Tactica: Imperial Knights (Blood Angels and Cult done)

[jeffersonian000]

You can't really go wrong with running one of each, as they compliment each other so well. Out of preference, I'm preferring the Warden as my generalist, with the Errant and Thermal Crusader to fill out the court, but that's just me.

 

SJ

[mcpolle]

Immersturm, great work, am enjoying this as much as I did your work on the SW page, great to see so much work going into this.

 

I am playing the Baronial court, and am using an Errant, Warden and a Crusader, all with the rocket pods, and the Warden is the Warlord, with IWND.

 

Am having great fun with them. lovely models. Just a shame I cannot play them in the Kiel cup :-(

 

Polle

[Frater Cornelius]

Immersturm, great work, am enjoying this as much as I did your work on the SW page, great to see so much work going into this.

 

I am playing the Baronial court, and am using an Errant, Warden and a Crusader, all with the rocket pods, and the Warden is the Warlord, with IWND.

 

Am having great fun with them. lovely models. Just a shame I cannot play them in the Kiel cup :-(

 

Polle

 

Well, I already threw a massive rant about how the German TOs are massive morons. It is not just Kiel Cup but also the German Cup (Deutsche Meisterschaften). I am so pissed that I am close to selling off my Knights in favour of something else.

[mcpolle]

Yeah must be infuriating, to have such lovely models, only not to be able to play them in tournies:-(

 

I feel for ya homie.

 

At least here in DK, they allow them. So I get to play em, which is ok, as they are a good anti Eldar option, which is so, the thing here at the moment.

 

Am guessing Eldar will win in Kiel ,but that is a whole another story, back to the Knights, and keep up the good work.

 

Polle

[Kriegsmacht]

Still think that's really dumb I just don't get it. I hope you'll continue this project though I really enjoy reading it and learning from it. :)

[Frater Cornelius]

Still think that's really dumb I just don't get it. I hope you'll continue this project though I really enjoy reading it and learning from it.

 

Well, I just listened to a Podcast with the head of Germany's top 40k site, a power gamer and the TO of one of the Kiel Cup. For former two do not mind Knights, but the Kiel TO admits to be a conservative kind when it comes to any D weapon. However, they all agreed that what happens if we ban an entire Codex, then ban three units from the Eldar Codex and whatever may come next. No one wants that so now they are looking into compromises. I guess that is a start. I am still a bit bitter though.

Nevertheless, I will continue with this guide. Even if Banhammer Land is a bit slow, other people still play with Knights and want to read it :P

[mcpolle]

Have a knight question for you, was playing today, and it came up with LOS and how far the knights could actually trace to targets, the only thing we could find, was as a walker, the weapon has 45% LOS from the weapon. Now this might sound ok, but when you have a big machine like that, and with several weapons on it, its actually quite hard with only 45 degrees, to actually target things,

 

Am I missing something here?? Or is it they really have 45 degrees, from the weapon??

 

Polle

[CommodusXIII]

Hull-mounted weapons have a 45-deg arc. That includes the chest-mounted heavy stubber or meltagun. For anything else, I thought that you go by range of movement the model. The arms can rotate about 270-deg and the carapace a full 360-deg. Sponsons and turrets behave the same way.

[jeffersonian000]

7th Ed has an odd set of rules for Walkers that seem to indicate Walkers can only shoot at things directly I front of it, by not referencing the standard vehicle rules which assume weapons pivot. RAW goes either way. Strict RAW implies no pivot, common sense RAW implies pivoting.

 

SJ

[CommodusXIII]

Even beyond pivoting, the arms themselves physically rotate at the elbow in the same manner as a sponson. The vast majority of Walkers do not have this feature, hence the confusion.

[Scribe]

 

Immersturm, great work, am enjoying this as much as I did your work on the SW page, great to see so much work going into this.

 

I am playing the Baronial court, and am using an Errant, Warden and a Crusader, all with the rocket pods, and the Warden is the Warlord, with IWND.

 

Am having great fun with them. lovely models. Just a shame I cannot play them in the Kiel cup :-(

 

Polle

 

Well, I already threw a massive rant about how the German TOs are massive morons. It is not just Kiel Cup but also the German Cup (Deutsche Meisterschaften). I am so pissed that I am close to selling off my Knights in favour of something else.

 

 

I was actually informed that Knights are blocked from the next local event as well, emailed the TO and was told that last year there where just too many complaints to make it worth while. As I just dropped $800 on FW Knights...I'm a bit displeased with the choice. :]

[Vel'Cona]

On the one hand, I can play devil's advocate and see why TOs don't want IK (or any Super-Heavies, honestly) in their events.  They're a very different gameplay element and a sort of built-in meta breaker.  For players that are still stuck in 5th edition (as I was for the entirety of 6th edition), it's tough to accept that the game has changed/grown/moved on in a new direction, one that is further from competitive balance than ever before.  IK are probably the most obvious offenders, but Wraithknights share a similar issue and therefore garner just as much consternation (if not more, because of how beardy several aspects of the Eldar army are).

 

At the same time, telling players they can't use the models that they build, paint, and write storylines for (I'm sure we all do at least a little of this) because those models are seen to be a problem in the competitive scene has huge ripple effects on the community.  Since GW takes no part in the competitive balance of their game, TOs are left with the unenviable task of trying to give all their players a "fair" shot at winning.  If enough players complain about a certain type of model/rule/formation/etc., many TOs fall back on the mighty Banhammer to attempt to restore order to their events.  While I would agree that banning certain models sets a dangerous precedent, I can understand why this action is taken.  Honestly, I think the best answer is moderation; the best form of balance IMO is to limit the problem units, rather than outright discard them.  Some of the better rules I've seen include only allowing a single LoW, giving scenario bonuses to players that don't use a LoW, and restricting the total number of formations and detachments (I think 2 is a fine number for most tournies).

[Lord Ragnarok]

Could we please move the banning of the IK's to another thread?

[jeffersonian000]

The new Cult Mechanicus codex is adding a decurion style formation that includes Skitarii and Knights in a single detachment. This is the first example of a codex pulling units from other codecii to fill its formation, and it's going to give TO's stress induced nightmares. Gone are the days when a unit can be banned without banning an entire codex. Not including Imperial Knights while allowing WraithKnights is not "balance".

 

Ironically, I'm still waiting for an all Knight army to win a major tournament. Until that day, no one can truly say that Knights are OP. All you can say is that you are either prepared to deal with them, or you are not.

 

SJ

[librisrouge]

ITC used the fact that knight armies run "above average" as their justification for laying rules smack down on them. Ignore that none of the top 8 armies last year had a knight, iirc.

 

As far as this topic being in a tactics article, it makes sense to me. Knight players need to be aware of all the things going against them winning, both on and off the table, if they want a fair chance at success.

[CommodusXIII]

At a point, though, it becomes less a discussion of tactics and more whining about others whining.  Let's keep things constructive here.

[jeffersonian000]

It's not a QQ topic, it's very on target. No point writing a tactica when the army in question won't see table time. Just look at all those FW tactics that don't exist.

 

Besides, being informed on what you can and can't do let's you speak intelligently in your local meta when the questions are raised. Having a good, logical, and well thought out argument for inclusion is half the battle. The only half is not justifying the inclusion by being a dick.

 

SJ

[CommodusXIII]

That's all fine and good - like I said, keep the discussion pointed in that direction.  Over half of this page has nothing to do with actual tactics.  You can start a second thread discussing tournament organizers if you wish.

Edited May 24, 2015 by CommodusXIII

[Lucumon]

http://gallery.kg4cyx.net/var/albums/Macros-and-such/cat%20-%20i%20love%20this%20thread%20so%20much-2.jpg?m=1307639941

 

I just ordered a Knight Crusader... this is the best thread I've read today.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Ok immersturm, the cult mech codex is out. (Looks at watch) I'm expecting a mechanicus allies section for the tactica by the end of the day (folds arms and taps foot impatiently) :) Edited May 30, 2015 by Lord Ragnarok

[Frater Cornelius]

I am still pissed that my SM section will soon be invalidated

 

I am planning to do BA and SW until today and tomorrow as well as a few example lists. Cult should be in there at the end of next week. I want to get a few games done with Skits + Cult + IK Crusader before I say anything

Edited May 30, 2015 by Immersturm

[Kriegsmacht]

Appreciate the work you're putting into this Immersturm. Can't wait to read the updates. :tu:

[Frater Cornelius]

Space Wolves

When looking at an army as potential allies, I ask myself what said army can do that no other army can. So, what is it that SW bring that no other SM faction can? It is bringing a bunch of angry hairy men riding on angry hairy wolves. More specifically, the units that are of interest here are Thunderwolf-related, namely Thunderwolf-mounted Lords, Iron Priests and Thunderwolf Cavalry. The Champions of Fenris book is your best friend in this case. It allows you to avoid the Troops tax and focus on the units that matter by moving your mandatory slots to the Elite section. The result is a very aggressive and melee-focused army.

Please note that it is possible to play a Drop Pod army with SW, just as any other SM faction. However, Drop Pods have already been covered before. This section is dedicated to builds that are unique to SW. It does not mean they are better.

 

The bread and butter of this army would be the Iron Priest. Mount him on a Thunderwolf and depending on points add Cyber Wolves to him to act as ablative wounds. They are not slowed by terrain and have the ability to move 12". This means they can easily keep up with an Imperial Knight. Being Tech Marines, they can also restore Hull-Points to the Knights. Even though they only succeed on a 5+, when you have a bunch of Iron Priests riding behind your IK, it can prolog its life, securing the charge.

The Priests are also able to join other units like Thunderwolf Cavalry and tank a few shots with their Wolves and 2+ Armour Save.

In melee these guys are no slouches either. They bring a Thunderhammer and Servo-Arm to a knife fight. In some cases, these guys are just as threatening as a Knight to enemy units in close combat.

 

Now that you have a decent hammer and support character for your Knights and rest of the SW contingent, time to look at the buffer to fill the space. Option one is the infamous Thunderwolf Cavalry. They are fast, resilient and bring one hell of a punch in melee. With some Stormshields and an Iron Priest inside, they can be made very resilient to AP3 and AP2 fire as well. They complement a Knight well because the opponent is unlikely to bring enough firepower to remove both a Knight and a TWC unit. If one of those gets into close combat, the enemy lines will be broken. Essentially, this army works on overloading the enemy to compensate for the lack of T1 punch.

 

A cheaper alterantive to TWC are the Fenrisian Wolves. Where TWC are strong and tough, these guys are numerous and cheap. If you do not have the points to bring TWC to support your Priests and Knights, these guys make an excellent buffer unit. They can bog down the enemy in close combat or occupy objectives. They can also be used to bait Overwatch or serve as ablative wounds for your Priests. They lack punch in melee as they only bring S4 attacks without AP, however, they should suffice at lower point games.

 

You now have Knights, Iron Priests, TWC and/or Wolves. The final piece of the puzzle is the HQ. Here you have the option between a beat-stick or a force-multiplier. The melee monster would simply be a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf with a 2+ Armour Save and whatever goodies you see fit. I like him to have either Krakenbone Sword + Stormshield or Fist + Claw + Fellclaw's Teeth. Go nuts with this one. His advantage is that he hits like a freight train and is able to tank wounds fairly well. He alone can decimate entire units. However, he does little else.

The force-multiplying option would his the hairiest and angriest of all Wolves, Harald Deathwolf. Although he has a 3+ Invulnerable Save, he only has a 3+ Armour Save, making him far less reliable tanking AP3 or worse. He also has a Frost Axe, which wastes his impressive Initiative of 5. On the other hand, he grants all Thunderwolves and Fenrisian Wolves Stubborn and has a 12" bubble that grants the aforementioned units Ld10 and Furious Charge, the latter even works outside of 12" if they start the assault phase from within the bubble.

Both have their merits, but generally I would recommend taking Harald when using Fenrisian Wolves, due to their mediocre Leadership, and stick with the close combat Lord in all other scenarios due to his tanking prowess and insane melee performace. However, the choice is yours. They both enhance the army in their own way. Thereis no right answer here.

 

Lastly, I want to mention the Stormwolf and Stormfang, the two Space Wolves fliers. They may be prohibitively expensive compared to other options, but they bring a stellar performance against both air and ground.

The Stormwolf is usually seen as superior, and with good reason. All of its four guns, two Multimeltas (which you should buy), a Lascannon and a Hellfrost Cannon, are twin-linked and all of them do an excellent job killing vehicles and monstrous creatures. Take one of these if flying units or transports worry you. You can safely ignore the transport capacity, seeing as carrying troops will not benefit Knights in any way.

The Stormfang is more expensive when using the same load-out and while its Hellfrost Destructor is more powerful that the smaller equivalent on the Stormwolf, it is not twin-linked and has the same performance against AV12 or less, only showing more effectiveness against AV13 or higher due to the Lance Special Rule. However, this flyer does a better job killing hordes. The Destructor can fire a S6 AP3 Large Blast and the Fang has access to TL-Heavy Bolters as part of its stock equipment. However, handling hordes can be done very well by other, cheaper and more universal means like TWC or Knight Guns. I recommend the Stormwolf over the Fang for Imperial Knights.

 

Strengths:

• Extreme pressure

• High durability

• Excellent melee capabilities

• Solid anti-air

 

Weaknesses:

• Very little to no shooting

• Very low model-count due to high cost

• Weak to well executed Alpha Strike

 

Recommended units:

• Stormwolf

• Iron Priests with Cyber Wolves

• Thunderwolf Cavalry

• Fenrisian Wolves

• Wolf Lord or Harald Deathwolf

 

Example lists:

(working on it)

 

Alternate Versions:

There are a few alternative builds with Champions of Fenris. While I do not consider them competitive, I still want to mention them in case people are interested.

 

The first one is a complete Terminator Army. Givent their ability to access Drop Pods, Combi-Weapons, Melee Weapons and free Stormshields, these guys are a force to recon with. Dropping them into trouble spots to remove key units and they rampage through the enemy lines is an appealing prospect for many of us. These guys do that job remarkable well seeing as you save a lot of points on free Stormshields.

This army would function akin to a Drop Pod Alpha Strike army,but with fewer models but potentially higher survivability and much higher melee prowess.

 

The second one is the March of the Ancients. Since SW have a Dreadnought HQ and the supplement allows you to take Elites as your mandatory choices, you can play an army consisting entirely of Dreadnoughts for the maximum amount of Heavy Metal on the board.

You can make a healthy mix of Dreads walking up the board with the Knights and Dread arriving via pod. This strategy renders all kinds of small arms fire and anti-infantry weapons completely useless. Above all else, this army is a blast to look at. So if you are a fan of big bots and enjoy alternative and risky tactics, this is right up your alley.

It is also possible to add a few Iron Priests in here for additional pressure and field repairs.

 

Example lists:

(working on it)

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/ifppoFs.png

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[Just4uCupCake]

I am still pissed that my SM section will soon be invalidated

 

I am planning to do BA and SW until today and tomorrow as well as a few example lists. Cult should be in there at the end of next week. I want to get a few games done with Skits + Cult + IK Crusader before I say anything

 

I am anxious about the BA review I am using blood angels with an ally of my new kit I fully magnetized with all options available *first magnetization everyay * I plan On using a Crusader In my 2k game against greyknights and I plan on the thermal cannon and Flakk cannon because he runs 2 Storm ravens and lots of termies. 

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, this review is more about how BA help a Knight and not how a Knight fits with BA. Hence these lists will include 2 IK minimum. If you are wondering how an IK might fit into your BA force, you can post your thoughts here and maybe we can help you.