Are Land Raiders Still Worth It?

[The Unseen]

So, I've been thinking of building a mechanized blood angel force, since my old list of all jumpers is not possible anymore, and was wondering if Land Raiders are worth bringing these days. It's been 2 editions since I put one on the table, and just wanted to know how people find they do in 7th Ed.

 

If it helps, I'm thinking either assault terminators in a crusader with corbulo or generic priest, or DC with a chaplain in either a redeemer or crusader.

 

I've had terrible luck with the standard one, its to schizophrenic to be good at anything.

[Jolemai]

Your answer will vary from meta to meta. The internet will say no for a variety of reasons (theory and anecdotes) but like anything in out Codex, that can work if used correctly. Like any expensive unit, you want to build your list around it to make the most of it.

 

As an aside, why can you no longer do an all jumper force?

[Red-beard]

Some people will say they are not very good. I am one of the people who still enjoy and field LRs. Primarily, I field a Redeemer with a multi-melta. 

 

Like other mechanized options, I find that LRs work best when you have other high AV vehicles in your list (Furiosos, Predators, Vindicator, DC dreads, etc.). Your LR may eventually die before it earns its points back, but if it does, it usually means your opponent focused all his anti-tank on the LR, and as a result, your other vehicles will survive and be much more effective. 

 

I view the LR as a vehicle force multiplier of sorts. Being able to safely deliver a mean CC unit into combat turn 2 is obviously the other benefit. 

[The Unseen]

Your answer will vary from meta to meta. The internet will say no for a variety of reasons (theory and anecdotes) but like anything in out Codex, that can work if used correctly. Like any expensive unit, you want to build your list around it to make the most of it.

 

As an aside, why can you no longer do an all jumper force?

 

I can't do an all jumpers list because my only troop options are tacticals and scouts? And don't even breath the word unbound. It's pathetic; Ohh, just total your points up and plop whatever you feel like using on the table. For fun games, you could always do that. It's called talking to your opponent before the game, and not being a total dick. Anyway, sorry, some people in my area like to abuse unbound.

[Jolemai]

You should look into the Flesh Tearers Strike Force detachment. Base info (such as where to find it) can be found here. Also, edit your post. They don't like asterisks around here!

[The Unseen]

If that detachment gave The Red Thirst, rather than a very unreliable charge benefit, I would consider it.

[Bukimimaru]

Not that its especially viable, but if you really had your heart set on ALL jump packs, Raffens Death Company is a troop choice.

 

 

 

Sadly the FleshTearers abilities aren’t quite as good as the standard Blood Angel one, but if you legitimately take:

 

 

 

HQ with jump pack.

 

Raffens DC

 

 

 

you have fulfilled the requirements to field a battleforged list, alongside 6 assault squads and 3 Vanguard/Deacthcompany/Sanginary Guard all with those precious jump packs.

 

 

 

Boom, all Jumpers list. (Just don’t expect to win any tournaments. ;) )

 

 

Back on the topic of Landraiders, I've been dying to pick up a crusader to fill with my otherwise "too-slow-to-be-useful" Assualt Terminators, but as it stands I have 0 exp when it comes to using them.

[Remtek]

In my opinion they are not worth their points, but you can make some solid lists with them. Kinda ironic how they made jump lists strong again, but removed our jump troops.  I'd suggest giving your old jump units a black paint job. 

 

There is a recent batrep here of a BA double Land Raider list doing decent in a tournament if you want some inspiration.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/640326.page

[Vel'Cona]

That's a good point by Remtek.  While LRs still have a place in the current game, the best way to use them is en masse.  2-3 give you the saturation effect you need, because it's inevitable that your opponent will bring one down before they hit home.  The other important aspect is what you're putting in them.  Hammernators are still as good as ever but they're more expensive than before and the assault phase just isn't what it was back in 5th edition.  It's better to have a unit that isn't neutered when the LR pops, like Death Company or even pack-less Assault Marines.

 

The last point I'd make is which LR you're going for.  Since they're assault transports, you really can't go wrong with any of them but I agree the stock LR is probably the worst from a pure assault transport perspective (and you can get Lascannons elsewhere in the list for cheaper).  I prefer the LRC because the extra capacity lets me flex my squads and attached characters more, but the LRR isn't bad if you don't mind losing some capacity and are willing to accept that its guns will only come into play 1/3 of your games.

[Jolemai]

If that detachment gave The Red Thirst, rather than a very unreliable charge benefit, I would consider it.

 

I realise I'm taking this off topic so I'll leave this tangent with the following: if you still played a jump list when the fifth edition became the sixth, then I really don't see the problem :)

 

In my opinion they are not worth their points, but you can make some solid lists with them. Kinda ironic how they made jump lists strong again, but removed our jump troops.  I'd suggest giving your old jump units a black paint job. 

 

There is a recent batrep here of a BA double Land Raider list doing decent in a tournament if you want some inspiration.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/640326.page

 

Cheers for that. A very unusual list that played the meta well. Intriguing...

[Charlo]

That's a good point by Remtek. While LRs still have a place in the current game, the best way to use them is en masse. 2-3 give you the saturation effect you need, because it's inevitable that your opponent will bring one down before they hit home. The other important aspect is what you're putting in them. Hammernators are still as good as ever but they're more expensive than before and the assault phase just isn't what it was back in 5th edition. It's better to have a unit that isn't neutered when the LR pops, like Death Company or even pack-less Assault Marines.

The last point I'd make is which LR you're going for. Since they're assault transports, you really can't go wrong with any of them but I agree the stock LR is probably the worst from a pure assault transport perspective (and you can get Lascannons elsewhere in the list for cheaper). I prefer the LRC because the extra capacity lets me flex my squads and attached characters more, but the LRR isn't bad if you don't mind losing some capacity and are willing to accept that its guns will only come into play 1/3 of your games.

Two LR with a medium DC in each with the proper tools + perhaps a chaplain in one of them could work wonders. One is basically guarantee'd to make contact with the foe. You could be really sneaky too and make one a Redeemer, as this is going to get shot at more because no one wants to be hit by those flamers, you then put the less threatening DC in it sans the Chaplain, that way they have a tougher choice to make. Sure, some Necrons Gauss or Skitarii Haywire may ruin your day but that's about it!

Plus you'll still have what, 1k+ points to play around with in a typical game? If your Alpha is strong and can cripple their anti tank and provide even more threat saturation through frag dreads you'll be in a winner here. Plus our Grav bikes with a Sanginary priest will do wonders too.

Plus two land raiders looks awesome, you could even go one further by going triple big box and get a Raven too, with more DC inside!

Who says we aren't a competitive codex!

Sorry this has turned into a bit of an over analysis post, but hopefully there's some nuggets of help in there

[DominicJ]

Grav Guns have killed the Land Raider

Ive not math hammered it but A GravTurian squad has killed or 1hped a LR of mine on several occasions.

 

If they arent a local factor, go for it, not "the best" choice but loads of fun. 

[Shaezus]

I had a great time running a redeemer in last ed, but it got one-shotted as often as glanced and maybe the Caestus was better, where accepted at least. 

 

On the bad side, most armies will have something that can penetrate AV 14 in shooting or up close, and then there's being glanced to death by things like grav and Gauss; Necrons would be your bane. Eldar have enough to mess up your assault before it begins (Wraithknights tended to one-shot stuff in my games against them) whilst Dark Elves can pretty much kill LRs as easily as they can kill Rhinos. So on. But that doesn't mean don't try them, just that maybe it is best, as mentioned above, to take 2 or 3 of them. I wouldn't mind trying two or three termie assault squads with LRs, maybe one of each version.

[Charlo]

I think Vehicle rules need something to keep the Big Guys less susceptible to glances overall. Maybe something like AV14 is a 4+ invuln against all glances or something, with AV13 being a 5+, 12 being a 6+ and below no benefits?

 

Edit: OR maybe just land raiders need that rule really as they are supposed to be a hulking box of ceramite that is nigh indestructible, and being killed by a couple of tiny EMP grenades is a bit stupid.

[The Unseen]

I'm not worried about necrons (Their my alt army that I picked up), anything they have to hurt av14 is also the only thing they have to hurt tanks at all, and its only really effective at 12". Which is charge range. Never ran into DE myself. Grav Bikers of course will hurt. And its well known that land raiders are over costed for what they bring, but they are also the only way to bring assault termies, or run an assaulty squad in a mech list.

 

This is a list I came up with doing a little fiddling.

 

Chaplain-Stock

 

12 DC, 2 PW

 

Land Raider Crusader

Pintle Multi Melta

 

Tactical Squad 10 man

Heavy Flamer, Flamer, Rhino

 

Tactical Squad 10 man

Heavy Flamer, Flamer, Rhino

 

Assault Squad, (5)

2 Meltaguns, Rhino

 

Assault Squad, (5)

2 Meltaguns, Rhino

 

Assault Squad, (5)

2 Meltaguns, Rhino

 

Furioso Dreadnought

Blood Talons

 

Furioso Dreadnought

Blood Talons

 

Vindicator

Overcharged Engines, Siege Shield

 

Vindicator

Overcharged Engines, Siege Shield

[Charlo]

I'm not worried about necrons (Their my alt army that I picked up), anything they have to hurt av14 is also the only thing they have to hurt tanks at all, and its only really effective at 12". Which is charge range. Never ran into DE myself. Grav Bikers of course will hurt. And its well known that land raiders are over costed for what they bring, but they are also the only way to bring assault termies, or run an assaulty squad in a mech list.

 

This is a list I came up with doing a little fiddling.

 

Chaplain-Stock

 

12 DC, 2 PW

 

Land Raider Crusader

Pintle Multi Melta

 

Tactical Squad 10 man

Heavy Flamer, Flamer, Rhino

 

Tactical Squad 10 man

Heavy Flamer, Flamer, Rhino

 

Assault Squad, (5)

2 Meltaguns, Rhino

 

Assault Squad, (5)

2 Meltaguns, Rhino

 

Assault Squad, (5)

2 Meltaguns, Rhino

 

Furioso Dreadnought

Blood Talons

 

Furioso Dreadnought

Blood Talons

 

Vindicator

Overcharged Engines, Siege Shield

 

Vindicator

Overcharged Engines, Siege Shield

 

I like it! But I would consider dropping one assault squad to give the dreads Pods if possible and one of the death company a fist!

 

This will give you some nice alpha strike, I'd almost be tempted to put a 3rd empty deathwind pod in so that you can put both Furioso's down turn one, this will take the heat off your other tanks considerably! 

[Cronhour]

I'd stick some of that in pods. It'll give you turn one distractions and popping power for the land raiders to move up. Stick all the assault marines in pods and you get 2 dropping turn one.

[Captain Caine 24th]

My thought is that they had their day when the new model style came out (2000?). They certainly can be good, but situations vary as stated by the others here. Melta, haywire, fusion blasters, vanquisher cannons, etc. prove to be formidable challenges. 

 

On the positive side. AV14 all around. Twin linked S9 guns with 48" range or hurricane bolters or a heavy duty template weapon. It's a big model and draws a lot of attention. It can be hard to remove outright from play without specialized anti-tank weapons. The transport capacity is good as well. Assault vehicle is great. Power of the machine spirit can be very helpful. 

 

On the negative side. I just don't think it evolved with the times. High toughness multi-wound monstrous creatures have been prevalent for a while now, and they seem to be getting stronger(they don't get shaken like tanks, or lose firepower after taking wounds like infantry). The landraider lacks the firepower needed for the modern edition of these creatures and flyers. Twin-linked lascannons haven't aged all that well in the advent of jink saves and cover save buffs. Possibly killed in 1 shot. Deep striking anti-tank units is also significantly safer (and severely problematic for landraiders) in the newer editions.

 

Here's my wishlist: a reasonable base point drop with upgrade point cost increases, ceramite armor upgrades, dozer blade, revision of frag-launchers, torrent on the redeemer(well that might be too much), and more weapon choices like twin linked grav-cannons or some kind of high volume firepower. 

 

Ultimately if a landraider shows up with terminators/death company/vanguard/or whatever and your opponent hasn't planned for it, he is in big trouble. I think it really can be an effective tank. As far as my personal taste I prefer more small units as opposed to a glorious charge with a single massive unit.  That said i still use them occasionally in friendly games. And I agree with the above--I'd go with 2-3 in a tourney.