warp tainted a.i. , data daemons,and sentience vs. soul...?

[Rheteric]

Oddly enough, I just noticed a post pertaining to similar subject matter. However, I feel this topic is distinct enough to merit it's own post. I hope you all agree and can help us all gain some more insight on the matter.

 

So a friend and I were discussing corruption, possession, and daemonic transcendence in the grimdark

And he brought up how in the grey knights omnibus...or potentially dark mechanicum(I was certain it was the former, but after reading the data daemon post in the chaos daemons section I'm beginning to second guess myself lol)...

 

***spoiler alert****

 

It discusses how technology became corrupted. He said daemons made of data were jumping between/into Crystal constructs and that an actual mega-titan THOUGHT it was a daemon and due to this, ultimately became one(or possessed by one...?)

 

Now as far as I know, one needs a soul in order to be eligible for corruption, let alone a valid candidate for apotheosis into daemonhood.

 

I would think a self aware machine has no more of a soul or even true sentience than a necron or a man of iron(provided I don't know much about the latter)

 

So can anyone please clarify?Did my friend read it wrong? Can sentient machines be corrupted or possessed(niether?both?)

 

Ps.he also went on to mention that the grey knight(s) fighting the daemonic titan's anti-chaos magic/tech worked on the titan. So to me that implies a genuine taint...if that's the case, could the a.I. have constructed a program so similar to the essence of the Warp that it gained all of the strengths and weaknesses that come with it, or was it truly and wholly tainted/corrupted?

[Teetengee]

Few things: mostly just my opinions though,
Necrons are called soulless, but they are also warp anathema, so that makes some amount of sense.

Machine spirits are a thing, particularly in larger machines and titans, where they pick up bits and pieces of all the previous pilots. In a sense, machines have a soul, particularly when the beings repairing them think they do hard enough. (As that is basically how anything works that is warp related.)

 

Daemons are given power by the chaos gods, if you didn't have a soul to start with, I am pretty sure you would get one.

 

Corruption and possession are slightly different, corruption comes from within and may lead to possession, but possession is an external being that is then funneled into you.

[Rheteric]

Thanks for the prompt reply! However, I'm afraid your answers raise more questions lol

 

Aren't necrons anathema to the Warp BECSUSE they're soulless?

 

I get the whole machine spirit thing for the most part.my grasp on it is akin to how a.d.b portrayed them in the night lords books.so I can see how what little sentience they have can be tainted by influence, but to BECOME a daemon seems beyond its capabilities..I would think it could be possessed to a degree tho. A "ghost in the machine" sort of thing I suppose

 

Can the chaos gods create souls?! I had no idea that was within their power.honestly I don't even think they truly make demons.the way I see it, they can either twist souls into daemons OR our emotions manifest as daemons that inevitably fall under any or all of the rp's dominion based on the source/essence

 

I totally get and agree w. What you're saying in regards to corruption and possession. Ultimately I can see either or happening to a machine...but for said machine to achieve daemonhood seems a few steps beyond both possession and corruption, no?

[Canadian_F_H]

It is alluded somewhere that the war of the iron man was caused by chaos corrupting influence on advanced AI. Also 40k is an animistic system in that the power and divinity of a thing come from its worshippers. The ork gods exist because of the works belief in them.

 

The god emperor presumably can effect the material world only because so many billions of mankind believe he can. Hence the faith powers of the sob which were separate from psychic powers at one point in the rules, but I don't know where they stand nowadays...

 

There is more to it, but that's as well as I understand it.

[Teetengee]

Daemons also come from (mainly come from, all come from???) the chaos gods separating off a small portion of themselves as a separate entity.

[The Red Thirst]

Meet Frank:
http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee410/TheRedThirst/Irradial_Cogitator_zpsiysz54wd.jpg
 

Frank, is a corrupted cogitator of the Dark Mechanicus, his duties include, data mining, atmospheric control and consuming your soul for the benefit of the Chaos Gods.

On a more serious note, your not thinking grim-dark enough ;) what I mean by that is most 'natural' things in our day and age are vastly different to its 40k counterpart. Take your computer for example, nothing but a CPU, Motherboard, Hard drive, cards and fans. the 40k equivilant could be a servitor, a physical human who has had his brain reprogrammed to carry out menial tasks for his overlord. Something as valuable as a human life doesnt mean much in 40k and a cheap and vastly limitless source of computing power can be found in human brains. 

 

With this in mind [haha puns], it is my opinion that most complex machines could possibly incorporate human grey matter in their processing unit, grey matter that at one point may have had a life and by extension a soul. From what I can tell the mechanicus of mars suppresses the mind of the former 'owner' to allow for more cold calculating machine processing, however I think their counterparts of the Dark Mechanicus are a little less 'hardline' with their love of the machine, and to me try to create a mesh of man, chaos and machine to create their vision of the perfect being.

 

With Titans you also have to remember that the Princeps controlling it has a direct link to its machine-spirit via mind impulse units, this allows human emotion and thought process to meld with the cogitator units that make up the Titans own 'mind' [machine-spirit]. This link, as shown in various novels can be dangerous to both the princeps and the Titan itself and would make it vulnerable to outside influences or corruptions. In the case of chaos titans the princeps has completely fused with his titan to become one being and in effect gives the Titan a soul, this can lead to its physical corruption [see forge worlds chaos titan cockpit images: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Titans/CHAOS-WARHOUND-TITAN-BODY.html ]

 

To me, its not as simple as saying, "its a machine, therefor it doesnt feel", dont forget that mankind at one point in the 40k story line had a war against their Men of Iron, machines created by man in the image of themselves with such advanced processing units that they may have even had 'emotions' themselves, maybe even 'souls' we just dont know as this information is 'lost' haha. 

[Gorkimedes]

If a machine is fully sentient with emotions and desires I suppose an argument could be made that it would have a soul or at least affect the warp. Would it matter to khorne if anger came from a fancy sci fi computer matrix instead of a brain?

[Teetengee]

If a machine is fully sentient with emotions and desires I suppose an argument could be made that it would have a soul or at least affect the warp. Would it matter to khorne if anger came from a fancy sci fi computer matrix instead of a brain?

BUT IT DOESN"T BLEED BLOOOOODDDDD!!

 

Although I don't think the rest of the four would care.

[Scribe]

Great topic, something that I've always wanted to find an exhaustive source for.

 

A.I we know is Heresy, but Machine Spirit isnt.

Daemons are 'soul stuff' made manifest in the flesh.

Warp Energy is also soul stuff. As energy can move via circuits, via hand-wavium why not Warp Energy?

Warp Energy can animate or corrupt 'inanimate' real space material.

 

Titans (Knights, and other advanced Machines) have something else going on that is beyond the Machine Spirit, with a gestalt level of consciousness that can overwhelm the mind of those who control these machines.

 

Soul is different than awareness to me. You need more than the ability to feel emotion.