Kastelan Maniple Discussion

[Frater Cornelius]

Rules already leaked (apart from the army wide rule) and I must say... I am not sure they are worth it. Yeah, they simply feel too expensive for me. Allow me to excite you with a bit of math:

 

2 Kastelan Bots - Heavy Phosphor Blaster, Twin-linked Heavy Phosphor Blaster

1 Datasmith

= 320 points

 

They have 8 wounds in total and a majority Toughness of 7 and FnP (which is what you will have on most of the time).

They churn out 12 shots S6 AP3, 6 of which are twin-linked, with BS3 (and Luminagen).

In melee they get 4 S6 AP2 attacks and 2 S8 AP2 attacks with WS3.

 

Compare that to the IK Warden for 375 points.

 

6 Hull-Points AV13/12/12 Super Heavy

12 shots S6 AP3 BS4

3 SD AP2 attacks with WS4 and D3 Stomping Attacks

 

For 55 additional points you get better mobility, immunity to S6 or lower, high resistance against Grav, better melee capabilities are comparable shooting capabilities.

 

Compared the to IK, the bots feel a bit... clunky. They are definitely not as cost efficient as the Riptide or Dreadknight. I am not sure to be fair. What is your take on them?

[Zembar]

You forget the armor and invulnerable saves, the datasmith's ap2 pistol, and the hilarious reflector shield on the bots.

[marshall Egregorius]

indeed. The reflector shield is going to mitigate a lot of damage and throw it all back. 

[Frater Cornelius]

Armour saves help mitigate a lot of shots, but most of those shots are literally ignored by the IK. It does bring it closer together, that is right.

The Reflector is more of a gimmick in my eyes. Nothing too reliable but certainly hilarious.

 

Edit: Oh wait, the reflect activates for all saving throws, even Armour Saves. That makes it something to consider. Hm, okay now the gap is closing. Keep it coming.

[Hellrender]

A unit of bots cant get one shotted by d weapons as easily as a single Knight. Although.. Still not The hardest if you get enough hits.

[marshall Egregorius]

Armour saves help mitigate a lot of shots, but most of those shots are literally ignored by the IK. It does bring it closer together, that is right.

The Reflector is more of a gimmick in my eyes. Nothing too reliable but certainly hilarious.

 

Edit: Oh wait, the reflect activates for all saving throws, even Armour Saves. That makes it something to consider. Hm, okay now the gap is closing. Keep it coming.

 

I think it closes the gap close, if not completely than extremely close. The fact that it activates for all saves means that the unit will be a threat to you even if you shoot it yourself. i.e. your shots could end up killing your own men.

[Frater Cornelius]

But does it justify the decreased performance in other fields? I mean, I would not field an IK and a Maniple at the same time, seeing as they overlap.

[marshall Egregorius]

A unit of bots cant get one shotted by d weapons as easily as a single Knight. Although.. Still not The hardest if you get enough hits.

 

But could a D weapon shot get reflected? That would be epic and hilarious.

 

But does it justify the decreased performance in other fields? I mean, I would not field an IK and a Maniple at the same time, seeing as they overlap.

 

True, the fulfill closely related roles. the difference is if you want to play only mechanius stuff or ally in knights. Besides, if you are playing Cult Mechanicus and skitarii, you can't ally in a knight.

[Charlo]

Bots could take advantage of cover a lot easier for what it's worth. The negative cover save is handy for the rest of the army too. Pure weight of fire is really great on these guys too. while if you lose a bot you lose some shooting power, you lose the knight thats it. Although 1 bot != 1 knight ofc.

 

Perhaps they are a tad over costed, but then agains reflecting plasma will be fun.

[marshall Egregorius]

Bots could take advantage of cover a lot easier for what it's worth. The negative cover save is handy for the rest of the army too. Pure weight of fire is really great on these guys too. while if you lose a bot you lose some shooting power, you lose the knight thats it. Although 1 bot != 1 knight ofc.

 

Perhaps they are a tad over costed, but then agains reflecting plasma will be fun.

 

That, and Bots can't get immobilized or have a critical meltdown (penetrating hit) and blow up your side of the field.

[Castellan Cato]

We also don't have the Canticles 100% confirmed yet.  They might be sweet buffs.  I don't remeber wahtt eh rumors said they were.  Some once per game buff like Skittari.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

A unit of bots cant get one shotted by d weapons as easily as a single Knight. Although.. Still not The hardest if you get enough hits.

 

But could a D weapon shot get reflected? That would be epic and hilarious.

 

But does it justify the decreased performance in other fields? I mean, I would not field an IK and a Maniple at the same time, seeing as they overlap.

 

True, the fulfill closely related roles. the difference is if you want to play only mechanius stuff or ally in knights. Besides, if you are playing Cult Mechanicus and skitarii, you can't ally in a knight.

 

 

I can if they become LoW. But I see your point. If SH are banned, Maniple becomes the next best thing (to some degree).

 

As for survivability. One thing to consider is that you can shift bots around until every single model is left with 1 HP, which will definitely prolong their lives.

[marshall Egregorius]

 

 

A unit of bots cant get one shotted by d weapons as easily as a single Knight. Although.. Still not The hardest if you get enough hits.

 

But could a D weapon shot get reflected? That would be epic and hilarious.

 

But does it justify the decreased performance in other fields? I mean, I would not field an IK and a Maniple at the same time, seeing as they overlap.

 

True, the fulfill closely related roles. the difference is if you want to play only mechanius stuff or ally in knights. Besides, if you are playing Cult Mechanicus and skitarii, you can't ally in a knight.

 

 

I can if they become LoW. But I see your point. If SH are banned, Maniple becomes the next best thing (to some degree).

 

As for survivability. One thing to consider is that you can shift bots around until every single model is left with 1 HP, which will definitely prolong their lives.

 

 

Shift bots around?

[Vash]

Don't forget the size of these models :) Bots are easier to hide (if you so would want to hide them). 

[marshall Egregorius]

Don't forget the size of these models Bots are easier to hide (if you so would want to hide them).

This is also a good point, considering that a bot unit could be perched on top of a fortification pretty easy, or hidden in a ruin. With knights you need a 4 story building at least to hide behind.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

 

 

A unit of bots cant get one shotted by d weapons as easily as a single Knight. Although.. Still not The hardest if you get enough hits.

 

But could a D weapon shot get reflected? That would be epic and hilarious.

 

But does it justify the decreased performance in other fields? I mean, I would not field an IK and a Maniple at the same time, seeing as they overlap.

 

True, the fulfill closely related roles. the difference is if you want to play only mechanius stuff or ally in knights. Besides, if you are playing Cult Mechanicus and skitarii, you can't ally in a knight.

 

 

I can if they become LoW. But I see your point. If SH are banned, Maniple becomes the next best thing (to some degree).

 

As for survivability. One thing to consider is that you can shift bots around until every single model is left with 1 HP, which will definitely prolong their lives.

 

 

Shift bots around?

 

 

Change up the bot who is tanking the shots. If one bot is down to 1HP, move him to the back and have a full bot take the lead. Or, if no Blasts are present, have the Datasmith take the front with two bots in base contact and do Look Out Sir shenanigans. Things I learned from playing Thunderwolf Stars ;)

[marshall Egregorius]

A unit of bots cant get one shotted by d weapons as easily as a single Knight. Although.. Still not The hardest if you get enough hits.

But could a D weapon shot get reflected? That would be epic and hilarious.

But does it justify the decreased performance in other fields? I mean, I would not field an IK and a Maniple at the same time, seeing as they overlap.

True, the fulfill closely related roles. the difference is if you want to play only mechanius stuff or ally in knights. Besides, if you are playing Cult Mechanicus and skitarii, you can't ally in a knight.

I can if they become LoW. But I see your point. If SH are banned, Maniple becomes the next best thing (to some degree).

As for survivability. One thing to consider is that you can shift bots around until every single model is left with 1 HP, which will definitely prolong their lives.

Shift bots around?

Change up the bot who is tanking the shots. If one bot is down to 1HP, move him to the back and have a full bot take the lead. Or, if no Blasts are present, have the Datasmith take the front with two bots in base contact and do Look Out Sir shenanigans. Things I learned from playing Thunderwolf Stars

Easy concept, surprising I have not heard it mentioned before/thought of it. Seems like the only downside is blast template shenanigans. thanks!

[Frater Cornelius]

So, the question now is, when do you use a Warden and when do you use the Maniple. IK are LoW and will have an IK Detachment. Both seem to have their upsides, but both have a similar role. The IK is more offensive due to speed and melee while the Maniple is more defense with life prolonging shenanigans.

[marshall Egregorius]

So, the question now is, when do you use a Warden and when do you use the Maniple. IK are LoW and will have an IK Detachment. Both seem to have their upsides, but both have a similar role. The IK is more offensive due to speed and melee while the Maniple is more defense with life prolonging shenanigans.

 

The other option to consider is multiple maniples providing overlapping arcs of fire.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

So, the question now is, when do you use a Warden and when do you use the Maniple. IK are LoW and will have an IK Detachment. Both seem to have their upsides, but both have a similar role. The IK is more offensive due to speed and melee while the Maniple is more defense with life prolonging shenanigans.

 

The other option to consider is multiple maniples providing overlapping arcs of fire.

 

 

That would blow the bank. You have to consider that Cult Troops are pretty expensive by the looks of it and you still want to include and Skitter Maniple to get more boots on the ground. Still hard to grasp that a minimal sized Kastelan Maniple is just shy of an IK in cost.

[marshall Egregorius]

 

 

So, the question now is, when do you use a Warden and when do you use the Maniple. IK are LoW and will have an IK Detachment. Both seem to have their upsides, but both have a similar role. The IK is more offensive due to speed and melee while the Maniple is more defense with life prolonging shenanigans.

 

The other option to consider is multiple maniples providing overlapping arcs of fire.

 

 

That would blow the bank. You have to consider that Cult Troops are pretty expensive by the looks of it and you still want to include and Skitter Maniple to get more boots on the ground. Still hard to grasp that a minimal sized Kastelan Maniple is just shy of an IK in cost.

 

 

I was thinking more for 2000 point meta's or apocalypse.

[Vash]

So, the question now is, when do you use a Warden and when do you use the Maniple. IK are LoW and will have an IK Detachment. Both seem to have their upsides, but both have a similar role. The IK is more offensive due to speed and melee while the Maniple is more defense with life prolonging shenanigans.

Again depends on your army list really. What do you need, what do you lack. 

The phosphor blasters provide support to your other units with good AP weapons. Blasting away they cover saves. 

[Vel'Cona]

From what I recall, the Canticles included doubled attacks, doubled shots on the carapace weapons, or FnP.  This means you're getting 18 heavy phosphor shots (with 6 twin-linked) or 5 attacks each (on the charge, 6 with dual power fists).  As MCs, they also have Hammer of Wrath for an additional S6 attack on the charge.

 

I realize that IK are excellent units, no doubt, but 55 points is still a considerable difference IMO.  Now, if you try to take the Robots to a 4-6 strong unit (including the Datasmiths), they will skyrocket in price, so at that level I'd definitely argue IK against them.

 

Another thing to consider is that the Magos Dominus remains unspoiled; he may be bringing some buffs for his Robot minions that we just don't know about.

 

Finally, some formats don't allow Lords of War.  While this is somewhat corner-case, it does give the Robots a serious place in that type of gameplay environment.

[Frater Cornelius]

From what I recall, the Canticles included doubled attacks, doubled shots on the carapace weapons, or FnP.  This means you're getting 18 heavy phosphor shots (with 6 twin-linked) or 5 attacks each (on the charge, 6 with dual power fists).  As MCs, they also have Hammer of Wrath for an additional S6 attack on the charge.

 

I realize that IK are excellent units, no doubt, but 55 points is still a considerable difference IMO.  Now, if you try to take the Robots to a 4-6 strong unit (including the Datasmiths), they will skyrocket in price, so at that level I'd definitely argue IK against them.

 

Another thing to consider is that the Magos Dominus remains unspoiled; he may be bringing some buffs for his Robot minions that we just don't know about.

 

Finally, some formats don't allow Lords of War.  While this is somewhat corner-case, it does give the Robots a serious place in that type of gameplay environment.

 

No, the things you mentioned are the Protocols unique to the bots. No idea what the army rule does as of yet.

 

The Magos will not be able to join the unit seeing as IC can not join MC as per BRB, but he could have some external buff, that is true.

[marshall Egregorius]

 

From what I recall, the Canticles included doubled attacks, doubled shots on the carapace weapons, or FnP.  This means you're getting 18 heavy phosphor shots (with 6 twin-linked) or 5 attacks each (on the charge, 6 with dual power fists).  As MCs, they also have Hammer of Wrath for an additional S6 attack on the charge.

 

I realize that IK are excellent units, no doubt, but 55 points is still a considerable difference IMO.  Now, if you try to take the Robots to a 4-6 strong unit (including the Datasmiths), they will skyrocket in price, so at that level I'd definitely argue IK against them.

 

Another thing to consider is that the Magos Dominus remains unspoiled; he may be bringing some buffs for his Robot minions that we just don't know about.

 

Finally, some formats don't allow Lords of War.  While this is somewhat corner-case, it does give the Robots a serious place in that type of gameplay environment.

 

No, the things you mentioned are the Protocols unique to the bots. No idea what the army rule does as of yet.

 

The Magos will not be able to join the unit seeing as IC can not join MC as per BRB, but he could have some external buff, that is true.

 

 

I think Vel'cona was referencing an aoe buff.