Tactica: Imperial Knights (Blood Angels and Cult done)

[wulfgar hammerfist]

I'm really liking this series so far. I just picked up the codex today along with a Knight kit. I have a paladin and an errant already and I'm looking to make this one a warden. This is very helpful to me and I appreciate the effort!  

[Marshal Ommadon]

I don't know if this has already been mentioned but the Twin Icarus Autocannon is Twin-Linked and has Interceptor. 

 

Another important note is that the only Knights that can take Heirlooms are those from the Exalted Court, Baronial Court, or the Household Detachment.  If you are allying with Imperial Knights, your Knight cannot purchase a Heirloom.

[Frater Cornelius]

Yeah, I guess the Heirloom info should be be mentioned in the Heirloom section. I will add that.

[Hellrender]

Bui still find it difficult to choose a crusader over a warden, paladin or errant.

 

Let's say we make a 1500 pt army.

Gallant

Warden

Errant

Paladin

 

All stock, then we got 55 pts left. For that pt cost we could upgrade the errant to a stock crusader, but then we have 2 specialists in a very small army. On top of that you can't give it more guns, reducing its effectiveness in its specialization. I just find 100 pts more than a paladin a bit much.

 

Back to that list. Which formation would you recommend? Any recommendation on which knights? (Self imposed rule: max 1 fw knight, and max 1 knight of each type).

Edited May 9, 2015 by Hellrender

[Vel'Cona]

It's a shame about the Heirlooms, but I think it's a good step to encourage codex play.  You shouldn't get all the treats for allied units, IMO!

[minionboy]

The thing that seems to be forgotten about a Paladin vs Warden at shooting Armour is that while the Paladin does damage more reliably, it will almost never (unless you get 2 immobilized results) outright kill any HP3 transport in the game... Meaning in an all knight army you'll have to either give it the Stormspear rockets and hope to finish it off, or dedicate yet another Knights firepower to kill it. The Warden however will usually finish off most transports in the game, revealing their squishy contents to be fired at by another knight.

[Frater Cornelius]

The thing that seems to be forgotten about a Paladin vs Warden at shooting Armour is that while the Paladin does damage more reliably, it will almost never (unless you get 2 immobilized results) outright kill any HP3 transport in the game... Meaning in an all knight army you'll have to either give it the Stormspear rockets and hope to finish it off, or dedicate yet another Knights firepower to kill it. The Warden however will usually finish off most transports in the game, revealing their squishy contents to be fired at by another knight.

 

Most used transports in the game are AV12 or higher. The Warden will get an average of three glaces per two shooting phases. That is not an efficient use of the Warden at all. Maths shows that the Warden is at its best against AV11 or less. Almost no vehicles like that are being played due to their vulnerability. At least not frequently enough to call the Warden good at tank-hunting.

[CommodusXIII]

I find it best to focus on individual targets one at a time, so this is less of an issue for me. The first Palafin whittles off the hull points, while the second finishes it off and starts chewing into the occupants. It's better to have one unit completely destroyed than two partially-damaged - the latter can still shoot back! Edited May 10, 2015 by CommodusXIII

[Frater Cornelius]

Detachment analysis is done. Enjoy.

[minionboy]

 

 

The thing that seems to be forgotten about a Paladin vs Warden at shooting Armour is that while the Paladin does damage more reliably, it will almost never (unless you get 2 immobilized results) outright kill any HP3 transport in the game... Meaning in an all knight army you'll have to either give it the Stormspear rockets and hope to finish it off, or dedicate yet another Knights firepower to kill it. The Warden however will usually finish off most transports in the game, revealing their squishy contents to be fired at by another knight.

Most used transports in the game are AV12 or higher. The Warden will get an average of three glaces per two shooting phases. That is not an efficient use of the Warden at all. Maths shows that the Warden is at its best against AV11 or less. Almost no vehicles like that are being played due to their vulnerability. At least not frequently enough to call the Warden good at tank-hunting.

That must be a local thing. Every major tournament I go to has plenty of rhinos, raiders, chimeras and other AV 10-11 transports. As much as you may think your math is correct, you're doing straight multiplication, not proper statistics. The odds of doing 3 HP of damage with a 2 shot gun is basically 0.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

 

The thing that seems to be forgotten about a Paladin vs Warden at shooting Armour is that while the Paladin does damage more reliably, it will almost never (unless you get 2 immobilized results) outright kill any HP3 transport in the game... Meaning in an all knight army you'll have to either give it the Stormspear rockets and hope to finish it off, or dedicate yet another Knights firepower to kill it. The Warden however will usually finish off most transports in the game, revealing their squishy contents to be fired at by another knight.

Most used transports in the game are AV12 or higher. The Warden will get an average of three glaces per two shooting phases. That is not an efficient use of the Warden at all. Maths shows that the Warden is at its best against AV11 or less. Almost no vehicles like that are being played due to their vulnerability. At least not frequently enough to call the Warden good at tank-hunting.

That must be a local thing. Every major tournament I go to has plenty of rhinos, raiders, chimeras and other AV 10-11 transports. As much as you may think your math is correct, you're doing straight multiplication, not proper statistics. The odds of doing 3 HP of damage with a 2 shot gun is basically 0.

 

 

Never said it is possible to one-shot a vehicle with a Paladin. All I am saying is that S8 Ordnance is more reliable to damage a tank than S6 Rending. If it obvious that two shots without AP2 have very little chance of killing a 3 HP vehicle. I take it for granted that people realize that. Hence my recommendation to take the Stormspear Rockets if you want to hunt tanks.

I also remember mentioning that the Warden kills AV10 and AV11 best, Paladin handles AV12 best and does a reasonable job against AV13 whereas the Errant handles AV13 and AV14 best since those usually do not come in high numbers.

All that info has been mentioned in the Tactica, so I am wondering why you are trying to prove things to me that I already mentioned myself. I mean, I welcome constructive criticism, but all you are saying is that my analysis is wrong, which isn't all that helpful considering that I mentioned the very same thing you just told me in the thread

 

The statistics issue is also not really a point worth arguing over. Saying that I can not do statistics is a bit of a stretch, especially since I am doing a degree on it. But is there a point cracking out full spreadsheets that many people won't know how to approach? I think everyone can agree that it is easier to just say what a gun can and can not do and skip the numbers for the sake of simplicity. Let's face it, when a player is advanced enough to know exactly what gun goes where in what circumstance, that player has no need for guides.

 

As for the major tournament issue, yes there is plenty. However I have rarely seen those units get anywhere near the top, which either has AV12 or AV13 Skimmers, Drop Pods or forgoes AV completely most of the time. And personally, I do not see AV10 and AV11 as much of a threat to most armies anyway, least of all to Knights. There are also Land Raider, but those are the domain of the Errant. Neither the Paladin, nor the Warden will want to shoot at it unless you are really desperate.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Immersturm

[CommodusXIII]

Primary or pure Knight armies will come down between the Household Detachment and Baronial Court.

 

The former is especially good against Detachments or Formations that lack Objective Secured - a late-game Knight camping on an objective would be damned near impossible to dislodge. As Immersturm said, this is the Knight version of the CAD so players new to the Faction will likely feel more comfortable here before branching out.

 

The Baronial Court will likely be my personal stand-by. I'm accustomed to not having ObSec from the initial release of the Knights, so the Baronial Court is pure benefit. Ion Shield Wall is a nerfed version of the old Adamantium Lance formation, and the ability to Overwatch is a tremendous boost to my preferred playstyle.

 

The other three formations are one-trick ponies and not for TAC lists. They all have their use, but are very situational. Perhaps as part of a larger Apocalypse battle, or at least knowing your enemy ahead of time.

[Frater Cornelius]

Primary or pure Knight armies will come down between the Household Detachment and Baronial Court.

 

The former is especially good against Detachments or Formations that lack Objective Secured - a late-game Knight camping on an objective would be damned near impossible to dislodge. As Immersturm said, this is the Knight version of the CAD so players new to the Faction will likely feel more comfortable here before branching out.

 

The Baronial Court will likely be my personal stand-by. I'm accustomed to not having ObSec from the initial release of the Knights, so the Baronial Court is pure benefit. Ion Shield Wall is a nerfed version of the old Adamantium Lance formation, and the ability to Overwatch is a tremendous boost to my preferred playstyle.

 

The other three formations are one-trick ponies and not for TAC lists. They all have their use, but are very situational. Perhaps as part of a larger Apocalypse battle, or at least knowing your enemy ahead of time.

 

Personally, I feel like the Exalted Court will outperform the Baronial Court when you get to a point where you can field 5 Knights at around 2000pts. But I agree that it is a close call between Exalted and Baronial seeing as the Ionic Shieldwall is pretty damn good, especially early game, where it matters most.

[CommodusXIII]

Well yes, the Exalted Court is the rational progression from the Baronial Court. That's breaking into a new point level, though, while most games are played out below that limit. The tournament standard of 1850 points is a general upper bound - anything above that is usually a special occasion. Edited May 10, 2015 by CommodusXIII

[minionboy]

The problem with talking about doing single HP of damage is that it's incredibly inefficient to not kill a target outright with a knight in most circumstances. If you don't kill a rhino in a turn then firing at it with 2 Knights is dedicating 750+ points of firepower to kill a 35 point tank so that yet another knight can shoot the contents. I agree that doing single HP of damage to Av12-14 targets is better left to a paladin, but when you actually need to pop a tank in one turn, you're better off with something else.

[CommodusXIII]

That's exactly why it's good to have an Errant mixed in. Transport spam will always be a problem, though. The absolute worst thing to do is to start charging them - the contents will probably start poking you with meltaguns once you shake them out of their metal boxes.

[Pascalnz]

missed out one of the best parts of the tripartite formation. It's amazingly easy to buff three knights at once with psychic powers, one cast of presience or forwarning or invisibility or even just having shrouding near it, is awesome.

you can also, very easily just give the gallant  carapace weapon so it can shoot. also, d3 hammer of wraths each can mean you kill an opposing knight before it gets to swing[especially if already hurt by shooting.

[caladancid]

Am I missing something about the heirlooms and allied formations? It looks to me like you could have heirlooms with IK allies.

[Hellrender]

No, as only the characters can take heirlooms, and i believe the Allied IK detachment does not provide characters. In the Obj. Sec. detachment it states that one of the perks is to pick a a character, which can then take heirlooms. 

 

But going off memory here, might remember it wrong.

[Frater Cornelius]

@ caladancid - Only an IK character can receive an Heirloom. The wording in the book only allows you to nominate characters in three detachments. It does not need to be your primary one, but it has to be one of the three mentioned.

 

@ Pascalnz - Very good point. I will add that. Thanks ;)

 

@ minionboy - Aye, you are correct. No Knight apart from the Errant can finish a AV12+ tank in one go with just its main gun. Even an Errant only has a roughly 25% chance of outright blow up AV12 (according to shower math... Yes that is a thing). But that is an inherent weakness of the IK army. That, and flying stuff. This is why they benefit from allies like IG or Skits so much, seeing as both factions can open metal boxes and keep the sky clear reasonably well.

 

However, you are making one assumption, that somewhat undermines your point. You were (intentionally or unintentionally) assuming that one Knight will only fire its main gun at the transport and dedicate itself on that transport until it is destroyed. Things do not like that though. There are far more factors to consider. Carapace Weapons, specifically the Stormspear, will allow a Knight to finish a transport. Firing at one target and charging another is also an advantage that does not force a Knight to commit to anything. Say there are three Chimeras on the board as well as up to three possible targets to charge while you have three Paladins with Stormspears. Two Paladins can use their main guns on one Chimera and Stormspears on another, the third Knight will either help finish one of the other or, if things go as planned, dedicated all of its S8 onto the third Chimera, all while all three Knights also fire their Stubbers on whatever they want to charge. That is up to six targets potentially killed. Even though it took more than one IK to kill a transport but it still made good use of a Knight's points due to the ability and distribute firepower as required and charge a target unaffected by their shooting. It requires proper positioning to work, but that is what makes a good general in the first place.

A Knight might also kill a transport over two turns while charging a target each turn.

There is also the possibility to roll a 'Crew Stunned' or 'Immobilized' result and also possible to have the unit inside being forced to snap shot as well. That takes the transport out of the game, termporarily or even permanently, and does not require you to dedicate more firepower.

And lastly, there is the possibility of allied support. Maybe the Guard have knocked down an AV12 transport down to one HP, which makes it easy prey for the Paladin.

See? There are way too many variables, making 'one shot kill' assumptions not the only benchmark to measure anti-tank by. Sure, killing sometimes outright is nice, but certainly not the only possible way of handling a situiation.

[Zembar]

I'm pretty sure a warden could kill most AV12+ tanks in one go, if they're really lucky with their rending rolls.

[Frater Cornelius]

I'm pretty sure a warden could kill most AV12+ tanks in one go, if they're really lucky with their rending rolls.

 

Unfortunately, luck makes for a rather unreliable strategy.

 

Here, I have calculated the probability of a Warden killing an AV12 vehicle with the Avenger Gatling Cannon given various saving throws. Killing means getting at least 3 unsaved Rending hits or getting 2 unsaved Rending hits, which both result in penetrating hits and both roll an 'Immobilized' result.

Here it goes:

 

2+ save: 0.026594521 = approx. 2.7%

3+ save: 0.053189042 = approx. 5.3%

4+ save: 0.079783562 = approx. 8.0%

5+ save: 0.106378083 = approx. 10.6%

6+ save: 0.132972604 = approx. 13.3%

No save: 0.159567125 = approx. 16.0%

 

There is chance of it happening, but not enough for you to rely on.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Immersturm

[Zembar]

We were talking possibilities, not probabilities; and I'd say 25% isn't much to rely on either.

[Frater Cornelius]

We were talking possibilities, not probabilities; and I'd say 25% isn't much to rely on either.

 

Exactly. Knights simply do not have the capabilities to one shot kill tanks. Hence why overlapping fire and split-firing weapons as described above is paramount when playing IK.

[wako1302]

I usually play 1,750 points so I am thinking of running 4 knights, and an assassin to hold an objective and taken out the models that can hurt a knight. The Paladin & Errant are primarily support units, and the Warden & Castigator are the 'get stuck in' units.

 

1x Paladin - 375 points 

1x Errant - 370 points

1x Warden - 375 points

1x Castigator - 380 points

 

1x Vindicare Assassin - 150 points

 

1x Twin Icarus Autocannon (Paladin) - 35 points

1x Twin Icarus Autocannon (Errant) - 35 points

 

Leave 30 points for a Relic, but I am a but unsure about the Warlord/Baron rules. Is the Warlord the Lord Baron or can I have a Warlord & a Lord Baron.