Bukimimaru Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 First off, I don’t want this to turn into a "which is better; Scouts or Marines" thread because that's been done to death and after using both units in a load of games I really like them both for different reasons. Like many of us, I was sorely disappointed to find that Assault Marines were no longer a troop choice in the new 'Dex. A vast majority of our BA community agreed that Tac marines were not worth the points and we would all be better off taking min-units of scouts as out troop "tax". I ended up buying a few of the new BA TAC kits for display purposes but never used them for months. Over the last few weeks I decided to try and run 2 full TAC squads, one with flamer / heavy flamer / combi-flamer in a Rhino and the other Melta / Multimelta / Combi-melta in a Rhino. At first I was unimpressed; they cost so much more than scouts and they rarely made their points back, but the more I used them, the more I began to realise just how useful they are. For the sake of having all my bases covered, I've also got a Plasma / Plasmacannon / Combi-Plama but I haven’t used them yet. Admittedly, if you are not playing Maelstrom rules, your mileage may vary, but when it comes to grabbing and holding objective and still being able to kill blobs / elites / vehicle, the Tac marines are leaps and bounds ahead of scouts. The versatility of being able to combat squad up / jump in and out of a super-charged rhino combined with the better-than-most 3+ armour and double tapping S4 bolters are so great. Don't like Rhino's? Drop-podding your Marines onto objectives / choke points can be really great. I'm not suggesting dropping them right behind enemy lines, we'll leave the suicide sqadding to the much cheaper Assault Marines, but being able to can a 10 man strong power-armour unit into a strong tactical position turn one is easily overlooked. It's a shame that Razorbacks are so expensive at the moment, so I can't say I've had much luck taking smaller Tac squads in a razorback. maybe some of you guys have had more success? The biggest complaint I see time and time again is survivability. "they'll never make it to combat" I read. "you cant get them in rage" I read. In my last few games I've noticed that no one really wants to shoot at Tac marines. When I've got a Dread and a Melta Squad on my opponents back line, a Death Company and a Libby/Assault Squad jumping up into their face and Grav-Bikers zooming up a flank, the last thing my opponent wants to waste shots at is a "harmless objective holder". It's easy to forget that my "harmless objective holder" is in a superfast Rhino and can shoot 2 flametemplates out the top hatch. As with every unit in our 'Dex, they only work in conjunction with other units, and some list will work better with TAC whilst others will work better with Scouts. TLDR; just because Tac squads aren’t "exiting", doesn’t mean they don't have a legit place in a BA force. Plus with the new BA TAC kits, we have some of the sweetest looking basic marines in the game. Anyone else had luck using Tac Squads? Anyone tied using them and found them to be a waste of time? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spagunk Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I had a squad of 5 tac's with meltagun take down an orc bomber. Was pretty sweet as they were within 12 inches so we got a lot of bullets flying. Probably not a good example but definitely a plus since you can't get meltaguns in a scout squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4038305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sans Mercy Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I almost always bring at least one squad and I like their performance. Once they led a devastating alphastrike from a pod with flamers against some Hive guard and termagants, and then heroically tied up a genesteeler brood for roughly 2.5 turns, all while inflicting casualties on the brood. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4038307 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucumon Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 10 dudes rapid-firing from an objective as enemies charge in is pretty good for holding objectives... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4038320 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paikis Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 It is interesting (and somewhat refreshing) to read this post. The overwhelming consensus on BA troops choices seems to be that you should pay the "troops tax" with two basic, un-upgraded squads of five Scouts and call it done. Occasionally I'll read about giving the Scout Sergeant a Power Fist, or maybe paying for sniper rifles but Tacticals seem like they're in the bad books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4038333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucumon Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 ...two basic, un-upgraded squads of five Scouts... In Maelstorm games, my scouts are my highest scoring/point unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4038338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bukimimaru Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 This may be a little crazy, but in my last few games I've been taking Scouts and Tac Marines. My sniper/camo-cloak scouts are an awesome objecting holding unit, able to infitrate and scout onto a usful objective and then either try to snipe out an enemy Charatcer or go to ground and become very difficult to budge. They are, however, not very mobile once the intial objective has been claimed and discarded. My Tac marines, when loaded up into one of our fast Rhinos, are great at moving between objective to objective really quickly, perfect for Maelstrom where you might need to go from one board edge to the other and back again by the end of the game. Taking more than the bare minimus troop "tax" might be Herecy for some, but since I've increased mt Toop usage my win/loss ratio has swung into the positives for the first time since the new dex dropped. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4038354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Closet Skeleton Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I always used to take 2 tactical squads when I could pay 50 points to give both of them 4+ Feel no Pain, so I'm coming from the opposite perspective. I'm more worried that my tactical squads have been nerfed, not that I have to take them but I have no experience with the current codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4038431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bukimimaru Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 I always used to take 2 tactical squads when I could pay 50 points to give both of them 4+ Feel no Pain, so I'm coming from the opposite perspective. I'm more worried that my tactical squads have been nerfed, not that I have to take them but I have no experience with the current codex. I felt exactly the same. I think some of us are still in mourning and disregarding perfectly viable untis because they arn't as good as they used to be. They may not be as good as they were in a past edition, but that doesnt automatically make them worthless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4038439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just4uCupCake Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I play a weekly game against nids with my uncle roughly 1500-2500 depending on how long we feel like playing but I run two to three tac squads with fast rhinos one squad serg with PS/HF a heavy flamer and flamer in the second squad I have Serg with power claw bolt pistol a Heavy flamer and Melta then my last squad I have A multimelta and flamer and serg with two hand flamers. They work really well especially going into a horde of gaunts with two templates from inside a rhino. The reason i try and put meltas on some is he always likes running 6-9 carnifexs so if he sends a brood my way then I can get one almost guaranteed wound. I have quite a good amount of success with them against nids. But sadly I havent had a different opponent in a few months due to my local shop closing and now im searching for a new home to spread my wings. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4038454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Melta / Multi Melta and Plasma / Plasma Cannon are really bad combinations, plasma especially The MM and the PC really dont belong outside devestators. Maybe 10 in a pod, melta, combi melta in one combat squad, heavy flamer in the other? I quite like them, my only concern is Rhinos suck (I have 9, they suck) and razors are worse. I have a few lists using lots in pods, but havent gotten round to buying 6 more pods And a HF/F flamer tac squad is considerably more costly than an FC/HF Fury. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4038695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calnus Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Aside from the HF/Flamer loadout, has anyone had any particular success with Tactical weapon choices? I've been playtesting plasma/PC and not too happy with it (2 games = 4 suicides!), and next on my list is to test out the HB because there was one in the new tac sprue. I've been running 2 squads in pods since the new codex dropped, and so far I've been pretty happy with my flamers. I've actually been running a PF sarge with them, because he tends to be one of 2-3 marines still alive after the inevitable retaliation, and then he goes hunting on turn 2. Its quite fun when my opponent forgets that 1 dude in the crater has a powerfist and kills his 5-man backfield squads on the charge. No one really counts the tiny squad, but the sergeant can still kick ass if he finds a weak enough target in melee. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4038737 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hairojin Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I've had some success with a plasmacannon, flamer, combiflamer squad in a rhino. I always combat squad them, PC goes on a backfield objective, either from the start or gets dropped off by the rhino. The other combat squad goes forward to take a second objective. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4038760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadDice0809 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Run a full heavy flamer/flamer/hand flamer drop pod in combo with either a fragisio or Cassor. A full Tac squad soaks up a lot of fire power that lets my Death Company and Sanguinary Guard close the distance unmolested Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4038851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood & Thunder Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I have been playing with razorbacks and 5 man tac squads. 2 have missile launchers and one has a heavy flamer. They work rather well as long as I'm not playing Eldar or necrons. But i have been getting an itch to field more tactic squads as anything we have that should go into combat is just going to suicide itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4039073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Caine 24th Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I dislike the idea of a minimum "troops tax" in the sense that it sort of says I'm only taking a particular unit so that I can get the units I want. It could be true that I'm not being realistic, but I'd like to have all my units contributing to the battle in a meaningful way. I've used multiple tacticals in pods with varying degrees of success. With combat squads and some wargear you can hold off a corner of the table if you like. Likewise tacticals can balance other units in pods--like helping a furioso by killing enemy infantry or a like transport. Combat squads also help confuse target priority. I've really been considering a missile launcher or a plasma. Even though it won't shoot that first turn drop, the enemy will be forced to consider his side and rear armor if he wants to advance into midfield or my deployment zone. And maybe that'll divert some fire from what the enemy should really be shooting at. For me I've had too many problems with flying hive tyrants to use rhinos and even my predators have a hard time (topic for another time though). Yet, reading this has me thinking about dusting them off again. I think rhinos can really provide cover and shielding from crazy alpha strikes. I also am ashamed to admit that it had been so long since I used tacticals coming into 7th ed. that I forgot they had pistols. So as it turns out, pistol shots and furious charge actually isn't terrible in assault. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4039164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Melta / Multi Melta and Plasma / Plasma Cannon are really bad combinations, plasma especially The MM and the PC really dont belong outside devestators. I disagree. My single plasma cannon has caught so many deepstriking terminators unawares, it's not funny anymore. D 4x plasma cannon dev squad becomes priority target #1. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4039306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bukimimaru Posted May 12, 2015 Author Share Posted May 12, 2015 Melta / Multi Melta and Plasma / Plasma Cannon are really bad combinations, plasma especially The MM and the PC really dont belong outside devestators. I can't say I really agree with this. A week or so back a I had a Melta / Multimelta / combimelta Tac squad zipping around the board grabbing objectives. My opponent had a big scary Forgeworld varient Defiler come stoping ofer and dropped some horredous flame template on the squad and killed them all but the Milti-melta. he passed his leadership, moved to within melta range, successfully snap fired his multi-melta and one-shot punked the defiler. Just yesterday I had the same model combat-squadded and camped on a midfield objective. A Skitari crab-tank came stomping over and blew up the rhino he was hiding behind, giving him a nice clear shot to blow the crab-tank off the table. I've had more games with my Multi-melta tac squad where he has been usful than games he has been redundant. I cant say the same for my Plasma-squad, I havnt used them yet. Aside from the HF/Flamer loadout, has anyone had any particular success with Tactical weapon choices? Yeah! see above. ^_^ I also am ashamed to admit that it had been so long since I used tacticals coming into 7th ed. that I forgot they had pistols. So as it turns out, pistol shots and furious charge actually isn't terrible in assault. Wait... what? Tac squads have pistols? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4039313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadman Wade Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I always take one 10-man squad with triple flamers, and so far they earned their points back every time. Great against hordes, decent against MEQ, and with FC they are decent in assault. As for meltas and plasmas, assault squads are better. 5-man assault squad with two meltas in rhino costs 20 points less than five tacticals with one melta in rhino. Tacticals can hit harder on a turn they disembark from rhino or drop pod, but MSU assault squads are much more cost-effective. Edit: when I'm saying "great" or "decent", I'm not comparing tacticals to necron or eldar :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4039342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bukimimaru Posted May 12, 2015 Author Share Posted May 12, 2015 I think it's easy to forget just how good Bolters are. I always take them for granted because they are our bread and butter shooting, but they are really, really good. Assualt Marines are cheaper points wise and for an assaulty unit they are great, but when you want a unit to secure an area (an objective, a choke point, a building, whatever) I'd take a Tac squad with bolters everytime. If I know I'm going to need a unit to get somewhere quick and then stay there without budging, a Tac squad is a legitimatly solid choice. After all, we only get a limited amount of Fast attack slots, and with Meltacide squads, Bikes, Landspeeders, and droppods all being viable we dont always have the chance to take those trusty 3xMelta assault squads. The chances of us running out of troop slots are pretty minimul, so if you need more Dakka, the lowly Tac squad shouldnt be dismissed so easily. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4039350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Run a full heavy flamer/flamer/hand flamer drop pod in combo with either a fragisio or Cassor. A full Tac squad soaks up a lot of fire power that lets my Death Company and Sanguinary Guard close the distance unmolested This is what I hope to be running soon. Flame on! Between 4 templates, grenade blast and rapid bolters can cause a lot of wounds on anything. If you survive thier turn, it's pistols, more templates and some tasty strength 5 charges. Almost makes me want to put a power sword on the Sarge just to cement the flexibility role. I think what people forget about Tacs is that they really can handle anything decently well. Clmbat squadding the above could also work quite well leaving 5 bolter dudes to screen and rapid things while the flames go off and charge more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4039363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bukimimaru Posted May 12, 2015 Author Share Posted May 12, 2015 Combat squadding the above could also work quite well leaving 5 bolter dudes to screen and rapid things while the flames go off and charge more. Combat squads are seriously useful. I played against an Astra Militarum / Skittari list on Sunday, I left the Melta / Multi-melta / Combi-melta guys in the Rhino to zoom up and grab a midfield objective, and left 5 regular bolter guys at the back to hold my home objective. My scouts were busy Outflanking/scouting midfield, so it was really helpful to be able to leave a few guys behind without having to waste the whole squad for a few turns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4039373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 What people keep overlooking that they are still T4 3+Sv dudes. See it as you want, but dislodging 10 Dudes like that isn't at times without dedicating firepower of them that is better spent elsewhere. And that is the reason why I like Tacs. They are tough to shift and every gun firing at them gives your DC or whatever else you have more time to close the gap. But you can not ignore them either. Every member has a Krak Grenade and they will take a heavy toll on your armour. I would never use them as my main damage dealers, I like them because they are boots. This is why Red Scorpion Tacs are my favourite due to free FnP. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4039379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Yeah red scorp Tacs are something I'm seriously considering as a mainstay in my force as aggressive objective takers. Give them an Allied Fast Rhino and they can really do work. Plus Loth is a beast and complements Mephiston and others nicely. I can see it now... Red Scorp Tacs, BA flavour units and Chariots counting at TWC, the dream :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4039389 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadDice0809 Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Also make the Sarge a Veteran and give him a power sword.... it gets expensive. But the model looks good. Makes killing those back field campers almost too easy.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307446-a-deeper-look-at-the-tactical-squad/#findComment-4039395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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