deekin Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Hey, got a few queries about the special FOCs and legion super heavies in general. Firstly what version of super heavies do we use regarding their legion listings still with structure points, what do we use to have them up to date with the HP system and by extension if we have to use the IA entries, are we able to use legion vehicle upgrades? Now on the FOCs, i don't really understand the legality of these lists and if i could say use them in tournaments and generally. Also, are you able to take multiple allied detachment as part of the leviathan FOC and can you take a RoW with any of the special FOCs? Thanks I've got the books on me so you can give me a page number if you like. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 The standard rate for exchanging SP for HP is SP x3. This is updated in the Red books and later campaign books. As for upgrades, no. Unless adding SM crew for SH tanks, or the other upgrade I forget, only uprades are those within the other IA entry. Please see my sig for available LoW. In regards to rules, IIRC, they were listed as alternative options for fun. Check with tournament runner first (as turning up with a Falchion and 2 Typhons is top of 'how to lose friends' lists for example). And no, only 1 allied detachment. This is anchored in the terrible 6th edition rueset. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/#findComment-4003152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dono1979 Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 The alternative FOC in the various books are used reasonably freely in normal gaming and most 30K specific events (except for Leviathan) in combination with the below game scenarios. In addition, the standard game FOCs (except for Age of Darkness) are used INSTEAD of a Rites of War, in other words you can use an alternative FOC and a Rites of War. No matter which FOC you use, FW have made it clear that they are keeping the list writing method of 6th Edition which is a far superior method for 30K (imo), avoiding the game breaking combinations from Detachments and Unbound. Courtesy of Garro from Heresy 30K forum: Standard FoC Age of Darkness FoC-your standard basic FoC,-has +1HQ, +1 Elite than the 40k FoC Onslaught FoC-designed for tank heavy forces-+1 heavy support, less troops and fast attacks, 2 Lords of War, no fortifications or allies Castellan FoC-designed for fortification forces-less elites, fast attack and 4 fortification slots, one of which is compulsory Leviathan FoC-primary Detachment replaces by 1-3 lord of war slots, 1 LoW is compulsory, and is not effected by the 25% rule, also gains special warlord trait-only extras is a single allies detachment Zone Mortalis FoC optionsfor use in the Zone Mortalis expansion, attacker and defender FoCs gain access to specialist warlord tables standard-2 HQs, 2 elites, 3 troops, 2 fast attack, 1 heavy support Attacker+1 elite slot, 1 elite choice compulsory instead of troops choice defender+1 troop and heavy support slots Strategic raid missions FoC raider FoC- 3HQs, 6 elites, 4 troops, 4 fast attack, 2 heavy support, LoW, allies detachment-restrictions on LoW options, night fighting in effect turn 1, D3+2 units gain outflank and infiltrate, seize the initiative on 4+ Garrison FoC-3HQs, 6 troops, 2 elites, 2 fast attack, 4 heavy support, LoW, 1-3 fortifications, allies detachment-may move any placed objective markers by 6" before start of turn 1, City Fight FoCmay only be used in the City Fight expansion (book4) Incursion FoC-1HQ, 3 troops, 1 fast attack, 1 elites, 1heavy support-1HQ, 2 troops and the heavy support are compulsory. this detachment may be taken up to three times, however only a single HQ can be a praetor-allies and Lord of war as well.-all troops gain objective secured, infantry units within 6" of a vehicle gains interceptor Entrenched FoC-1HQ, 6 troops, 2 elites, 1 fast attack, 3 heavy support, 0-3 fortifications, LoW and allies as normal-troops have objective secured, all infantry units gain +1 to cover saves on turn one caused by city terrain Army Specific FoC Questoris Knight Crusade army FoC-2 HQs, 5 troops, 3 elites, 2 fast attacks, 2 heavy supports, LoW and allies, no fortifications-1 HQ and 1 troop complusory, may only be used by the Knights army list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/#findComment-4003179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deekin Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 Thanks for clearing that up for me, really just wanting to field my thunderhawk in 3k games but don't really want to give up my RoW. The standard rate for exchanging SP for HP is SP x3. This is updated in the Red books and later campaign books. Hesh did you have a page number for the SP -> HP stuff, specifically for the thunderhawk would be fine. Thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/#findComment-4003354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dono1979 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Which Rites of War are you running? Unless it is a random one which isnt springing to mind, and you arent running any other Lord of War, there isnt anything to stop you from fielding the Thunderhawk, as long as it is 750 points or less Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/#findComment-4003377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deekin Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 Which Rites of War are you running? Unless it is a random one which isnt springing to mind, and you arent running any other Lord of War, there isnt anything to stop you from fielding the Thunderhawk, as long as it is 750 points or less Legion ones starting at 900 points is the problem, could try running the one out of IA but wouldn't have the points to put the turbo-laser on it and it cant carry dreads etc. But if i wanted to be running a 750 point one from IA would be that permissible? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/#findComment-4003427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 See my signature. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/#findComment-4003430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deekin Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 See my signature. Ah right, thanks. One last thing, didn't conclude on the SP->HP thing. So would a legion thunderhawk have 12HP? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/#findComment-4003436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Normally, yes. But the Red Books have stealth erratad a lot of rules. I'd suggest picking them up. In this case, the THawk drops to 9HP and costs 685pts base. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/#findComment-4003441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deekin Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 Normally, yes. But the Red Books have stealth erratad a lot of rules. I'd suggest picking them up. In this case, the THawk drops to 9HP and costs 685pts base. Huh, didn't even look in there, assumed it was just a compacted version with no actual changes. Shame i can't field the turbo-destructor as that's what it is modeled with. Will have to model up a thunderhawk cannon, doubt it'll be very hard as it's just a glorified battle cannon. Glad i can load it up with dreadnoughts still. Thanks Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/#findComment-4003504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 You can field the Turbo Destructor o.O. The Red Books have it as an option. That is an upgrade option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/#findComment-4004268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deekin Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 You can field the Turbo Destructor o.O. The Red Books have it as an option. That is an upgrade option. I know but if i took it it would put it up to 775 points thus over the 3K LoW point limit. Just so i don't have to make another thread, what would be the best upgrades to get for the thunderhawk with the 65 points to spend. I'm thinking void crafted-hull just on the principle of 'only as strong as your weakest member' but not sure on the any of the other upgrades. Do you guys think chaff launcher/armored cockpit are worthwhile? P.S. wow, you could have 13 all round with 14 against blasts taking all three of the big upgrades. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/#findComment-4004340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 You can field the Turbo Destructor o.O. The Red Books have it as an option. That is an upgrade option. I know but if i took it it would put it up to 775 points thus over the 3K LoW point limit. Just so i don't have to make another thread, what would be the best upgrades to get for the thunderhawk with the 65 points to spend. I'm thinking void crafted-hull just on the principle of 'only as strong as your weakest member' but not sure on the any of the other upgrades. Do you guys think chaff launcher/armored cockpit are worthwhile? P.S. wow, you could have 13 all round with 14 against blasts taking all three of the big upgrades. You could always go Imperial Fists, take Dorn and give him Aetos Dios* as his dedicated transport. *A thunderhawk that doesn't take an FoC slot, has a 4++ vs Missiles, a Turbolaser and other gubbins all for a flat 600 points (not including the 385 you're already investing into Dorn). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/#findComment-4004374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deekin Posted April 11, 2015 Author Share Posted April 11, 2015 You could always go Imperial Fists, take Dorn and give him Aetos Dios* as his dedicated transport. *A thunderhawk that doesn't take an FoC slot, has a 4++ vs Missiles, a Turbolaser and other gubbins all for a flat 600 points (not including the 385 you're already investing into Dorn). Yeah, that is what i was looking at but have decided to go with Iron Hands since then, pretty crazy the fists get it with all the trimmings with essentially a free primarch to boot. Any opinions on the 5 optional upgrades (Ramjet diffraction grid etc.) as i've got a 65 point budget so need to be very choosey. Thanks Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/#findComment-4004423 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 The boost to rear AV is near mandatory, imo, especially on a LoW unit that is this expensive. After that, Priority would be to Flare Shields and Ramjet Diffraction Grid. Boosting the Av up to 13 on all facings is great. Again, especially because its so expensive. Chaff Launcher is debatable. If you know your opponents AA will consist of mostly Missiles, good investment. If not, dont bother. Consider that most 30k Marine AA comes in the form of Skyfire/Interceptor from Deredeos and Contemptor Mortis'; thus more shooting than missiles. If you know they'll be bringing Primaris-Lightnings with Kraken Penetrators, Take the Chaff since thats S8 Ap1 Armourbane. Armored Cockpit is, imo, the lowest priority upgrade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/#findComment-4004430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deekin Posted April 11, 2015 Author Share Posted April 11, 2015 It can come in at a cool 720 in that case. I had a similar feeling with the AV12 rear, even ramjet leaves it vulnerable to heavy bolters and such. Thanks again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/#findComment-4004440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Oh, also forgot, Aetos Dios, while already being cheaper than a Thunderhawk with a Turbolaser + Gear also has a single Void Shield on it included in its price to make it even tougher. Edit: it also has IWND, forgot that too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/#findComment-4004458 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 The Aetos Dios is still against Dorns Lord of War limit. So it might be cheap, but it takes up part of Dorns allowance. And there is nothing saying it can be upgraded further either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/#findComment-4004546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deekin Posted April 11, 2015 Author Share Posted April 11, 2015 The Aetos Dios is still against Dorns Lord of War limit. So it might be cheap, but it takes up part of Dorns allowance. And there is nothing saying it can be upgraded further either. This would actually make it somewhat balanced but I'm not sure it's the case (the LoW limit bit) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/#findComment-4005205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 It is unclear. It is a DT, which (AFB) means it shares the same slot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/#findComment-4005417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krikey Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 The rules for Ætos Dios specifically allow it to be taken as DT for Dorn in games of 3000 points or more, even though it fills and it does not fill a LoW slot. ~K Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/#findComment-4005611 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dono1979 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 As Krikey says, the rules for it specifically state that you can take it in a 3,000 points game indicating that the Thunderhawk itself does not count towards the points total of the LoW slot. The grey area is whether it is able to be upgraded or not, it says it is a Thunderhawk with the additional rules, we are inclined to allow the upgrades in our group, it seems a little crazy that a custom made Thunderhawk for a Primarch doesnt have access to some of the basic upgrades of the regular Legion version. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305812-leviathan-foc/#findComment-4006100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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