with flakk devastators, even though they are overcosted, make much better anti-air than Raven while being more versatile. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4003360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 That's why you take the assault cannons instead of the lascannons Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4003409 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LutherMax Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 You have to weigh up weapon strength with shots. Assault cannon, heavy bolter and hurricane bolters is a LOT of shots, which is generally what I prefer. Lascannon, multi melta and no hurricane bolters is just two shots. Higher strength but even with the TL re-rolls there's a big chance of misses and wasted shooting turns. It's happened to me a couple of times :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4003442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadman Wade Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Yeah, I've seen to many multi-melta 1s rerolled for another 1s :D That's why I take hurricane bolters, assault cannon and heavy bolter. Instead of relying on lucky melta and lascannon shots against vehicles and flyers, I use Raven just shoot at infantry and MCs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4003458 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 I find Raven quite ineffective as anti-air with multi-melta and lascannon loadout. 4+ jink saves make single shot weapons lackluster, and even worse against FMCs. Against other flyers raven will have one turn of shooting at best due to limited maneuverability. I never take the lascannon. MM + AssCan is the way to go, imo. Quad gun with flakk devastators, even though they are overcosted, make much better anti-air than Raven while being more versatile. Not against any kind of competent opponent. Any static anti-air will be dead long before it is a problem for him/her. And on top of that, if your opponent didn't bring any air units, you just wasted a whole bunch of points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4003501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Im in the same boat as Deschenus - see the value of the HB, but can never make the points for it. The times ive played with the HB, i've been very impressed, but my lists are fine tuned to within 5 points. Finding 30 points in that hugely removes an aspect of my army that I need - especially at 1500 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4003521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadman Wade Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 I find Raven quite ineffective as anti-air with multi-melta and lascannon loadout. 4+ jink saves make single shot weapons lackluster, and even worse against FMCs. Against other flyers raven will have one turn of shooting at best due to limited maneuverability. I never take the lascannon. MM + AssCan is the way to go, imo. Quad gun with flakk devastators, even though they are overcosted, make much better anti-air than Raven while being more versatile. Not against any kind of competent opponent. Any static anti-air will be dead long before it is a problem for him/her. And on top of that, if your opponent didn't bring any air units, you just wasted a whole bunch of points. To be effective as anti-air Raven needs to arrive after enemy flyers, shoot immediately and cause a lot of damage through 4+ jink. After that it will either spend a couple of turns trying to position itself or needs to find another target. Yeah, flakk missiles cost a lot points, and quad-gun even more (but QG is still useful against skimmers). But if you're fighting hordes of infantry or tyranid FMC you pay 200 points on something that will do nothing for entire game. Also, raven isn't that tough either. IMO Raven isn't good enough as anti-air for it's cost. But with hurricane bolters it's awesome anti-infantry and support flyer. Maybe I got bad luck, but without hurricane bolters I struggled to justify taking it as anti-air or anti-vehicle, especially after my games against orks, nids, necron, tau and daemons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4003547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 HB are worth 30pts. With PotMS they can shoot at a second target and fire 18 TL boltgun shots, that will more than likely kill more than 30pts worth of infantry even in a single volley. I'll always get them when I have points to spare. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4003626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 How do you get eighteen? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4003629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtarador Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 The way I see it, the stormraven is already quite expensive. Doubling the anti-infantry firepower for a not so large increase is well worth it in my opinion. If you field it, you probably already build your list around it, so it might just as well have the appropriate amount of firepower ^^ it just adds so much value against many armies. Even against MEQ you look at ~2 dead models per shooting phase, which makes a big difference when cleaning up backfield troops. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4003631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 That's why you take the assault cannons instead of the lascannons If you do that you are effectively useless at beyond 24", which is less than ideal for how I like my Gunships.. Me, I get the Cyclone ML and TLLC, and use it as a pure Gunship, destroying armored targets in the air and on the ground, from range. I also stick a Tactical Squad in there (and get the HB sponsons if points permitting) for late game objective grabbing, so it's a very heavy basket, and I'm kind of biased towards preserving it.. How do you get eighteen? 3 twin linked bolters on each side, firing twice, that's 12. Then you add 6 more because you fail at Math. In other words, that was my error. Still, of the 12 you'll miss about half, which will then re-roll and hit half of that, which is 9 hits. That's kind of equivalent to your average 18 Boltgun shots at BS4. Not that it was what I was thinking at the time. Regardless, the HB sponsons will score around 9 Boltgun hits at 12" range, and that's worth 30pts for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4003633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 In my opinion BA is so effective at dealing with light infantry in general the sponsons become over-redundant. If i have points left over (which i never do) i'd rather have deathwind ML's on pods or something similar vs infantry. I don't really think we need anti-air (that should only be a silver lining) though and running it empty makes it over-priced to begin with. Meph loosing T6 and loss of ap1 rockets was quite a big nerf to Stormravens. Still good, but not good enough to be auto-include in all lists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305617-hurricane-bolters/page/2/#findComment-4003642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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