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Agreed, looking forward to seeing what the more experienced Knight players have to say about the 3 new variants.  Here's hoping my Paladin isn't totally obsolete!

It isn't. Tomorrow afternoon I will have the unit analysis complete. I have thought about this issue a while and despite the similarities between Paladin and Warden, there is a distinction. Be patient and you will have your answers ;)

It has a shoulder-mounted heavy stubber or meltagun, and you can opt for one of the three carapace weapons.  But yes, it's designed for close combat just as the Crusader is designed for shooting.  They're specialist platforms for players that 1) have multiple Knights and want to mix it up a bit, and/or 2) players that want to ally those specialties to balance out their lists.

 

I think that the Gallant (and the Crusader, for that matter) certainly has an important role to play.  I wouldn't want one to come running at my own Knights, for example.  I just don't think they'll be common roles that necessitate these patterns as must-haves.

I think the biggest thing the Gallant has going for it is its cost. It is cheap compared to other knights and that means something, especially if you want to field multiple knights. The gallant formation (3 Gallants with Rage, Crusader, and Re-roll charge distance) is all sorts of fun looking, especially if you face an army that doesn't want to face knights in melee.

 

What I think Crusader players will have to realize is that they need to charge sometimes. They can still shoot first, perhaps using the stubber only on their charge target, and then surprise their opponent by throwing HOW, 4 S10 AP2 attacks, and STOMP at a unit that never suspected the 'shooty' knight would charge anything. Its a gamble but great stories are often made by gambles (see: Scipio at Carthego Nova.)

To be fair, I like the Crusader the least of all the Knights. Warden and Paladin are the two top Knights for me, the Acheron as well if you count FW. Those are my trio. They are closely followed by the Gallant (replacing the Acheron in non-FW games) and Errant, then Crusader comes in last. But those are my personal preferences, which is not solely bound by performance but by a lot of other factors. So I still suggest that people try it themselves and make their own mind :wink:

Edited by Immersturm

As Immersturm said, the Paladin and Warden complement each other. However, the Errant ranks a bit higher on my list. Many times when taking a single Knight, I'll wish I had the Errant when I ran the Paladin and vice versa. The Paladin (and Warden) lacks punch against heavy vehicles and TEQs at range - the latter of which you don't always want to charge.

 

After tinkering over the past year, running a single Errant alongside 2-3 Paladins is a good mixture. The Errant tends to attract more fire, perhaps for its focus or perhaps just because it's different. It can take the beating, though, and the Paladins are able to back it up if it needs the help bringing something down.

 

Errants play well mid-field, allowing the longer-ranged Paladins to sit back and lay down that sweet, sweet 72" battlecannon fire. It also works well as the pivot for a sweeping arc across the board, which is my preferred tactic when going in blind.

 

To each their own, though. Diversity is the spice of life, and I seriously recommend a look to anyone building a dedicated Household.

Edited by CommodusXIII

Well said. I suppose the reason why I do not play the Errant very often is because I rarely see 2+ save units without an invulnerable save or ablative wounds. However, this is why I magnetize all my Knights, so I always have the option changing things up. I can not recommend it enough.

Yeah, because we have such a small model count Knight Households are very specialized to whatever meta they're in.  I encounter a lot of Space Marine and MEQ armies, and few Guard/Ork/Tyranid armies.  The Acheron is designed to combat the latter as the Errant is the former.

The Paladin is always confused on what it wants to do, it can either support or it can get it stuck in, but rarely can it do both. The Errant is much more focused, as its range allows it to both support and get it stuck in, so very little confusion. The Warden is like the Errant, in that it's range is where it needs to be to support and get it stuck in. The Crusader costs too much, should be 380 base, not 425. The Gallant is an oddity that could work really, really well if you shoot (or don't shoot) the right thing, or it could be the most wrong Knight to take the moment you shoot (or don't shoot) the wrong thing; you'll still take him to free up points, though.

 

SJ

Edited by jeffersonian000

The gatling is maybe about 3 lascannons worth of anti armour - depending on target AV.

 

E.g. vs AV 14 (assuming auto hit, mean results): gatling gets 2/3 of a glance plus 2/3 of a pen. 3 lascannons get 1/2 glance and 1/2 pen. Even adjusting for the AP2, the gatling is better. Against a land raider, the gatling is almost as good as 4 lascannons.

 

Meanwhile the thermal cannon gets 1/9 glances and 13/18 pens. Arguably that's better than the gatling due to the 5+ explodes result, but even doubling the value of a pen result (a generous approximation of worth) the thermal cannon sits at 28/18 hull points, and the gatling 24/18. Actually not a lot in it even vs a land raider, and the numbers will favour the gatling vs lower armour values.

 

It seems pretty great at anti-armour to me...

Edited by skeletoro

the moment you get a warden or a crusader with bs5, you start to see the joy of that gun:)either by making it a baron or just taking it in an exalted formation.

 

I think I'll do a write up on the two FW knights I use the most.

 

Cerastus Chassis.

 

There are a few things that this type of knight all have in common. 4 attacks base, run 3d6 add them together an they can be taken as LOW's choices for imperial armies. you can only have as many of one type of crests as you have other types of knight in your army. It's weird but you could take 4 castigators, but not three castigators and a lancer, you could take 2 lancers and 2 castigators or two acherons and a warden a crusader and a gallant.[they worded the rule... poorly]

Chassis Basics: It's brutally fast. being able to get into your opponents deployment zone turn one puts one hell of a shock into your foe. I ran 4 at the LVO and running two up either side of the board made it very easy to keep the front armour the only armour the enemy could shoot at. also fighting in you opponents some means even if space marines flee combat they could well run off the board.

I had a wave serpent spam elder player concede at the end of turn two, part of the reason was that he couldn't get away from them.

Movement and positioning is King in 40k and these knights shine in that department....but they do have downsides. 2 out of three only have one gun:( 

 

Chassis Advanced: Being a LWO for imperials opens up some nice legacies of glory and chapter tactics shenanigans. Being an Iron hands LOW grants It will not die. a few choice legacies from Ia2 are, 4++ vs haywire and tank hunter[very nice for a castigator] hatred vs orcs and forces a charging enemy to reroll any hits against you[hot damn thats amazing, especially a wraithkngiht vs a lancer, WK hits on 5+ and has to preroll any hits.]

 

Lancer basics:

A close combat monster, designed to kill massive single targets. when it charges it gets + 1 initiative. it's 18 inch gun has 6 strength 7 ap2 concussive shots, meaning it will go at the same time if not before a wraithkngiht. 

Its shield grants a 5++ in combat and gargantuans and super heavies are at a -1 penalty to hit it.

as with all cerastus it has 4 attacks base and 3d6 run, what a beast.

Can't place his ion field to the rear:(

 

Lancer advanced: He is probably the best choice to be a high king. w6 means he's hitting pretty much anything he needs to on 3's and hitting with his shock lance on 2's. adding 1 to his ion field save grants him a 4++ in combat[i've checked with FW] and works extremely well with the sanctuary heirloom. granting 5++ on all sides... including the rear which is usually a big problem for the lancer. Being a character also helps as you can challenge out problem characters like necron lords , melta bombs and powerfists.

As a lord of war for a baal strike force detachment you get +1 initiative on the charge...getting to attack a wraithkngiht before it can swing??? priceless:)

 

Castigator Basics:

A horde killing machine. 8 two linked 36 inch range strength 7 apt shots is pretty nice and will do for some light anti air if you're desperate.

He shines in close combat however. His sword is only strength 10 ap2 but don't fret, it has the deflagrate special rule. Work out how many unsaved wounds are done after the first round of attacks and you get that many free hits on the unit again. meaning he does , on average two wounds per hit vs enemy monsters creatures...which is reasonable. But then comes the real gravy part.

Tempest attack: instead of attacking normally you can instead attack at initiative 2 and auto hit everything in base contact[deflagrate works on this as well, also checked with FW] so you can wait till your enemy crowds around you then Auto hit everyone and then for every wound that gets through.. auto hit them again. I've killed 18 guardsmen in one swing with that attack alone.

 

Advanced: As the tempest attack is at a set initiative[like hammer of wrath] it will always strike at initiative 2, even if you charge through terrain:)

If you are fighting against slow enemies[necrons, orcs, tau etc] you can use it to only hit once and probably only kill two guys in the squad, meaning they could well make their leadership check and keep you trapped[hehe] in combat, while in their turn you can kill everyone and escape as they will have moved into base contact with you.

Tempest is also beautiful vs invisible units, as it auto hits. as do your stomps.

Sometimes it's best not to charge and let your opponent charge you, i.e. vs Wolf star lists. Run right next to them and let them charge you, they already have counter attack so it's the same amount of attacks you face anyway, and many many more of them will be in base contact with you. also the same vs meganobs,  you won't kill enough if you charge them, but if they charge you, they'll probably all be dead before they get to swing.

the ullanor crusade legacy of war works nicely having your enemy retooling to hit you if they charge you as well:)

 

Acheron Basics.

The only cerastus to have two guns. that apace flamer template str7 ap3 reroll to armour pen is a thing of beauty. but it can put you in awkward positions defensively. the chain fist rerolling 1's on the destroyer table saved me not killing a fell blade on the charge once...talk about possible embarrassment:P.

He's slightly less than the cost of a crusader and fairly easy to use, haven't found any secret tech except pick your moment carefully

The gatling is maybe about 3 lascannons worth of anti armour - depending on target AV.

 

E.g. vs AV 14 (assuming auto hit, mean results): gatling gets 2/3 of a glance plus 2/3 of a pen. 3 lascannons get 1/2 glance and 1/2 pen. Even adjusting for the AP2, the gatling is better. Against a land raider, the gatling is almost as good as 4 lascannons.

 

Meanwhile the thermal cannon gets 1/9 glances and 13/18 pens. Arguably that's better than the gatling due to the 5+ explodes result, but even doubling the value of a pen result (a generous approximation of worth) the thermal cannon sits at 28/18 hull points, and the gatling 24/18. Actually not a lot in it even vs a land raider, and the numbers will favour the gatling vs lower armour values.

 

It seems pretty great at anti-armour to me...

 

Well, you are comparing it to the single most ineffective dedicated anti-tank weapon in the game. But you are also approaching it from a wrong perspective. You see, death only matters on light and medium dedicated transports. Those are meant to be spammed. However, heavy transports like the Land Raider, you do not need to kill them right away. What matters is is to stop movement. The Errant is the only one capable of doing that, seeing as upon a pen, which is very likely, you need to roll a 2, 4, 5 or 6 to prevent movement (or outright kill it). Chances are very good that you can stop a Land Raider T1.

 

One Warden with his Gatling per shooting phase:

Against AV11 - 5.33 hull-points, 2.66 of which are penetrating hits.

Against AV12 - 1.33 hull-points, all of them are penetrating hits.

Against AV13 - 1.33 hull-points, 0.88 of which are penetrating hits.

Against AV14 - 0.88 hull-points, 0.44 of which are penetrating hits.

 

Those results are not nearly reliable enough. Compare it to a Paladin's estimated results (not the actual ones because taking into account blasts is rather tedious), then you see that the main gun alone will perform at least 50% better against AV12 and 13, which are the most common tanks and transports out there. The Warden will perform better against Ork Pick-Up spam, but that is fine seeing as the Paladin will be busy shooting the inevitable blobs.

 

So no, while the Warden is more effective against AV11 and below, it fails against the most common AV, which is what the Paladin does reasonably well. Both Paladin and Warden fail against AV14, which is where the Errant comes in. To show this more graphically:

 

AV10        AV11         AV12       AV13                 AV14

Warden    Warden    Paladin    Paladin/Errant    Errant

 

There is little to no overlap. They all have their roles to play.

Edited by Immersturm

RELICS, thoughts

 

The ravager: on a baron or high king hitting on 3+'s re rolling 1's really ups the hit percentage. also the ap1 on the blade rather than ap2 doubles the likely hood of doing a further d3 hull points every time you hit a superheavy[you still roll the penetration result with D] and also ups the chance of exploding a vehicle[fluffing attacks vs dreadnoughts is depressing]

 

Sanctuary:  pretty bad on anything that isn't a High King, 5++ on all sides is pretty fantastic, and especially on a Lancer which will protect it's usually impossible to protect rear

RELICS, thoughts

 

The ravager: on a baron or high king hitting on 3+'s re rolling 1's really ups the hit percentage. also the ap1 on the blade rather than ap2 doubles the likely hood of doing a further d3 hull points every time you hit a superheavy[you still roll the penetration result with D] and also ups the chance of exploding a vehicle[fluffing attacks vs dreadnoughts is depressing]

 

Sanctuary:  pretty bad on anything that isn't a High King, 5++ on all sides is pretty fantastic, and especially on a Lancer which will protect it's usually impossible to protect rear

 

Aye, good points. I will add it ;)

I think I want to build one of each (errant, paladin and warden), and flesh out the rest of the army (allied) with whatever I need to have a complete package. Thoughts?

 

Safe choice and a pretty good one at that. The three generalists do a good job (or semi-generalist for the Errant). The specialist Knights require more work and specific tactics to accommodate and might not always be a good choice. I say go ahead. The basic setup is solid ;)

Imperial Knight Detachments

 

The Detachment analysis is a bit complicated now. While I can give advice on how to run those detachment as a pure IK army, without any other supporting elements. But once other armies comes into the mix, the variables become almost infinitely large, thus making it impossible to make a proper recommendation.

This is why this section is used to outline the different detachments, talking about their advantages and disadvantages as well as give a recommendation on what Knights when choosing this Detachment in a pure Knight army. Combinations with other armies will be discussed later the 'Allies' section.

 

Household Detachment

Compulsory: 3 Knights

Optional: 2 Knights

Requirements: None

This is the most basic detachment for the Imperial Knights and is their version of the Combined Arms Detachment from the rulebook. It allows you to nominate one Knight as your Warlord and give him an Heirloom as well as increasing his WS and BS by one. It also gives the standard benefit of being able to re-roll your Warlord Trait from the Codex and gives your Warlord re-rolls to hit in a challenge.

The unique benefit is that all your Knights have Objective Secured. This benefit is tricky, because it is as much a trap as it is useful. Despite having this rule, do not think that the Knight's time is now better spend sitting on an objective. Hell no! Knights need to be flexible but most of all, proactive and aggressive. The Crusader and sometimes the Paladin are the only ones you can afford sitting on an objective for longer period of time. But is this rule useful then? To snatch enemy objectives. It is rather common that the opponent will have his own unit on an objective you need. You can then charge said unit with your Knight. Even if you do not wipe it, chances are that the OS rule will allow you to control that point. This rule needs to be used aggressively, not defensively. Playing you Knights defensively can result in the opponent overwhelming you.

Is this detachment good? Hard to say. Next to the Oathsworn Detachment it is the only actual Force Organization Chart in the book. The rest are Formations. You might be forced to play this detachment, whether you like it or not, if you are unable to play Formations for whatever reason. If Formations are allowed, I feel that those have an edge over this one. Knights are not objective campers by design. Other Formations actually help your survivability or damage output.

You might want to consider this one if you are playing pure Knights, but if playing a combined force, then the Formations have the edge.

 

Advantages:

Field Domination - this detachment will allow you to steal objectives more efficiently

Not a Formation - this detachment can be played even if Formations are banned

 

Disadvantages:

No performance enhancing benefits - the benefit here are purely focused on objectives

May promote wrong play style - it might cause you to play defensively and not build enough pressure with Knights because you are too busy denying objectives to the enemy

 

Recommanded Knights:

Warden, Errant, Paladin - general purpose Knights are flexible enough to switch between stealing an objective if convenient and breaking enemy lines

Crusader at 1500+ - the Crusader is the only Knight who can afford to sit on an objective due to the lack of dedicated melee weapons

 

Not recommended Knights:

Gallant - its play style is too focused on advancing and hunting specific units to make much use of the OS rule

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/ifppoFs.png

 

Oathsworn Detachment

Compulsory: 1 Knight

Optional: 2 Knights

Restrictions: Can not be your Primary Detachment

The second Force Organization Chart-based detachment. Where the Household Detachment is designed to be a primary detachment, this one is your dedicated 'allied' detachment. This is how most armies will access Imperial Knight allies.

There is little I can say about this detachment, because its setup depends on the army this detachment is used in combination with. I will come back to it in the 'Allies' section.

There is one other use in combination with the Gallant Lance, Skyreaper Lance and Tripartite Lance. All of those Formations have to include exactly three Knights. If you want to field those Formations, but also have more than 3 Knights on the Board, you take this Detachment as a second one.

 

Recommended use:

As part of a combined force

As addition to Gallant Lance, Skyreaper Lance and Tripartite Lance in order to be able to field more than three Knights

 

http://i.imgur.com/ifppoFs.png

 

Skyreaper Lance

Compulsory: 3 Knights

Optional: None

Restrictions: All Knight must take Icarus Autocannons

 

The Skyreaper Lance does exactly what it sounds like, it keeps the skies clear. All Knights must be equipped with the anti-air carapace weapon. The Formation gives all Knights the Skyreaper rule, which is an equivalent to Tank Hunter and Monster Hunter against Flyers and Flying Monstrous Creatures respectively.

This Formation is highly specialized, as as such should only be used in specific occasions. This one is very handy if you know you will be facing plenty of threatening airborne units (Necron or Imperial Guard Air Force, Tyranid Skyblight, Daemon Flying Circus) or your local gaming group is filled to the brim with flyers in general. In all other scenarios this Formation will bring you no benefit whatsoever. The Tank Hunter and Monster Hunter rule only counts for airborne units, thus giving no benefits against Skimmers.

 

Strenghts:

Keeps the Skies clear - it might not look like much, but this Formation can threaten airborne units pretty well

 

Weaknesses:

Only three Knights - if you want more, you need to take an additional detachment

No other benefits - this Formation is strictly worse than the House Detachment or Baronial Court when you are not facing any flyers

 

Recommended Knights:

Warden, Crusader - both Knights have the Gatling, which can shoot flying units fairly effectively due to its high rate of fire

 

Not recommended Knights:

None - usually, all armies with numerous air elements will have ground elements, so no Knight will be useless here seeing as every Knight can take Icarus Autocannons

 

http://i.imgur.com/ifppoFs.png

Gallant Lance

Compulsory: 3 Gallant Knights

Optional: None

Restrictions: None

The second specialist Formation. But rather than keeping the skies clear, this Formation stays firmly on the ground and focused on glorious melee carnage. All Knights will get the Rage and Crusader Special Rules and will be able to re-roll failed charges. This Formation is outright deadly once the Knights hit the enemy lines. Each single Knight will be hitting with 6 Destroyer attacks on top of Stomp.

The Crusader rule will allow them to close the distance quickly. The Gallant variant is also the cheapest, making this the cheapest Formation in the book. However, it still comes at a steep price. You have no ranged weapons on the Knights and despite being cheap, three Gallant still take up 975pts in your army, hurting your ability to Alpha Strike. While they may dominate armies with very little long ranged shooting like Space Marines or Daemons, they will suffer greatly against highly mobile armies like Eldar or against cheap roadblock units.

Given that most armies can bring up enough firepower to kill your allies at 1500-1750 games and can come up with cheap roadblocks for your Knights, it comes a fairly risky choice that can backfire very easily.

 

Strengths:

Overpowering melee - a single Gallant is deadly enough in melee, but the the addition of the Formation rules, it will be so much more likely to reach combat and tear up even the toughest units, making it a prime choice against other melee armies or armies with little to no long ranged shooting

 

Weaknesses:

No ranged capabilities - you are reliant on allies to clear roadblocks or soften up tar-pits

 

Recommended upgrades:

Melta - this gives the Gallant a chance at opening a transport and charging the unit that was riding it right after

Stormspear Rockets - helps to kill transports that the Melta failed to kill. You might want to run in your first turn, so this one might not be worth it. Keep the Knights cheap. It is an option though.

 

http://i.imgur.com/ifppoFs.png

Triparite Lance

Compulsory: 1 Crusader, 1 Warden, 1 Gallant

Optional: None

Restrictions: All Knights are fielded as one unit

The last of what I call the 'Restrictive Formations' and also the one most suited for general use. The unique part of this Formation is that all three Knights are fielded as one unit and every Knight gives a benefit to the unit while it is alive. On paper, this sounds pretty good and to some extend it is. However, there are some limitations that stop it from being top tier. The benefits given by the Warden and Crusader are all focused on shooting, giving both Knights a massive boost in their ranged output. Those buffs are wasted on the Gallant. Furthermore, the Gallant's buff to melee is very mediocre and often negligible. This does not give me enough incentive to use the unit as a melee unit, especially since they all much charge together as unit. Most of the time this does not matter too much since few units can withstand the force of three Knights charging them, however if the unit will be stuck in combat against a Death Star or a massive blob, then it does you more harm than good. Also, you are not able to engage more than one unit at a time in melee outside of doing a disordered charge.

As such, one of the better ways to use this Formation is to focus on ranged output and only charge unit that you are guaranteed to kill in two combat rounds, while using the Gallant more as a shield up front and to discourage counter-assaults.

Overall, a solid Formation with plenty of potential, somewhat let down by its inflexibility and minor cost inefficiency. Probably the third best way to field three Knights outside of the Baronial Court and Household Detachment

 

Strengths:

Good shooting - due to the buffs to ranged attacks and solid ranged weaponry, this Formation can outshoot entire armies

Deadly in melee - three Knights, even if one of them is a Crusader, are a very legitimate threat that is not so easily taken down in melee

 

Weaknesses:

Inflexible - due to the Knights being fielded as a unit, this makes you somewhat sacrifice board control due to required proximity and inability to charge multiple unit reliably

Slight cost inefficiency - the ranged buffs are wasted on the Gallant and the melee buffs are not enough to warrant its inclusion

 

Recommended upgrades:

Carapace Weapons - you want to capitalize on the excellent shooting buffs given by the Warden and Crusader and thus include more ranged weapons, at least on the Warden and Crusader (not necessarily on the Gallant due to it mostly acting as a shield)

 

http://i.imgur.com/ifppoFs.png

Baronial Court

Compulsory: Three Knights

Optional: Two Knights

Restrictions: None

This is probably the most common way outside of the Household Detachment and in my eyes the most efficient. The Ion Shield Wall helps you to survive enemy Alpha Strike, which is a massive bonus in my eyes, and being able to fire Overwatch is a nice bonus for the Warden and Crusader. This Formation also allows you to nominate a Baron and it also may include your Warlord, giving you access to a Heirloom. There is very little to say here, because of the flexibility and always useful defensive bonuses, you can make this make this Formation to be whatever you like with whatever strategy you have in mind.

As with the Oathsword Detachment and Household Detachment, I will mention this one in the Allied sections, because much like the aforementioned two it has the required flexibility to work very well along side other armies of the Imperium.

 

Strengths:

Survivability boost - Ionic Shieldwall will go a long way in protecting you against enemy Alpha Strike

Flexibility - this Formation can be made to fit almost any role you require

 

Weaknesses:

No offensive boosts - I am hard pressed to name any weakness here, but if it has to be one, then the lack of an offensive boost like you find in all other Formations in the book

 

Recommended Knights:

Depends on general strategy and potential allies

 

http://i.imgur.com/ifppoFs.png

Exalted Court

Compulsory: Five Knights

Optional: None

Restrictions: None

If you want to field five Knights, this is probably as good as it gets. Though reserved for 1850 points or more, you certainly get plenty of bang for your buck in terms of detachment bonuses. One Knight will get a boost to its Ion Shield as well as a staggering boost of +2 to WS and BS. All other Knights get a +1 boost to WS and BS. All Knights become characters and gain access to Heirlooms.

This will probably become the standard way of playing five Knights and the premier way to field Knights at 2000 points of above. The offensive bonuses as well as defensive bonus on the High King is too good to pass up for things like Objective Secured or situational bonuses of the other Formations. While the Baronial Courts has an edge in the defense, and is probably superior if facing a lot of Alpha Strike, the Exalted Court should outperform it in the long run due to better stats and universal access to Heirlooms.

 

Strengths:

Very tough Warlord - +1 to Ion Shield as well as WS6 makes it very hard to drop this one

Universal access to Heirlooms - this is major step in enhancing the offensive output of Knights or add to their survivability with IWND

Flexible - much like the Baronial Court, you can completely mix and match Knights to suit your style

 

Weaknesses:

Expensive to field - due to the requirement to field five Knight, it is very expensive to field, both monetary-wise and point-wise

No defensive bonuses - outside of the IWND Heirloom and the boost to the Ion Shield of the High King, there is nothing that makes your Knight last longer, unlike the Ionic Shieldwall of the Baronial Court

 

Recommended Knights:

Depends on general strategy and potential allies

 

http://i.imgur.com/ifppoFs.png

Back to the top

Edited by Immersturm

Definitely. I will add another section with links to people's experiences and battle reports they post here and somewhere else on the board. That way we can have some first hand feedback right here where it belong :wink:

Edited by Immersturm

magaera's are almost indestructible sitting a the back in a the baronial formation, 3++ with effectively v14 or maybe 15[vs blasts] and 6+ fnp 

Or they can have two side be v13, which really messes with flyrants and scat bikes trying to hurt them. their damage out put is... not that great, but pretty much nothing beats them on the survivability front. They are also pretty good with the baronial formation as overmatching with the rad flamer thing is pretty badass

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