New Eldar

[Golden Aegis]

Dreadnoughts used to be a wonderful answer to scythes, but now we really have to just rely on picking them apart from range. Just one S10 template that pens/IDs most units on a 3+ is scary, five of them is terrifying, especially for their points.

[Charlo]

Wait wait wait, you mean to tell me Eldar can field a SQUAD of strength D flame weapons?

[Jolemai]

Wait wait wait, you mean to tell me Eldar can field a SQUAD of strength D flame weapons?

 

Wraithguard. A D-scythe is the alternative configuration to a Wraithcannon.

[Charlo]

That really takes the biscuit. I bet they are cheaper than terminators too! Oh well, maybe it's time to find a less expensive hobby :D

 

But in all seriousness what do you even do against that?

[Sigvard]

I have posted in the Codex Space Marines thread on this and I will re-iterate.

 

I think there is a danger of a sky is falling mentality here. Eldar are my 4th (5th) army, after Wolves, Blood Angels and Grey Knight (and Vanilla Marines - Starting an Astral Knights army after reading World Engine which is marvellous by the way). I am currently going through for my blog so giving it a good dressing down.

 

Scary points -  Guardian Warhost - 6" Run guaranteed for all models and Support Batteries and War Walkers have preferred enemy. However the formation is heavily points intensive. To point it out at its cheapest you are looking at 1000pts. Granted it is all good stuff but it forces the Eldar player into taking a varied list. Combine this however with some aspects and you have trouble. -  Banshees moving 21" first turn if they are in a transport and then assaulting you on turn 2 denying overwatch all with power weapons. BS5 Avengers within range of stuff turn one again if transported. However if your guys are placed correctly and make use of the table and transports it is not going to cause major issues.

 

Jetbikes -  the proliferation of 40 Jet Bikes is not going to be anywhere near what people think that it is, there is so much stuff in the new codex and the Jetbike list requires you to spend points points points on weapons and bikes and then are still required to take other things in list that ramps up the cost. Grav Bikers will eat these guys alive and Jet Bikes will not cause undue stress in return.

 

D Weapons -  The only cause for concern is the Wraithknight - his heavy Wraithcannons are going to cause issues however like before he is still able to be countered hard and the only thing that has improved his survivability is Feel No Pain. And I suppose that he cannot be forced I guess.

 

I think one of the things that can easily be forgotten when playing Marines is that we are very durable and very good and very versatile with what we can put on the table. Make use of the tools that are designed to kill Eldar. Bolters still ruin Guardians, as do Flamer, Wave Serpents are no longer going to cause you issues on a regular basis, they are durable but they are also 110pts now without Super Serpent Shield. Don't try and kill Jetbikes just make them Jink once that happens 40 dice hitting on 6's gives you roughly 7 hits. Also do bear in mind that for the most part Eldar are short ranged -  Catapults function at 12-18", D-Scythes are a template, Wraith Cannons are only 24". Pick your targets wisely, trust in the Codex (or not as your chapter decrees) and bring death to the Xenos.

 

 

A careful and considered application of force on each of the section is relevant. Building a list around Grav Spam is not the way to go. Taking Grav Cents to deal with a Wraithknight is a force application that proportionate. I have discovered with Eldar of late that if you give them multiple high priority targets to face all at one time they fall flat on their face. Whilst Scatter Lasers are now widely available on bikes I still do not believe bikes will be the most frequent choice of troops you will see. Guardians will still shore up the Eldar battle line, hell even storm guardians are viable. Take 20 of them, chuck in a farseer and warlock leader take Sanctic Daemonology and with Hammer Hand and possibly other powers you end up with 60 S5 Attacks on the charge which is nothing to be sneezed at.

[Jolemai]

That really takes the biscuit. I bet they are cheaper than terminators too! Oh well, maybe it's time to find a less expensive hobby

But in all seriousness what do you even do against that?

You shoot it. It's a Template so it's easy to kite.

[Karhedron]

Scythes have got a boost but they only count as S4 for the purposes of ID. Also they cannot roll a 6 on the Destroyer table due to the -1 penalty so they can only cause D3 wounds/HPs. Still pretty nasty but at least it is not automatic.

 

Put in a Wave Serpent and it is going to be very hard to stop the Scythes getting where they want. It will take dedicated firepower to put the transport down and then more firepower to kill the WG inside.

 

I am thinking that Grav bikes are probably the solution we are looking for. They are fast enough to catch the targets. They are AP2 so will get past those saves (or force jinking in the case of jetbikes), they have a decent rate of fire and they have a fixed to wound roll.

 

Volume of Grav is a promising answer to Bikes and Wraith units as well as being adequate against vehicles too. Trouble is more opponents will learn this quickly so multiple Grav units will be necessary. I am think 2 bikers units and an allied Centurion squad in drop pod should be enough to deal with even a heavy bike/wraith army.

[Captain Obvious]

Hello, Charlo!

 

As Jolemai pointed out: shoot them. 3+ armour, W1 and no invulnerability save make them rather fragile. (T6 is nice, however...) Vindicator is your friend! Alternatively you can outmanouver them. On their own they are footslogging infantry.

Yup, they can take a Wave Serpent as a dedicated transport. But the Wave Serpent is not open-topped therefore the Wraithguard has to disembark to use their flamers. And no disembarkation after more than 6' movement.

And let me repeat myself: a unit can only make one overwatch in the charge phase. Use something expendable to pull the wall of fire then send in the killing machines unmolested!

@Sigvard Listen to the man!

 

Captain Obvious

[Charlo]

Scout meat Shields, gotcha!

[Xenith]

A topic was started on this less than a week ago:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/306323-how-to-deal-with-the-new-eldar-jetbikes/

[Morticon]

merging these threads. 

[d@n]

The d scythes will delete a unit and then get deleted themselves, who care. The really worrying thing is just how many missile launchers they can take and they all come with flakk missiles.

[Morticon]

 

Scythes have got a boost but they only count as S4 for the purposes of ID.

 

 

Can someone explain that rumour to me?  I've seen that floating around, and I dont understand the mechanic in relation to how Str D usually works. 

Has this been confirmed? Or simply echoes?

[Rafen IX]

Ok so essentially d-scythes operate as follows.

They are destroyer weapon templates, with two modifiers.

1) they subtract 1 from rolls on the destroyer table (so no result of 6 and 1 or 2 is nothing)

2) The count instant death as resolved at strength 4, which I imagine means feel no pain is allowed as it's not double toughness.

This means against infantry the are slightly reduced in power, against vehicles they are substantially better.

R

[Frater Cornelius]

Ok so essentially d-scythes operate as follows.

They are destroyer weapon templates, with two modifiers.

1) they subtract 1 from rolls on the destroyer table (so no result of 6 and 1 or 2 is nothing)

2) The count instant death as resolved at strength 4, which I imagine means feel no pain is allowed as it's not double toughness.

This means against infantry the are slightly reduced in power, against vehicles they are substantially better.

R

 

At which point you might as well save 50pts and take the regular D shot instead. Eldar have enough anti-infantry, which is more reliable and has far better range. The D should always focus on high priority targets, simply because it is S10 and has the option of ignoring saves. You do not have the option with Scythes in addition to lower output against infantry, inferior output against armour and reduced range. Why bother?

[Xenith]

 

Ok so essentially d-scythes operate as follows.

They are destroyer weapon templates, with two modifiers.

1) they subtract 1 from rolls on the destroyer table (so no result of 6 and 1 or 2 is nothing)

2) The count instant death as resolved at strength 4, which I imagine means feel no pain is allowed as it's not double toughness.

This means against infantry the are slightly reduced in power, against vehicles they are substantially better.

R

 

At which point you might as well save 50pts and take the regular D shot instead. Eldar have enough anti-infantry, which is more reliable and has far better range. The D should always focus on high priority targets, simply because it is S10 and has the option of ignoring saves. You do not have the option with Scythes in addition to lower output against infantry, inferior output against armour and reduced range. Why bother?

 

 

Get out, erase a unit, 10 SD wall of death hits on anything foolish enough to try and charge them?

[Karhedron]

Yup, D-scythes will now wound any model under the template on a 3+, causing D3 wounds/HPs and negating normal saves.

 

D-cannons are only better against very tough units due to the chance of getting a 6 on the destroyer table. Against pretty much anything else, the points spent on D-scythes are well worth it.

[Golden Aegis]

Those flamers will pop basically any vehicle, it's not just good against infantry. Each 3+ is d3 hull points and counts as a pen hit.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

 

Ok so essentially d-scythes operate as follows.

They are destroyer weapon templates, with two modifiers.

1) they subtract 1 from rolls on the destroyer table (so no result of 6 and 1 or 2 is nothing)

2) The count instant death as resolved at strength 4, which I imagine means feel no pain is allowed as it's not double toughness.

This means against infantry the are slightly reduced in power, against vehicles they are substantially better.

R

 

At which point you might as well save 50pts and take the regular D shot instead. Eldar have enough anti-infantry, which is more reliable and has far better range. The D should always focus on high priority targets, simply because it is S10 and has the option of ignoring saves. You do not have the option with Scythes in addition to lower output against infantry, inferior output against armour and reduced range. Why bother?

 

 

Get out, erase a unit, 10 SD wall of death hits on anything foolish enough to try and charge them?

 

 

Scythes are S4 for the purpose of ID. SD is not supposed to shoot at regular units, at the end of the day. It does not matter how you lose your model, S10 or SD. Losing a Knight or Raider in one volley is painful and the regular guns do it better due to increased range and ignoring saves on a 6.

Maybe it is my old-fashioned view that SD is supposed to erase high-value targets, but I feel that Scatter Jetbikes are superior to Scythes in killing your general infantry units when it comes to cost efficiency.

[vahouth]

Farseer on a jetbike, 30 Scatterbikes, 3 WKs all fit in a 1750pts list. 

How do you guys plan to deal with it?

All the math I've done so far have shown that a VERY lucky Mephiston can drop a WK in a turn, with Force and Sanguine Sword.

Also a single WK requires about 30 grav shot to take him down, and that's  without even considering the possible cover save.

 

So, thoughts?

[shandwen]

Farseer on a jetbike, 30 Scatterbikes, 3 WKs all fit in a 1750pts list.

How do you guys plan to deal with it?

All the math I've done so far have shown that a VERY lucky Mephiston can drop a WK in a turn, with Force and Sanguine Sword.

Also a single WK requires about 30 grav shot to take him down, and that's without even considering the possible cover save.

 

So, thoughts?

30? That seems way high. My (quick math done in my head) says that 1 in 3 shots should mqke it past his saves, so about 18 grav shots to kill.

[vahouth]

30 shots hitting on 3+, which is 20 hits, wounding on +3 again is about 12-13 wounds.

The WK makes his FNP and saves an average of 5-6 wounds. So he's taken 6-7 wounds on average which is barelly what is needed to kill him. Imagine if he would also get a 5+ or 4+ cover save.

 

I think you're forgeting FNP.

[ronin_cse]

30 shots hitting on 3+, which is 20 hits, wounding on +3 again is about 12-13 wounds.

The WK makes his FNP and saves an average of 5-6 wounds. So he's taken 6-7 wounds on average which is barelly what is needed to kill him. Imagine if he would also get a 5+ or 4+ cover save.

 

I think you're forgeting FNP.

 

Your math is off a little. 30 shots should do 8.889 unsaved wounds after FnP. I think it's off on the FnP you estimated, 1/3 of 12 isn't 5-6

 

For what it's worth 20 shots does 5.926 wounds so that's the sweet spot for killing one on average. If he did get a 5+ save from cover or his shield then you would need 30 to do the same amount.

[Leonaides]

As i said on a different thread, i and just about everyone else will never face such a list. If your opppnents seriously have enough money to buy all that and you dont have the money to keep up then get a new job, nicer opponents or just ask them to tone it down because its no fun for you.

 

Kill the farseer, focus on one wk. Avoid tbe other two until you can deal withthem. Play your mission, not the enemy.

[Frater Cornelius]

That list would be pretty weak if you ask me. Loads of dakka, sure. But really weak to alpha strike. Jetbikes die like regular MEQ and a D WK will kill 2 MEQ a turn at most.

Alpha strike, force bikes to jink and remove as many as possible. From T3 onwards you can worry about WK.

I have played my SW/WS list against Jetbikes + WK + WG and basically sealed the game top of turn 3. Granted, it was a new book against an established list, but BA/WS will do just as well if not better due to even higher alpha strike potential.

I find the aformention Eldar lists easier to fight than the new Necrons, seeing as they are all but immune against alpha strike with their save stacking.