Kastelan Maniple Discussion

[mmimzie]

My feelings were exactly described with this post, but there's new information:

 

No matter how i twist and turn it, it still seems the elimination maniple formation is by a long shot the most powerful cult has to offer. Many targets will often be in some kind of cover and BS4 instead of 3 is really good, shooting at MEQ behind just 5+ cover a kastellan from an elimination formation will get around double the kills compared to the same kastellan outside the formation. 

 

Outside of a full cult army this formation just seems by far the best to ally in.

 

However, I was reading on Warseer (from an above link) and it suggested the BS +1 and Ignore Cover only applies on a unit ALREADY hit by a Robot Luminagen.  In other words, you have to 1st Wound 1 Unit, and then the rest of Formation gets bonuses for THAT unit.  This finding changes the dynamic somewhat, and we're still working from rumours here, but if that was the condition, what's your thoughts on the subject now?

elimination maniples is okay. The guy says robots so maybe.... those robots count count as kataphron, but most likely its the kastelan. That sucks because the kastelans do all the killing on thier own. So the +1bs and -cover saves just means "you get to finish off this mostyl destimated unit for sure"

 

But cohort cybernetica is AMAZING! It's a shooting death star made of dears, hopes, and whispers. According the rumors that's 4 robots 2 data smiths and a tech priest domi. Every model gets IWND, and the tech priest give one of the unit members a wound back  every turn (or every 5 in 6 turns).  Every one has FNP, a 2+ save on the data smiths and tech priest, 3+ on the big robos, 5++ invuln save, and the robos have repulsor armour. mmmmm and they have nice shooting, and they have ap 2 attacks and can double the number of attacks they do. It's the best thing in the world, and is the apple of all my dreams.

 

edit: i also suspect one of the special issue wargears available might be omnispecs becuase i believe we only got relics

[Charlo]

It would seem I need to buy two boxes of robots and a Dominus... Holy crap.

[Frater Cornelius]

Hold your horses until you see images. That Warseer dude is a spaniard, so translation errors are not out of the question.

[Scurvydog]

My feelings were exactly described with this post, but there's new information:

 

 

No matter how i twist and turn it, it still seems the elimination maniple formation is by a long shot the most powerful cult has to offer. Many targets will often be in some kind of cover and BS4 instead of 3 is really good, shooting at MEQ behind just 5+ cover a kastellan from an elimination formation will get around double the kills compared to the same kastellan outside the formation.

 

Outside of a full cult army this formation just seems by far the best to ally in.

However, I was reading on Warseer (from an above link) and it suggested the BS +1 and Ignore Cover only applies on a unit ALREADY hit by a Robot Luminagen. In other words, you have to 1st Wound 1 Unit, and then the rest of Formation gets bonuses for THAT unit. This finding changes the dynamic somewhat, and we're still working from rumours here, but if that was the condition, what's your thoughts on the subject now?

My excitement was based on the potential for dealing efficiently with those pesky objective grabbing units in cover and often going to ground, but now, if only using a min size formation, the kastellans will not even benefit from it. From OP to very situational I belive.

 

As several posters have pointed out, the kastellan cohort with a dominus seems the better choice, and will most likely form the core of my first cult army list, with skitter backup. This formation allows you to field the incredible dominus and makes the bots possibly the most versatile and surviveable unit in the game.

 

It will be a deathstar, but the split fire, instant protocols, canticles and relics with IWND, gives this unit much more board presence, and has a chance to survive the attention it will recieve.

 

Still I only preordered a codex and dominus to my local GW, I will decide what to buy when I get the book in my own hands

[Vel'Cona]

Agreed, I want to read the formations for my self in English.  There's some nuance there and I honestly wish they'd just added Ignores Cover to the Luminagen rule for the Elimination Maniple, as it's easy to misinterpret the intent of the rule that we've seen.  Though if the +1 BS was static, I find it hard to imagine why anyone would use Kataphrons in anything but that detachment, so I can see why they added conditions to it.

[Marshal Ommadon]

I have my one box of Kastelans all put together except for the arms and the shoulder mounted weapon.  For the life of me I can not decide on how to make them; all shooting (full Heavy Phosphor Blaster load-out); or keep them vanilla?

 

Since they are base 290 I have been leaning towards the power fists version, but I am kind-of intrigued by their shooting capabilities. 

 

Anyone have any suggestions?

[mmimzie]

I have my one box of Kastelans all put together except for the arms and the shoulder mounted weapon.  For the life of me I can not decide on how to make them; all shooting (full Heavy Phosphor Blaster load-out); or keep them vanilla?

 

Since they are base 290 I have been leaning towards the power fists version, but I am kind-of intrigued by their shooting capabilities. 

 

Anyone have any suggestions?

If they are the fist sort they wont beable to get into combat for a few turns unless something actively moves toward them. So your 290 points wont see any value for about half the game. 

 

Also fist only give you +1 attack and i guess what 3 or 4 more str. This is kind of token as they are monsterous creatures and already have ap 2 and the ability to give up all attacks for str 10 and ap 1

[Vash]

Been thinking of only upgrading the carapace weapon on one of the Kastelans, to go semi shooty. Its not the amount of attacks thats important, but the ability to wreck havoc on high toughness and vehicles. 

[mmimzie]

don't forget the unit has a data priest with power fist. So he's throwing out S8 AP2 punches, and the data priest has a data spike which gives he a third attack (4th on the charge) so he'll break just about anything(edit this last point is directed towards vehicles ^.^ #haywire)

[Scurvydog]

I wont do powerfists on any of them. A twin linked phospher is bound to spread more murder during the game, and the unit is still a threat in close combat.

 

Will start out with a cohort star of 4 bots, 2 smiths and a dom. Might give 1 bot a flamer to counter hordes though, dakka on all else

[Yodhrin]

Been thinking of only upgrading the carapace weapon on one of the Kastelans, to go semi shooty. Its not the amount of attacks thats important, but the ability to wreck havoc on high toughness and vehicles. 

 

Which they can still do with the Datasmith's powerfist and their Smash attacks. All-Phosphor is simply better in almost every situation, and for me it's not worth losing all that firepower to get an extra attack or two at S10 on the rare occasion I'd need them to fight an opposing group of multiwound MCs in assault.

[ronin_cse]

So I listened to Front Line Gaming's podcast today and they were discussing these guys a little. They seemed to think that the absolute best option for Kastelans was taking power fists and didn't bother explaining their reasoning. Am I missing something here? They weren't just talking about cool factor either they were talking about for actual tournament play. Personally I see very little reason to give them PFs over Phosphors especially since the Datasmith already has one.

[mmimzie]

So I listened to Front Line Gaming's podcast today and they were discussing these guys a little. They seemed to think that the absolute best option for Kastelans was taking power fists and didn't bother explaining their reasoning. Am I missing something here? They weren't just talking about cool factor either they were talking about for actual tournament play. Personally I see very little reason to give them PFs over Phosphors especially since the Datasmith already has one.

The frontline gaming folks are alittle afraid of talking to much about "rumors" because they sell GW product and dont want to get in trouble. (my guess here). So they try just to glance info and say stuff, but not to much to make it look like they are the ones leaking stuff. hint why they say "supposedly" about 50 times.

 

They have no need of a powerfist as you said the data priest already ahs one, and if you want to flip a tank the data priest will just whisper into it's ear and tell the tank to stop sinning. If you wanan kill an MC they hit hard enough to rekt one. If now smash attacks.... I dont know i dont think they really look at the stuff too hard.

[Nehekhare]

not taking the powerfists effective halfes either your strength or your attacks (either S6 A2 or S10 A1 with smash vs. S10 A3 with fists) and may leave you in a situation where you spend the rest of the game in melee against a tarpit or get wittled down by a deathstar unit. Each to hit roll of <4 does exactly nothing - so would you rather have 2 or 6 dice to throw?

I'd take the dakka version in elimination maniples only, mix both types in a cybernetica cohort (propaply 3 fist/1dakka) and take only fists elsewhere.

[Frater Cornelius]

Let me play the devil's advocate and say that while the Cohort is pretty damn strong as far as Death Stars go, but is is countered by other popular builds.

Grav Centurions with 2+ tank (scouting CM with Cents or Draigo Star), Grav Command Squad with CM, Ravenwing Wolf Star, any reliable AP2 alpha strike and invisible tarpits. All of those are quite popular and the Cohort does not bring enough AP2 to counter the tanks, is too slow to dictate the rules of engagement and has no means of breaking tarpits reliably or escaping them.

They are still strong but many of the popular builds counter them directly. Lets see if the new SM change that.

[Yodhrin]

not taking the powerfists effective halfes either your strength or your attacks (either S6 A2 or S10 A1 with smash vs. S10 A3 with fists) and may leave you in a situation where you spend the rest of the game in melee against a tarpit or get wittled down by a deathstar unit. Each to hit roll of <4 does exactly nothing - so would you rather have 2 or 6 dice to throw?

I'd take the dakka version in elimination maniples only, mix both types in a cybernetica cohort (propaply 3 fist/1dakka) and take only fists elsewhere.

 

It's not two though, it's a minimum of four(one Smash from each 'bot plus two PF attacks from the Datasmith). Plus you can use a Canticle to boost the unit in CC if it's really necessary. So in order to make a slow unit slightly more effective in a handful of specific CC encounters(because S6 AP2 will deal with almost everything in the game), you're giving up 3 TL S6 AP3 shots per turn per robot - unless your local meta is almost nothing except for 2+ save deathstars and Nidzilla-style MC-spam, the opportunity cost of the fists is just too high.

[ronin_cse]

 

So I listened to Front Line Gaming's podcast today and they were discussing these guys a little. They seemed to think that the absolute best option for Kastelans was taking power fists and didn't bother explaining their reasoning. Am I missing something here? They weren't just talking about cool factor either they were talking about for actual tournament play. Personally I see very little reason to give them PFs over Phosphors especially since the Datasmith already has one.

The frontline gaming folks are alittle afraid of talking to much about "rumors" because they sell GW product and dont want to get in trouble. (my guess here). So they try just to glance info and say stuff, but not to much to make it look like they are the ones leaking stuff. hint why they say "supposedly" about 50 times.

 

They have no need of a powerfist as you said the data priest already ahs one, and if you want to flip a tank the data priest will just whisper into it's ear and tell the tank to stop sinning. If you wanan kill an MC they hit hard enough to rekt one. If now smash attacks.... I dont know i dont think they really look at the stuff too hard.

 

 

Yeah that's probably why. Although are they really still rumors when we have their rules in the WD and from their building guide?

 

not taking the powerfists effective halfes either your strength or your attacks (either S6 A2 or S10 A1 with smash vs. S10 A3 with fists) and may leave you in a situation where you spend the rest of the game in melee against a tarpit or get wittled down by a deathstar unit. Each to hit roll of <4 does exactly nothing - so would you rather have 2 or 6 dice to throw?

I'd take the dakka version in elimination maniples only, mix both types in a cybernetica cohort (propaply 3 fist/1dakka) and take only fists elsewhere.

 

Well S6 is hardly weak. They will be wounding most things that can tar pit them on a 2+ anyways and they will still be ap 2. You can still use the protocol (or whatever it's called) to double their attacks, and you can use a canticle to increase their str for at least one turn. Against most vehicles they will still do well in CC even without the PFs.

 

I only see the PFs being useful if you manage to get into CC with a high AV vehicle or multiple multi-wound T5 models without EW. So basically they are a counter to things like wolfstars or bike squads. The issue there is those units are so fast you most likely won't get into CC with them in the first place. S6 AP3 shooting on the other hand is very useful in almost every game.

 

Although I guess you are only sacrificing 3 shots when you take a PF so in an MSU going 1 of each probably wouldn't make THAT big of a difference.

[mmimzie]

 

 

Well S6 is hardly weak. They will be wounding most things that can tar pit them on a 2+ anyways and they will still be ap 2. You can still use the protocol (or whatever it's called) to double their attacks, and you can use a canticle to increase their str for at least one turn. Against most vehicles they will still do well in CC even without the PFs.

 

I only see the PFs being useful if you manage to get into CC with a high AV vehicle or multiple multi-wound T5 models without EW. So basically they are a counter to things like wolfstars or bike squads. The issue there is those units are so fast you most likely won't get into CC with them in the first place. S6 AP3 shooting on the other hand is very useful in almost every game.

 

Although I guess you are only sacrificing 3 shots when you take a PF so in an MSU going 1 of each probably wouldn't make THAT big of a difference.

 

3 twin linked shots btw thats like 4.5 shots :P

[mmimzie]

Oh many i ahd this crazy though guys!!!.... Cognis flamers... cognis flamers.

 

 The kastelan unit has 3 champs who can all take relics. (if your taking 2 maniples with twin-ling phoser). 

 

One champ will obviously have IWND for the unit.

 

One could have the skull relic to be safe in the unit most of the game and mark vehicles for exploding.

 

The last dude could have the cognis for unit!!!

 

I read it and i believe it says it turns flamers into cognis flamers. That means you'll do 3 auto hits!!! Then if you set them up to double fire each model with do 6 auto str 4 ap 5 hits. With 4 models thats a whoping 24 auto hits. Then the twin linked phoser blasted snap shot at a 5+..... anything none giant charging you is gonna get toasted and roasted!!!!!

 

You definitly loose out on the carapace double attack and the abil;ity to usei t at 36" but with the flamers and cognis this unit is even safer from so many things. it's definitly a catch 22, but man it's a crazy idea.

 

Thoughts?

[Marshal Ommadon]

The Cybernetica Datasmiths CANNOT take either the Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land (It Will Not Die relic) or The Scryerskull Perspicatus (marking Vehicles relic).  Sorry!

 

I chose the Raiment of The Technomartyr which gives him a 2+ Armour Save (he had anyway) and all the weapons in his unit have the Cognis ability.  Not a bad CC deterrent or AA when you give the Robots all Phosphor weapons.

[mmimzie]

The Cybernetica Datasmiths CANNOT take either the Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land (It Will Not Die relic) or The Scryerskull Perspicatus (marking Vehicles relic).  Sorry!

 

I chose the Raiment of The Technomartyr which gives him a 2+ Armour Save (he had anyway) and all the weapons in his unit have the Cognis ability.  Not a bad CC deterrent or AA when you give the Robots all Phosphor weapons.

why can't it take those? Are you saying the data smith can't take them or it says in the rules they can't take it??? If it says the data smith can't than the tech priest could.

 

edit: yeah i reread you post and reread some of the German add in. Well then the tech priest just takes IWND, and give more reason to the formation. So only cybernetica formation can get IWND kastelans . That's good mean the formation matters. Sucks you can't also hide the scryerskull in the unit because that item does some neat stuff. Free pointi f you draw a card that wants you to discover mysterious objectives, and let's you label mysterious objectives.

 

 

ANy way no i'm saying the flamer is great. sure 5+ to hit with your phophor chest weapon is okay. You'll get 1 hit per model..... but with the flamer: that's 12 AUTO HITS str4 ap5 if you turn double shooting on. That's some good counter charge measure. 

[Scurvydog]

Not that impressive from the flamers as cognis compared to phosphor, if you got the double shooting running you will have 6 str6 ap3 shots with bs5 per bot per back mounted phosphor, that is an average of 2 hits.

 

Against a fair many units I would say 2 str6 ap3 hits are better than 3 str4 ap5 hits.

[Marshal Ommadon]

If you are not taking the Cohort Cybernetica Formation, I have found that giving your Datasmith the relic that's gives all his squad's ranged weapons the Cognis special rule can be quite potent.  Especially on all Phosphor Kastelans!  In a pinch they can proved mediocre AA too!

[Templar1]

 

My feelings were exactly described with this post, but there's new information:

 

No matter how i twist and turn it, it still seems the elimination maniple formation is by a long shot the most powerful cult has to offer. Many targets will often be in some kind of cover and BS4 instead of 3 is really good, shooting at MEQ behind just 5+ cover a kastellan from an elimination formation will get around double the kills compared to the same kastellan outside the formation. 

 

Outside of a full cult army this formation just seems by far the best to ally in.

 

However, I was reading on Warseer (from an above link) and it suggested the BS +1 and Ignore Cover only applies on a unit ALREADY hit by a Robot Luminagen.  In other words, you have to 1st Wound 1 Unit, and then the rest of Formation gets bonuses for THAT unit.  This finding changes the dynamic somewhat, and we're still working from rumours here, but if that was the condition, what's your thoughts on the subject now?

elimination maniples is okay. The guy says robots so maybe.... those robots count count as kataphron, but most likely its the kastelan. That sucks because the kastelans do all the killing on thier own. So the +1bs and -cover saves just means "you get to finish off this mostyl destimated unit for sure"

 

But cohort cybernetica is AMAZING! It's a shooting death star made of dears, hopes, and whispers. According the rumors that's 4 robots 2 data smiths and a tech priest domi. Every model gets IWND, and the tech priest give one of the unit members a wound back  every turn (or every 5 in 6 turns).  Every one has FNP, a 2+ save on the data smiths and tech priest, 3+ on the big robos, 5++ invuln save, and the robos have repulsor armour. mmmmm and they have nice shooting, and they have ap 2 attacks and can double the number of attacks they do. It's the best thing in the world, and is the apple of all my dreams.

 

edit: i also suspect one of the special issue wargears available might be omnispecs becuase i believe we only got relics

 

 

The cohort Cybernetica is the Deathstariest Deathstar to have Deathstarred. 

 

But in all seriousness, here's some potential that I explored when I just read the codex last night:

There are two relics at thirty pts each: one gives the techpriest and his unit's weapons the Cognis rule, The other relic gives It Will Not Die to the techpriest and his unit.... great against fliers, and good freakin' luck assaulting the cohort. so that's expensive, but...work with me here...

 

So while that's 2 minimum stength units and a techpriest dominus for the cohort formation. Now let's give the dominus the two relics above. Now, let's give two robots twin phosphor blasters, and shoulder phosphor blasters. Now you've got great S6 shots that reduce cver saves, that will snap fire (and hit fliers) on a 5+. The two flamers in the squad also get cognis, so if they're assaulted, that's 6 automatic flamer hits. So...assaulting the unit hurts. Not to mention the datasmith pistols or the dominus' formidable weaponry, right?

Now the robots are T7, 3W. They have FNP as per what will probably be the most used protocol, which, given the formation, they can change at the beginning of the turn rather than it taking into effectnext turn. Now they're shooty as heck with all that S6 firepower, pistols, and dominus weapons, with cognis. Now, the unit also gets it Will Not Die from the other relic on the dominus. Keep in mind: the refractor grids on the robots that might bounce shots back. Also: they have smash, and two have twin power fists, so they're awesome in close combat, too.

 

...if you read through all my theoryhammering above (of which I would be impressed if you did), that is....one heck of a unit. How the heck does an enemy break that brick?! Especially when you start adding some allies, like inquisitors, chaplains, librarians, etc.

[Frater Cornelius]

Simple, you can not join anyone else to the unit, because those are Monstrous Creatures. And they fold pretty quickly under sistained fire, especially Grav or Poison. They also lack AP2 at range. And finally, they are let down by instant protocols. I prefer the way protocols work for regular bots.

They may be strong against regular armies, but another death star will give them big trouble.