Kastelan Maniple Discussion

[mmimzie]

Simple, you can not join anyone else to the unit, because those are Monstrous Creatures. And they fold pretty quickly under sistained fire, especially Grav or Poison. They also lack AP2 at range. And finally, they are let down by instant protocols. I prefer the way protocols work for regular bots.

They may be strong against regular armies, but another death star will give them big trouble.

eh instant and delayed protocols dependso n who your are fighting.

 

If your going against wolf star instant is better. You go into shooting mode right away, chill in nice heavy cover. you shoot, and oyu shoot, and you shoot. Blow up most of the dog unit. The dog units about to charge you go back to FNP instantly. The dogs end up so limp once they are in combat from just so much cohort shooting. It's good for turning back FNP when you need it and thus against armiers where your not as afraid of getting shot at.

 

Delayed rocks against armies who do shoot you up. You get to convert to shooting with out your enemy suddenly deciding to alpha strike you before you get into super shooter mode.

 

Aside from that though. The protocol are even needed. They can hang out all day in FNP mode and still deliever enough damage to make themselves well worth it. 

 

So i mean i don't know. Deathstars are that frightening. invisible is good agianst them once you geti nto combat, but cognis take a lot of the edge off the issue.

 

@Templar1 yeah that's definitly the conclusion we've all come to these last few days for sure.

[Scurvydog]

Well they don't fold faster than anything else in the dex though, general cult problem. The formation can be overwhelmed by units for lesser points by a savvy opponent and the units is as good as dead if you opponent charges them with anything with str D (imp knight, thirster, wraithknight).

 

The reason I managed to win some games with the formation mainly came down to playing vs marines and going all out dakka bots, using shooting protocols, my opponents whined a little, but I doubt I would have won my fight against 2 units of thunderwolves without having first turn.

 

I will use the formation sparingly, as soon as you begin playing opponents who prepare just a little to face the bots (and get a sense of this new army) they will begin falling hard and fast. You can find a great many things for the same point value to counter them.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, SM are likely to get Grav Devastators with Grav Amps. If their Cannons work the same way as Cents, you can bet your implants that people will stick them in pods. 12 shots Grav with re-rolls on arrival, 20 shots when standing still. Unless there are some limitation, you may need to adjust your tactics to survive that.

[ronin_cse]

Well, SM are likely to get Grav Devastators with Grav Amps. If their Cannons work the same way as Cents, you can bet your implants that people will stick them in pods. 12 shots Grav with re-rolls on arrival, 20 shots when standing still. Unless there are some limitation, you may need to adjust your tactics to survive that.

Obviously the counter to that is to take more Electro Priests!!!

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, SM are likely to get Grav Devastators with Grav Amps. If their Cannons work the same way as Cents, you can bet your implants that people will stick them in pods. 12 shots Grav with re-rolls on arrival, 20 shots when standing still. Unless there are some limitation, you may need to adjust your tactics to survive that.

Obviously the counter to that is to take more Electro Priests!!!

Everything makes sense now :D

[Scurvydog]

A turn 1 alpha strike is most dangerous if you go second. With first turn cult can manage drop pod alphas by using cover and using shroud canticle to ride of the onslaught. Especially with night fighting those T1 pods are far less intimidating.

 

Screening priests vs grav alphas is the new meta, it is known.

[Marshal Ommadon]

I was much too aggressive with my Robots in my first game (thought T7 would be enough).  I think what I want to do next time is park them in some Ruins near the center of the table and funnel my enemy there.  Their Repulsor Grid rules says that if the pass a saving throw of ANY KIND of a 6 (except in CC) the shot reflects back.  Unless my English is off that would include Cover Saves too!

 

The 5++ is nice but I'll be damned if I make 3 of those a game!  Now a 4+ cover save that I can use Canticles or Night Fighting to improve works better for my lousy dice rolling!

[Terminus]

The way I would field them if I were so inclined is as such:

2 Kastelan Robots with heavy phosphor blasters, tl-heaphy phosphor blasters

1 Datasmith with Conversion Shield, Mask of the Alpha Dominus

 

Now this is 340 points, which is quite a bit, but has some interesting tricks. If you stick them in cover, they are pretty survivable, especially if you stack Shroundpsalm canticle for +3 to cover saves and Aegis protocol for FNP.  First tun they will have FNP, which will remain through the enemy's turn, then they can switch to double shots. 18 S6 AP3 shots with luminagen from the unit is pretty good. They are only BS3, but 6 of those shots are always twin-linked, and the remaining can get various degrees of re-roll from Benediction of Omniscience on a key turn (or two key turns if you are running the Congregation detachment).

 

Woe betide any unit that tries to charge these guys. They will eat the 18 phosphor +1 gamma pistol overwatch shots, and then the Datasmith can burn the Mask to immediately switch on double attacks, letting them retaliate with 8 S6 AP2 attacks and 2 S8 AP2 attacks (plus spike). They will lose double shots for the rest of the game, but they can switch to FNP for the rest of the game. Also, this part is certainly debatable, but from my reading of the rules, it seems like on you can queue up a protocol, use the mask to activate another, and still have the queued protocol take effect next turn. So say it's turn 3 or 4, you've been happily double-firing, but you are pretty positive he will assault you on his turn. At the end of your turn, declare that your next protocol is Aegis. Opponent charges and gets double-fire overwatch, you use mask to immediately activate double melee attack. Then on your turn, the queued up FNP protocol activates, so you're good to shoot again if you managed to resolve the close combat.

 

Yes, 75 extra points buys you a Knight Warden with a Skyspear missile launcher, but overall I'd say the Robots are much better than my initial reaction had them pegged. I'd probably invest in a unit if they didn't look so derpy and I didn't already have a bunch of Castellax. Speaking of which, 340 points also buys you 4 bare-bones Castellax, so that's worth a comparison.

 

At range, the 4 Castellax get 12 S6 AP3 shots at BS4 with pinning, which is roughly equivalent to the volume of fire from an unaugmented Kastelan unit of 2 (the gamma pistol is too short-ranged to consider in this case). The Kastelans definitely win this comparison once you include the various faction buffs (which may I say, are way better implemented than the stupid Cybertheurgy).

 

In melee, the Castellax also have the same two S6 AP2 attacks each, with the added benefit of I3 (vs. I2 on kastelans), concussive and Rage. Having twice as many robots really helps here, letting you match the Kastelan's canticle-doubled melee attack volume all the time and DOUBLING it again to 16(!) swings if you manage to get the charge (and don't forget hammer of wrath attacks, which also get concussive). They also get a 6+ invulnerable save in melee. Oh, and they potentially explode if you kill them. I'll give this comparison to the Castellax.

 

In toughness, the Kastelans being a long-range unit vs. an assault-one like Castellax lets them benefit from cover more (and get shroudpsalm for a turn), and they can get FNP. This does little to counteract the Castellax having twice as many robots AND an extra wound on each, for a total of 16 T7 wounds vs 6 T7 wounds plus the 2 from the datapriest. They also force re-rolls on successful Poison/Fleshbane attacks. It's simply no contest.

 

Of course, some may rightfully argue that Castellax also should purchase double flamers and there's the matter of the cortex controller*, so a more accurate comparison would perhaps be 3 Castellax vs 2 Kastelans, which illustrates the differences between the units a bit better. The Kastelans are the clear bunker choice, putting out 33% or 100% more S6 AP3 shots down-range, and being able to dish 10 melee attacks out from the unit at will without having to charge. The Castellax are the clear bunker busters, with fewer high quality shots at shorter range, but with 6(!) flamers and rage/concussive to make things interesting when things get close and personal. The 12 wounds and poison resistance is of course still better than 6 with cover/FNP shenanigans.

 

*People overfret about the cortex controller, it's really not that limiting and is actually quite beneficial in that you get to fire THREE weapons while off the reservation.  The automatic targetting only kicks in at 12" and does not limit your movement, so you can either move out of the 12" or re-adjust so your preferred target is the closest one.  The only way to bait them into attacking a specific unit is to park it within 6" of them and put everything else over 12" away.  Then you can take consolation in that you denied your opponent a large chunk of table-space and that whatever he baited you with is going to DIE.

 

And hey, just for fun, while we're talking about 30K, 365 points buys you 5 Myrmidon Destructors with Photon Thruster Cannons. 10 48" BS5 S6 AP2 shots with Lance, Blind and Preferred Enemy. Good times. :D

[Marshal Ommadon]

What about giving the Datasmith a Stasis Field and the Cognis relic?  That would give the Datasmith the ability to Go To Ground with a 2++ so he can tank the incoming shots, while the Robots can than Snap at BS2.

[Frater Cornelius]

What about giving the Datasmith a Stasis Field and the Cognis relic?  That would give the Datasmith the ability to Go To Ground with a 2++ so he can tank the incoming shots, while the Robots can than Snap at BS2.

 

Monstrous Creatures can not go to ground.

[Scurvydog]

 

What about giving the Datasmith a Stasis Field and the Cognis relic?  That would give the Datasmith the ability to Go To Ground with a 2++ so he can tank the incoming shots, while the Robots can than Snap at BS2.

 

Monstrous Creatures can not go to ground.

 

 

I guess the smith can't go to ground alone when the rest of the unit is unable to, but I am not 100% sure. 

[Frater Cornelius]

The whole unit needs to go to ground. If the unit contains at least one model that prevents you from doing so, the unit can not go to ground.

[Terminus]

 

Simple, you can not join anyone else to the unit, because those are Monstrous Creatures. And they fold pretty quickly under sistained fire, especially Grav or Poison. They also lack AP2 at range. And finally, they are let down by instant protocols. I prefer the way protocols work for regular bots.

They may be strong against regular armies, but another death star will give them big trouble.

eh instant and delayed protocols dependso n who your are fighting.

 

If your going against wolf star instant is better. You go into shooting mode right away, chill in nice heavy cover. you shoot, and oyu shoot, and you shoot. Blow up most of the dog unit. The dog units about to charge you go back to FNP instantly. The dogs end up so limp once they are in combat from just so much cohort shooting. It's good for turning back FNP when you need it and thus against armiers where your not as afraid of getting shot at.

 

You and Templar1 are misunderstanding the rule. The protocol is still chosen at the END of your turn. So it works a bit against you when you switch from Aegis. For example, you most likely are going for double shots after the first turn. Normally, the protocol wouldn't activate until your next turn, so you would still have FNP during your opponent's turn, but now it activates immediately, so you lose a turn of FNP.

 

It is, however, beneficial when you already in one of the attack modes and want to fall back to Aegis. Say you've been double shooting stuff all day, and you expect something to shoot/charge you next turn. You declare your next protocol to be Aegis, and take your double shots. Now on your opponent's turn, you have FNP. For extra giggles, add the Mask of Alpha Dominus, and immediately after your opponent finishes his melee attacks and you're done with your FNP rolls (assuming you aren't attacking before he is), use the mask to immediately switch to face-punching mode for your attacks. There are some people trying to argue that you get both canticles during your opponent's turn due to this rule, but I disagree with that interpretation.

[mmimzie]

Eh gonna go with RAW for cohort cybernetica. I Thiers Mo logical argument against double protocols.

 

As for the regular delayed protocols I don't see much down side too it out aide of truing to switch back to fnp. You also can't swap to double shooting right before you get charged.

[Terminus]

Eh gonna go with RAW for cohort cybernetica. I Thiers Mo logical argument against double protocols.

 

As for the regular delayed protocols I don't see much down side too it out aide of truing to switch back to fnp. You also can't swap to double shooting right before you get charged.

I don't know if you would want to switch to double shooting before getting charged anyway. I'll take 12 snapshots and 6 AP2 melee attacks and FNP over 18 snapshots and no melee attacks or FNP any day.

[Frater Cornelius]

They can still melee. They just can not move.

 

Hm... They can not move under any circumstance, it says. RAW this would mean they can not pile in, they can not consolidate or make a fall back move.

[Mushkilla]

Hm... They can not move under any circumstance, it says. RAW this would mean they can not pile in, they can not consolidate or make a fall back move.

Pretty handy it means people can't use melee units to pull you off objectives.

 

Not sure if it interacts favourably with tank shock though...

 

Interestingly it looks like the data smith can still move freely.

[Vel'Cona]

I'm still feeling like blending a 'Bot or two into the Maniple with the Power Fists is a good idea, if only to put some fear into IKs and WKs.  With doubled attacks, you're looking at 10 S10 AP1 attacks (under protocol) if you just swap 2 out of your 4 Robots (assuming you're running a reasonably sized Maniple, that is).  You'll only be losing 6 shots (albeit Twin-Linked) total, and still get the doubled shots under protocol for the carapace-mounted weapon.  Maybe I'm undervaluing the extra shots, but it seems like you should still have plenty of Heavy Phosphor firepower to wipe out MEQ and light vehicles with ease.

[pompeyladbfp]

yup i agree vel'cona in a 4 strong unit id have 2 powerfist chaps, especially with all those wolfs about these days

[Scurvydog]

I would only consider using powerfists in larger games. The unit is such a large point investment and cult is such a shooty army, you need those shots to kill enough enemy units, especially if it is a more assault or horde based opponent. 

 

The dominus and datasmiths also bring decent melee power and 2 str 6 AP 2 attacks per bot is ok. You don't really want to melee though, these bots need to shoot down threats, they are a MASSIVE investment and need to be maximized, using their split fire to pump out a lot of dakka.

 

My last games they did not get into melee before turn 3+ where they got assaulted. The unit had the cognis relic, which means 2x twin linked phosphors gave me: 3 rounds x 6 twin linked shots at BS3 which is equal to roughly 11 MEQ wounds. they also got to overwatch the turn they got assaulted with cognis which also gave: 2,5 MEQ wounds. 

 

I feel you need to get into a real pickle of a close combat fight with them to make all that dakka worth sacrificing for those powerfist attacks, especially when the smiths already provide 2 powerfist attacks each at str 8. if you really need a few str 10 hits, then smash with 2 bots. Don't forget +str/reroll to hit in melee canticles either if you know assaults will happen, this could bring smiths and bots at the minimum to str 9 fists and str 7 dakka bots.

 

Unless I expected to face mostly assault dreadnaughts or massive amounts of MC's , the Kastellans will probably wipe out at least a unit more being equipped for dakka. 

 

 

BTW does anyone know why the datasmith model has 2 pistols? The rules only mention 1 gammepistol.

[mmimzie]

You know i was thinking about the powerfist thing, but a bit differently. I dont think a power fist on the kastelans is worth it but...

 

Just take more data smiths if you want more fist. They'll hide in the unit all game behind the beefy nearly uninstant killable kastelans. Then in combat. with the robots up from to take all the wounds the data smiths can swing from the back with thier power fist.  2 data smiths is cheaper than 1 kastelan. Both have KNP, and both have invuln saves. The data smiths could each take a conversion field to get an even better invuln save if you wanted. I think if you want melee kill power. the data smiths are where it is at.

 

edit: though iguess they wouldn't instant gip a wolf, but i wouldn't take fist on a kastelan to do that.

[Vel'Cona]

I guess I don't value 6 shots as highly as other folks.  Since the total unit (under fire twice protocol) will throw 30 shots anyway (4 carapace phosphors, 2 TL phosphors), I feel like the extra shots are neither worth the points nor the loss of melee capability.  If you think about it, out of those 30 you should get roughly 16-17 hits, which is about 14 wounds on your average MEQ unit.  I'm pretty sure that will take out 90% of the SM squads out there.  That said, I suppose if you're going for an MC or GC you'll want all the shots you can get.  I do get that we can trade for a S10 Smash attack, and that the Datasmiths are of course quite punchy, I'm just not convinced that will be enough to turn a combat without a little more help from the Robots.

[PraetorDragoon]

A point for the powerfists is that the hand mounted phosphor guns look absolutely ridicilous :P

 

I think it would be a smart move to have at least 1 bot or so with Power Fists. Unit still remains pretty shooty but is also more dangerous to face in close combat. 

[Scurvydog]

A point for the powerfists is that the hand mounted phosphor guns look absolutely ridicilous

I think it would be a smart move to have at least 1 bot or so with Power Fists. Unit still remains pretty shooty but is also more dangerous to face in close combat.

Maybe 1 bot just to got a few punches in at I2 before other Powerfists gets to attack.

Overall yes the bots can easily shoot down a squad of marines, but that is assuming they all shoot at the same target, with the cohort you will be heavily outnumbered in many cases and want to shoot at different targets at once with the split fire rule of the formation at least. Outside the formation 4 bots in a unit would be silly anyway outside of massive point games.

When using the cohort a LOT of points often half the army pts will be dedicated to that unit, so just standing still with shooting protocols is not always an option. A smart opponent will also be able to use terrain and line of sight to block vulnerable units when he knows the protocol is activated and that the bots can't move. Having the twin linked phosphers is a lo more reliable than just the single carapace BS3 gun.

Anyway I guess it is also a question of local meta what players will value most here.

More smiths is not a bad option either, as long as you don't have more of them than bots, and then I might not want to hide them behind the bots, with majority or equal amount of T7 bots, you got smiths tanking with T7 a 2+ save and always FNP regardless of bot protocol, just take care of potential S8+ shooting, since that will still instant kill the smith if he takes an unsaved wound.

[Mushkilla]

Personally I'm running all powerfists and incendine combustors. I want to use this formation aggressively with triangle/diamond style objective placement to win the mission.

Powerfists bring S10 and an extra attack per model, making the unit lethal in assault (in particular against wolfstar and imperial knights). I find the incendine combustor mitigates the katelan's poor BS as a template weapon whilst still allowing it to project threat thanks to the torrent special rule. Ideal at clearing out chaff, blockers, objective holders and fodder it's the perfect weapon if you plan on using kastelans aggressively. The overwatch benefit is just icing. It's a weapon that encourages you to run in the early game instead of shooting which ensure you get your katelans into a central position for controlling clustered objectives. Finally it ties in nicely with the shooting protocol and split fire ability of the cohort for handling MSU in the mid field. It effectively projecting a 18-24" (depending on how you spread out your unit) radius bubble of area denial.

With triangle/diamond style objective placement this formation can be set up to deny/control 3-4 objective (albeit they can only control one objective). This forces your opponent to come to you. Finally with the shooting protocol preventing your robots from moving, your opponent can't use assault and chaff units to pull you out of position and off objectives.

Just some thoughts.