Tactica: Imperial Knights (Blood Angels and Cult done)

[CommodusXIII]

The Warlord is the Baron, so you can't double-up.

[caladancid]

It is very possible I have been making mistakes in formations and detachments, but why can't a Baronial Court be an allied formation? The wording seems to allow for it, and the nomination as Baron is clearly written separate from the Warlord which would allow you to have the heirloom.

[Zembar]

The problem is that if your army contains character models, they have to be picked as the warlord before non-character models. So you can indeed pick both a baron and a warlord, but odds are you won't have any other characters in a knight-only army.

[CommodusXIII]

Yes, that's possible.  But not for wako1302's list.  The 7th Edition Rulebook states that "unless otherwise specified, the Warlord must be a Character".  The only Character in the Baronial Court Formation is the Baron, and there's no language that circumvents the quoted rule.  The other option would be for wako1302 to select his Vindicare Assassin as his Warlord. This would be an altogether silly choice, as he'd be placing the burden of Slay the Warlord on a very squishy Character.  Also, the Vindicare can't roll for Warlord Traits while the Baron can, so he'd be throwing away that free benefit.

 

This is different from the Household Detachment, which works by first nominating one Knight to be your Warlord.  The Knight Warlord then becomes the Lord Baron (and a Character).  This provides a loophole around the above quoted rule, as it is "otherwise specified".  In the Baronial Court, one Knight is the Baron and a Character by default, which can then be selected as your Warlord per the normal rules.

 

I'm not sure why the Detachment and Formation use different mechanics for the Baron, but they do function differently because of this choice.  If your Household Detachment is not chosen as your Primary Detachment (i.e. you don't make one of the included Knights your Warlord) you don't get to elevate one to the rank of Baron - no stat bonuses, no Character, no Heirlooms.  The Baron of the Baronial Court always have these bonuses, even if not chosen as a Warlord.

 

It would seem that the intention is to encourage taking the Baronial Court over the Household Detachment, if going for three allied Knights.  Perhaps to discourage the use of Knights with Objective Secured as allies.  Also, if taking both the Household Detachment and a Baronial Court, it encourages you to select a Knight from the Household Detachment as your Warlord - netting you two Barons - versus the Baron from the Baronial Court, which would then be your only one.  At that point, you're running 6 Knights and, well, that's a whole different kettle of fish.

 

EDIT:  Zembar ninja'd me.

Edited May 11, 2015 by CommodusXIII

[Vel'Cona]

Sounds like it's FAQ-time, GW!  (Now we play the waiting game) 

[caladancid]

Ok yeah all of that makes total sense. My main point was that it looks like you can take the Baronial Court as an allied formation, and therefore get an heirloom, which is different that what was stated earlier in the thread.

[Frater Cornelius]

Ok yeah all of that makes total sense. My main point was that it looks like you can take the Baronial Court as an allied formation, and therefore get an heirloom, which is different that what was stated earlier in the thread.

There are no 'allied' Formations. There is an Allied Detachment, which you find in the rule book. What you mean is that you can have a different detachment, which is also your primary one, whereas the Baronial Court is not your primary one. If that is the case, you can still nominate a Baron and still get your Heirloom. The only bonus you lose out on is the 'Lord Commander' buff, which allows your IK Warlord to reroll his trait and reroll to hit in challenges, which you can not have since your Warlord is in another detachment.

Pretty straight forward if you ask me :P

[caladancid]

Right. I was not using allied formations as a proper noun. What I meant by that was that I could have a primary detachment of Skitarii (or another faction) and have the Baronial Court (as allies i.e. a different faction) and then still get an heirloom.

[Frater Cornelius]

Yes, that is correct.

[Timotheus]

Awesome thread!!

 

Though I still have one problem: playing mainly against Tau and as a Marine Player having issues with countering their (long range) heavy firepower I finally decided to field a crusader against them. Now I can't figure out whether I should take the battlecannon or the thermalcannon to attend the gatling. I know it's hard to hand out advices in general terms because both have their advantages but I ask myself which is more useful "against all comers". Is the strength and ap of the thermalcannon really worth the high cadence of the battlecannon?

[CommodusXIII]

You have plenty of opportunities for high strength and AP3 with the Crusader - what you lack is AP1.  If that matters, then the Thermal Cannon is your ticket.  If you think you can get by without it, then you can probably get more mileage out of the Battlecannon.  Does your Tau opponent field a lot of vehicles?

[Timotheus]

You have plenty of opportunities for high strength and AP3 with the Crusader - what you lack is AP1.  If that matters, then the Thermal Cannon is your ticket.  If you think you can get by without it, then you can probably get more mileage out of the Battlecannon.  Does your Tau opponent field a lot of vehicles?

Thanks for your advice! If I remember correctly, besides the commander all battlesuits have a 3+ so that would make me tend to the battlecannon. Though he usually fields one hammerhead and one or two devilfish...

[CommodusXIII]

If he's fielding mostly suits, then the battlecannon is probably the better choice.

 

Be prepared to have that Crusader be the focus of a lot of incoming fire, especially from Tau.  It'll probably die often, but if you make good use of the distraction then the rest of your army should have some breathing room to act.  Your biggest problem will probably come from smart missiles, which negate any attempts to limit LOS and maximize cover.  If he has relatively few markerlights you can try to pick them off, otherwise it's best to ignore them and do as much damage as you can to his heavy hitters before you go down.

 

The Crusader usually should avoid combat to maximize the use of those guns that you paid extra for, but hopping from assault to assault is a good way to avoid getting shot up.  If you can weather a few turns of exchanging fire, it would be good to spend your endgame hunting suits at close range.  The lack of Str D might hurt you a bit, but you can still Stomp the hell out of everything - even Riptides, though you shouldn't underestimate an MC in combat.

Edited May 12, 2015 by CommodusXIII

[jeffersonian000]

I'd go with the Battlecannon and the Barrage missile launcher. They share the same range bracket, and net the most flexibility versus Tau.

 

SJ

[Frater Cornelius]

I'd go with the Battlecannon and the Barrage missile launcher. They share the same range bracket, and net the most flexibility versus Tau.

 

SJ

I agree. Riptides are not the biggest threat to you as a Knight. Crisis and Railheads are worse, especially with Markerlight support. Ironstorm is great to put pressure on Pathfinders and eliminate Drones while the BC does good damage all around.

There is a case for the Errant, however. AV13 is easier to kill with a Thermal Cannon and its almost guaranteed to make him jink. Also, it gets past the 2+ save of Broadsides.

[skeletoro]

replying to your comment a few pages back Immer:

 

yeah, the AP1 thermal cannon may indeed have an edge in immobilizing a transport. However, obviously that isn't an all-encompassing benchmark. Yeah, sometimes you'll want to get that immobilized or Explodes result. But sometimes your target will be sitting at 1hp - in which case, reliability is more important and the thermal cannon is markedly inferior. Sometimes it will be sitting at 2hp. Sometimes... you get the idea. Circumstances vary. For that reason, expected (mean) hull points damage does have value as a metric even though it itself fails to capture everything.

[Hellrender]

would people rather take a gallant and 4 knights (total), and some upgrades/heirlooms, or no gallant, but only 3 knights, some heirlooms and upgrades?

Edited May 13, 2015 by Hellrender

[Marshal Ommadon]

The Twin Icarus Autocannon isn't as bad as your description makes them out to be.  48" S7 AP4 Heavy 2, Interceptor, Skyfire, Twin-Linked is still not to shabby for 35 points.  Any Knight I take with my Skitarii/Cult Mechanicus army will have one.

 

A Knight with an Interceptor weapon can throw an enemy off.

[Frater Cornelius]

B18904; background-image:url(/bcode/hq2.gif); background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: 8px 2px; padding: 12px 8px 12px 8px; border: 1px solid #DDD; margin-left: 0 auto; text-align: left; color: #fff; text-indent:50px; font-size:130%; width:50%;">Allies

 

Now let us take a look at how different armies work together with Imperial Knights. Seeing as the B&C only covers human factions, I will only go over those. And besides, who needs those filthy Xenos here anyway. Another point I want to mention is that the example builds for each army are neither the best, nor the only way to play them. Those are merely builds that I liked and that went well with my play style. They are meant as inspiration and give an example. I generally dislike creating lists for others, seeing as everyone has their own way of playing.

 

But first, let's look at what Imperial Knights are looking for.

As already discussed, some Knight are quite good at stripping hull-points, but it still takes considerable amount of shooting to actually open up all transports, if the enemy fields a mechanized army.

The other weakness of Knights are flying units. Despite the addition of the Icarus Autocannons and an anti-air Formation, those are still very inefficient ways of dealing with flyers.

Lastly, Imperial Knights have the lowest body-count in Warhammer 40k and thus can not afford to camp the back-field or other objectives. They need more bodies on the board, that provide the army with good staying power and capping prowess.

 

One more thing needs to be mentioned. Imperial Knights are vehicles, so common logic would dictate that you need an army full of vehicles to support them, thus rendering the opponent's anti-infantry guns useless. While this is true, most vehicles are not a good choice these days, mostly because of how easy it is to glance most imperial vehicles compared to Xenos Skimmers.

Instead, try to see how well the guns synergize or how well the list-building works. There are plenty of other ways how an army can work together. Imperial Knights are an advanced army. Not easy to play with or against. Thus you need to thing beyond basic game play tactics to succeed.

 

http://i.imgur.com/ifppoFs.png

 

 

Skitarii

The small metal men from Mars pack quite a punch. I rank them being one of the better armies to support the Imperial Knight. Lets see what they have going for them.

For one, they are cheap. This synergizes will with the Knights, seeing as you can bring more bodies on the board to balance things out.

They also bring the single most efficient gun for killing Vehicles, the Arc Rifle. This gun is S6 base and has the Haywire effect in addition with 1 shot at 24" and 2 shots at 12". You can have three of those per unit for a very reasonable price. This gives you a reliable counter to high AV and very good medium and light armour busting capabilities, seeing as you get a chance for a glace or pen with the S6 in addition the hull-point loss through Haywire. These guns are mounted on cheap spammable bodies that have reasonable defensive stats and multiple ways of boosting their BS to ungodly accuracy. Those units also have access to a piece of wargear, called the Omnispex, that lowers the enemy's cover by 1, which is great when going after pesky Skimmers.

 

There are also other tank-busters in the army. For example, the Ironstrider Balistarii, which mounts a twin-linked Autocannon. This may not sound all that exciting until you realize how mobile that platform thanks to Dune Strider is and that even the weakest BS boost of the army will give them an effective BS of 10 (BS5 twin-linked). You are always guaranteed to get your hits. This is great to knock off that last hull-point. They also fire snap-shots at BS2, meaning that they can do their part in cleaning the skies.

 

Another unit that works wonders in conjunction with Knights is the Onager Dune Crawler. It has multiple weapon options. One option is the Neutron Laser, a long ranged small blast with S10 AP1 Concussive. This little gun can help to bust some of the heavier tanks, or at least disable them, when the Arc weapons are occupied. It also helps the Knights to handle some of the more deadly Monstrous or Gargantuan Creatures like the Wraith Lord or Wraith Knight. It has a good chance of getting a wound through to them, knocking them down to Initiative 1 due to Concussive, allowing the Knight to strike first with his Destroyer weapon and most likely kill the opponent without retaliation.

 

The next gun of interest is the Twin-Linked Heavy Phosphor Blaster. While the stats do not look as impressive, only being three shots with S6 AP3, it has the Luminagen rule, which makes up for it. If a unit suffers one or more wounds, glacing or penetrating hits, it's cover saveis reduced by 1 and all units that want to charge said unit may re-roll their charging distance. This allows Knights to shoot their deadly main guns at a reduced cover save or re-roll failed charges, which is big, seeing as failed charge could leave a Knight out of position and open to be flanked.

 

The last gun I want to mention is the Icarus Relay. It is a combination of three guns with Skyfire. It's combined fire and BS boosts that Skitarii have will allow it to take out a flyer per shooting phase, or at least make it jink. It is one of the most efficient anti-air platforms in the game.

 

However, it is not all that perfect either. Skitarii suffer from a rather low durability and need the Knights to take the hits for them. However, if an opponent directs his full attention to the Skitarii, they will not last long ont their own. This is the reason why this army combination needs to be played very aggressively so that if either IK or Skits are the focus target, the other one can bring the pain. Playing defensive can affect the outcome negatively.

One thing to help with that is the Void Shield Generator. It helps protecting you Vanguard/Rangers from anti-infantry fire until the opponent has dedicated some anti-tank fire. Keep your Knights and Walkers outside, meaning that your opponent will need to choose between clearing the Shields to shoot the infantry or shooting your AV.

 

Strengths:

Very high output

Very high pressure

Very efficient shooting

 

Weaknesses:

Low durability despite spammability

No HQ choices, potentially giving up Slay The Warlord easier

 

Recommended units:

Rangers/Vanguard with Arc Rifles

Ironstrider Ballistarii with Cognis-Autocannons

Onager Dunecrawler with Icarus Replay/Heavy Phospor Blaster/Neutron Laser

 

Example Lists:

1500pts

Skitarii Maniple

10 Vanguard - Omnispex, 3x Plasma Caliver (Warlord)

10 Vanguard - Omnispex, 3x Arc Rifle

10 Vanguard - Omnispex, 3x Arc Rifle

 

Onager Dune Crawler - Icarus Array

Onager Dune Crawler - Neutron Laser

 

Oathsworn Detachment

Knight Warden

Knight Paladin

 

another option is to drop one Arc unit and exchange the Icarus for another Neutron and use the gained points to add 3 Ironstrider Ballistarii

 

the choice to take a Warden and Paladin was because anti-tank and AP2 was pretty much covered by the Skitarii and I needed two all-rounders, who could deal with hordes, tanks or high T models equally as good and have a Destroyer melee attack

 

1850pts

Skitarii Maniple

10 Vanguard - Omnispex, 3x Plasma Caliver (Warlord)

10 Vanguard - Omnispex, 3x Arc Rifle

10 Vanguard - Omnispex, 3x Arc Rifle

 

3 Ironstriders - Cognis AC

3 Ironstriders - Cognis AC

 

Onager Dune Crawler - Neutron Laser

Onager Dune Crawler - Neutron Laser

 

Oathsworn Detachment

Knight Warden

Knight Paladin - Ironstorm Missiles

 

another option is to exchange all three Omnispex' in the army for another Ironstorm Missile Pod on the Warden

 

I took another Neutron Laser, because I now have plenty of unit that could snap-fire at flyers and I wanted to bring more firepower on the ground to increase the pressure

 

2000pts

Skitarii Maniple

10 Vanguard - 3x Arc Rifle

10 Vanguard - 3x Arc Rifle

10 Vanguard - 3x Arc Rifle

 

3 Ironstrider Ballistarii - Cognis AC

 

Onager Dune Crawler - Icarus Array

Onager Dune Crawler - Neutron Laser

 

Baronial Court

Knight Acheron (Warlord)

Knight Warden

Knight Errant

 

here I exchanged the Paladin for an Errant seeing as I have removed the Plasma Caliver unit, due to the Warlord being in the Knight Detachment now, and I only have one Neutron Laser on the ground, this I am in need of AP2

I chose the Acheron as a third Knight because its Hellstorm Flamer can easily do the job of the Paladin when it comes to killing infantry with soemwhat greater effectiveness. It also has one more Attack, thus benefitting from the WS5. But mainly, because I own one. Keeping the Paladin, adding the Errant as the third Knight and nominating the Warden as the Baron to benefit from BS5 is also legitimate. That way you still have 40 points left on upgrades or Heirlooms.

 

Note: If you have the possibility to field a Void Shield Generator, you definitely should try it out at least once. It can go a long way in protecting your infantry of played correctly.

 

Alternate Version:

Despite it's aggressive nature, the above army would still be classified as a mid-range army. There also is an aggressive version of the Knight/Skitarii alliance. Some of you may have noticed, that I only mentioned around half the units from the Codex: Skitarii, specifically those that are good at shooting. Well, now let us have a look at the close quater fighters.

 

First in line we have the melee equivalent of the Ironstrider, the Synodian Dragoon. While lacking a ranged attack (which could be bought as an upgrade, but I would generally advice against it), these walkers are 10pts cheaper and can take advantage of the three additional inches while running and charging, allowing them to keep up with Knights and easily get a charge off by T2. On the charge they sport impressive four S8 attacks at I6, which grant additonal hits on a roll of 6 to hit, making them very reliable vehicle killers. However, they can bring down close to anything by just drowning it in wounds. These guys make a very solid flanking force and back-field hunters while Knight march up the middle.

 

The next unit of interest are the Sicarian Infiltrators. These bad boys are able to Infiltrate on top of their Scout move. Their default load-out is somewhat sub-par compared to their alternate weapons, which include a S2 Shred 5 shot pistol and S6 melee weapon that generates additional hits, much like the Dragoons. These guys are able to drown a lot of enemies in wounds, making the lack of AP close to irrelevant. S6 is also very capable of damaging vehicles. Infiltrators also bring an aura, that reduces the effectiveness of shooting and melee of affected units within 6".

Unfortunately, these guys are not very tough, being only 2W T3 with FnP. In combination with the threat that comes from them, do not expect them to survive very long. But remember, every gun aimed at these guys is one gun less on your Knight and other advancing forces.

There is also another Sicarian version, the Ruststalkers, but I find them inferior in this army compared to the Infiltrators. While somewhat more effect in combat and equipped with grenades that is a mix between Haywire and a Frag Grenade, they lack the versatility of the former.

 

To support those units, I would recommend taking two units of Vanguard with three Arc Rifles each to fill your mandatory Troops slots and get some ranged anti-tank onto the board.

While this army lacks anti-air, it is generally fast enough to be in the opponents deployment zone by the time those come on.

 

Out of the two Skitarii versions I have convered here, I consider this more to be more fun to play, although less effective on the board when facing other high-end builds. But do not let that stop you. Always remember, it is the player, not the army.

 

Strengths:

High pressure

High melee prowess

 

Weaknesses:

Real damage only from T2 and onwards due to the need to get into melee

Less cost effective than the shooting version, due to high risk high reward units like Infiltrators and Dragoons

 

Recommended units:

Sicarian Infiltrators

Skitarii Vanguard

Synodian Dragoons

 

Example lists:

(work in progress)

 

http://i.imgur.com/ifppoFs.png

Back to the top

Edited May 18, 2015 by Immersturm

[CommodusXIII]

would people rather take a gallant and 4 knights (total), and some upgrades/heirlooms, or no gallant, but only 3 knights, some heirlooms and upgrades?

 

I'd rather go with the latter.

 

Personally, the Gallant would only come in handy when fighting another Knight army or something else with Super-Heavy vehicles - Stompas, Lord of Skulls, etc.  Even then it would only be to have the additional Knight, with an assault focus, that I can throw at it.  Otherwise, the other Knights (barring the Crusader) are capable enough in assault and can hold their own at range without needing the additional carapace weapon tacked on.

 

In your example, I would much rather run three Knights (2 Paladins and an Errant, or 1 Paladin, 1 Warden and an Errant) with Mark of the Omnissiah on the Warlord.  The rest of the points would be filled with a small allied contingent to cover some of the Knights' weaknesses.  Skitarii, perhaps with an ADL, to sit on a backfield objective or provide additional anti-Flyer defense.  A Culexus Assassin to distract psykers.  Things that either can do things that the Knights can't, or to distract my opponent for a turn or two.

[Charlo]

Genuinely quite like the idea of the Gallant formation with icarus upgrades.

 

Shoot flyers/ skimmers, stomp guys, mince units and throw stuff around.

 

Would be hilarious against a speed freak army, charging trucks and throwing strength 5+ pie plates everywhere.

[jeffersonian000]

Still trying to wrap my head around why hurling a scrawny Wraithlord hits at a higher strength (S8) than a Land Raider (S7).

 

SJ

[CommodusXIII]

It was probably the easiest way to balance it.  If a flat armor value was used for Hurl, every vehicle would result in a S10 pie plate by default.  Then we'd have people complaining about the number of S10 pie plates being tossed around.  You'd also have Sentinels being tossed for the same strength as a Land Raider, and be right back at your original statement.

Edited May 13, 2015 by CommodusXIII

[Vel'Cona]

Just like we have people complaining about the amount of D weaponry being tossed around? 

 

Dunno, just feels like an unnecessary bit of "balancing" that could have made for some really interesting strategies.  It'd definitely be a strong argument for the Gallant formation (whatever it's called), though I suppose some are already arguing for it in either case.

[CommodusXIII]

Yeah, I'd rather not get lumped in with Eldar as an escalating arms race.  Just because they might possibly have some more-or-less overpowered options doesn't mean that we should.  I don't need that kind of help to win games.