Warlord Titan tactics

[shandwen]

"Can't be locked in combat"- doesn't matter if it has no possible way to move due to enemy models surrounding it. And stomp happens after your movement so a deep striking prime list can corner it anywhere unless its bubblewrapped, in which case you have that many more weapons against it.

[Slips]

"Can't be locked in combat"- doesn't matter if it has no possible way to move due to enemy models surrounding it. And stomp happens after your movement so a deep striking prime list can corner it anywhere unless its bubblewrapped, in which case you have that many more weapons against it.

It doesnt need to move. It needs to Shoot. And being unable to be locked in combat means that anything you would usually send at it to Tarpit it would be ignored as they feebly attempt to deal negligible damage to it while it just continues laying down S:D Templates on the rest of the map. Hell, it can even ignore Invisibility by targeting a Building/Terrain Feature to shoot at instead of the unit and still hit them indirectly since almost all its weapons are giant templates.

 

And, again, it probably wont die to non-titan CC since everything is either hitting it on 6s or 5's if its a GC or SHW on top of 30hp and Av15 Front with 6 void shields and the added bonus of being immune to Melta and Haywire.

 

You're better off trying to tarpit a Knight 'cuz at least it wont be able to continue shooting and crush the tarpit with 5" stomps.

 

I keep saying it: Pop the Void Shields with S7+ Shooting then lay into it with S:D shooting. Anything else is not worth the effort.

 

Edit: forgot to mention it has a 5+ invulnerable to boot.

[v6v77]

How do we feel about hitting it with 6 rapiers with thudd guns (Thats 24 S8 sunder shots) and then a few sicaran venators. Should take down its voids and any pens cause snap shots even on super heavies.

 

You probably dont need to destroy it. Just take it out of the equation?

[Slips]

How do we feel about hitting it with 6 rapiers with thudd guns (Thats 24 S8 sunder shots) and then a few sicaran venators. Should take down its voids and any pens cause snap shots even on super heavies.

 

You probably dont need to destroy it. Just take it out of the equation?

Pray you have a lot of Venators / Cerberus' to do so because the relative short range of the Neutron Lasers vs the Warlords multi-table spanning weapon options means you're already starting on the back foot.

 

You'd also do well to not forget the rest of the armies in play alongside a Warlord. Venators are still pretty squishy vehicles, after all.

 

Its why I say taking down a Warlord is best left to Titan vs Titan action.

 

 

If you dont want to use a Titan to take one down, I'd use Flyers since at most its shooting its 2 Ardex Lascannons at your Flyers and even then only Snapshooting at Bs2 isnt amazing.

And you can probably rule out the Warlord being equipped with Vulcan Mega-Bolters since there are better, more devastating options to take.

 

Hell, even the Stormbird with Unlimited S:D Orbital Bombardments that scatter full distance would be a better bet than ground-based equivalents since its an Av14 Flyer with 12HP and Voidshields.

[shandwen]

Probably the strongest unit against it would be a mess of kraken penetrator lightnings. All they need is one armwd with something to drop some void shields and the pens will happen. A warlord is to big to effectively move, and so many points that it really has to live and die on its own. It seems either flyers or getting up close with armorbane weapons and invulnerable saves are the only non-titan ways to touch it.

[Slips]

Probably the strongest unit against it would be a mess of kraken penetrator lightnings. All they need is one armwd with something to drop some void shields and the pens will happen. A warlord is to big to effectively move, and so many points that it really has to live and die on its own. It seems either flyers or getting up close with armorbane weapons and invulnerable saves are the only non-titan ways to touch it.

I wouldnt place any bets on invulnerable saves on ground-based units since all it needs to roll is a 6 and it ignores them whether through Stomp or the D Table.

 

And remember, only the carapace weapons cannot be fired within 24" unless its a Flyer/FMC/FGC/etc. Meaning the nastiest weapons (usually the arm mounted ones) can usually still shoot at you even if you get up close.

 

Flyers and Titans seem like the safest bets.

 

 

Also, as an aside, how many Shooting Weapons (missiles or otherwise) have Armorbane besides Kraken Penetrators? And how many hullpoints would you be able to strip per Primaris-Lightning loaded for bare?

 

Another thing of note is that its not immune to the Lance USR.

[Hesh Kadesh]

you get invulns against strength d don't you?

 

IN regards to not getting trapped in combat, don't forget you've got a pair of audex mauler defense cannons with bs2 overwatch as well, which should drop 3-4 MEQ's while they charge in.

 

And not being lock in combat means that you deplo. The stupid good double Saturynyne Flamers, charge back in (3 base,+1 two melee weapons, +1 for charging gives you 5 Machine Destroyer Strength D attacks) and stomp away.

 

A Primaris would strip best case scenario, 6HP per loadout, but they have to roll to hit (bs5, sm crew and strafing run? afb), require a 6+ (out of 36 possible results there are 10 which aren't, so around 30% chance to pen) and avoid the invulnerable save, so it is nearer 3 hp from missiles. lascannons, tl or otherwise would likely bounce off.

 

Darkfire would be a decent chance, especially if you can outflank them to keep them out of the LoS, but you'll have to time it right. YOu can get 4 units of praevian or castellax in a list (2x praevian, forge Lord hq with cortex, and an allied fl with cortex), which with bs5 gets you 40 shots; 33-34 hits (more with preferred enemy). With a 5+ to glance, that is 11-12 hp befofe saves stripped in a single phase. After saves is 8-9

 

If you use Tank Hunters (legion without rules or alpha legion) that is 18-19 hp, after saves becomes 12-13 HP.

 

So, the obvious tactic is to play 4 armies, (12000pts = 4 3k lists), containing 80 darkfire castellax, with something else to strip Void shields.

 

Bear in mind that a Void shield is not subject to Armoured ceramite or Haywire immunity.

[CommodusXIII]

Bear in mind that a Void shield is not subject to Armoured ceramite or Haywire immunity.

 

I'm not so sure about that.  The Towering Monstrosity rule specifies that "The Warlord Titan is completely immune to...".  RAW, this rule covers the entire model without exception for the Void Shields.  Unless there's a FAQ that I'm not aware of...

[Slips]

you get invulns against strength d don't you.

Not vs a 6.

 

A stomp 6 is literally removed from play.

A D table 6 is D6+6 no saves of any think allowed

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

 

Bear in mind that a Void shield is not subject to Armoured ceramite or Haywire immunity.

I'm not so sure about that. The Towering Monstrosity rule specifies that "The Warlord Titan is completely immune to...". RAW, this rule covers the entire model without exception for the Void Shields. Unless there's a FAQ that I'm not aware of...

The Void Shields are hit instead of the titan. This is explicit in the Void Shield rules.

[CommodusXIII]

Yes, I get that.  Interpretation depends on whether you consider Void Shields to be completely independent entities or an extension of the unit that possesses them.

 

The flip side of this is that if Void Shields are completely independent of the Titan, then they are not technically vehicles in their own right.  They have an Armor Value, yes, but lack the vehicle attribute in their description.  This is a very old problem that has never been resolved by GW or FW.

 

If, RAW, void shields are not vehicles than Haywire, Gauss and any special rule that specifies attacks against vehicles would not affect them.  Armourbane specifies only a modifier to armor penetration rolls, not the target, so would function normally.

 

(EDIT: 40K) Grav weapons, of course, are completely useless.  They technically don't have any Hull Points for Grav to strip.  Void Shields only collapse against Glancing or Penetrating Hits per their rule - Grav causes neither.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Who is talking about Grav Weapons? We're talking about Graviton weapons in 30k, which have the Haywire special rule. Which pretty explicitly cause Glancing/Penetrating Hits.

 

In regards to Haywire Immunity;

 

"The Warlord Titan is completely immune to the effects of Haywire Attacks..."

 

"While the models Void Shields are active, any hits scored by shooting attacks against it strike its void shields instead."

 

Unit Composition is 1 Mars Warlord Battle Titan, otherwise noted as "the model". Although there is nothing explaining the datasheet in the book, this is noted within other publications by which we've got to use as example lacking any better rule.

 

The Void Shields are a special rule. Which state that when the model is hit, you roll against the Void Shields INSTEAD. 

 

Now, in the 7th edition rulebook, Instead is used when it's something different than normal; "However Cavalry models treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain INSTEAD", "Any Attack that normally inflicts Instant Death or says that the target model is removed from play inflicts D3 Wounds on a Gargantuan Creature or Flying Gargantuan Creature INSTEAD", "Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to and from their hull..."

 

It means in place of. The Void Shield is a special rule, and not a Titan. A similar rule is Look Out, Sir, "allocate the wound to that model instead". 

 

Void Shields are always spoken of in their own regard. Lacking an FAQ, the wording is in the favour of Haywire affecting Void Shields, intentionally or otherwise. A Void Shield is not a Titan, after all. And try explaining how a Void Shield has Armoured Ceramite too.

[CommodusXIII]

There's no need to get so worked up.

 

 

 

Arguing from your standpoint:

 

As you said, the Haywire attack is allocated from the Titan to the Void Shield.  As you also said, the Void Shield is not a Titan itself.  It isn't a vehicle.  It's a special rule.  Void Shields are just there - some nebulous entity that has an AV value, no Hull Points and can collapse/regenerate.

 

RAW interpretations thrive on definitions and attributes.  Things that lack attributes tend to cause problems.  It's a semantic argument, yes, but that's the danger of RAW interpretations.

 

The Haywire rule specifically functions against vehicles.   If the Void Shield is not a vehicle, the Haywire attack does not have an effect.

 

This is not unique to Haywire - any special rule that specifically affects vehicles will not affect Void Shields.  This is why I mentioned Gauss weapons as well.  Armourbane (and melta weapons) are not specific to vehicles in their verbiage and would affect Void Shields.

 

I mentioned 40K Grav weapons because people are reading this thread from a 40K perspective as well - it was a short aside to the peanut gallery.  We'll have to deal with Warlords in 40K eventually as well, so we might as well start thinking about it.  If you feel that it doesn't apply, feel free to ignore it.

 

 

 

As I said, this is a very old quirk of RAW Void Shields that has been kicked around for a long time now and hasn't been resolved.  Many players don't like it, and one solution was to treat Void Shields as an extension of the vehicle that possesses them - to give Void Shields an attribute and avoid these grey area headaches.

 

This is a double-edged sword for Titans in 30K that isn't an issue in 40K due to the lack of the Towering Monstrosity rule in the latter.  If Void Shields are treated as an extension of the Titan to get around the "not a vehicle" argument above, instead of this nebulous not-definition, then they take on the Titan's other rules and attributes as well.  In 30K, this yields another boatload of immunities and, while they're less of a headache to understand, don't help matters at all when it comes to actually killing Titans.

 

 

 

Another aside:  Fortifications get around this mess due to the small clause about being treated as vehicles.  The Void Shield special rule doesn't have any such clause.  Really, all GW/FW has to do to fix this bug is to add a clause stating:

 

For the purposes of special rules, each Void Shield counts as a vehicle with AV12 and a single Hull Point.

 

Or something similar.  It's unlikely to happen, though.  Who knows, maybe this is by design.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Who's worked up? Stop putting emotions into words.

 

if you're using that line of thinking, as you only roll to penetrate vehicles with Armour Values, the Titan is effectively immune to harm.

 

"Once a hit has been scored on a vehicle, roll a D6 and add the weapon’s Strength, comparing this total with the Armour Value of the appropriate facing of the vehicle.

• If the total is less than the vehicle’s Armour Value, the shot has no effect.

• If the total is equal to the vehicle’s Armour Value, the shot inflicts a glancing hit.

• If the total is greater than the vehicle’s Armour Value, the shot inflicts a penetrating hit."

 

Buildings tell you treat them as vehicles unless mentioned otherwise. If you're saying that because a Void Shield is not listed as a vehicle, it cannot be hit by Haywire, then it cannot be beaten by anything.

 

I'm saying it's not a titan, because it's not, it's telling you to resolve hits instead against a Void Shield, which is an AV12/12/12 bubble destroyed on a glancing, penetrating or destroyer hit. Raising the point it's not a vehicle means it cannot be killed at all, and as it shares rules common to every single vehicle that leads by process of logic and example to lead you to resolving that it can be penetrated as if it wasn't a vehicle.

[CommodusXIII]

Which a further problem of treating it as if it wasn't a vehicle (just a special rule with no definition) and goes back to my original point - to make Void Shields work within the current mechanics, they're best treated as extensions of the parent unit.

 

It can be houseruled as much as anyone wants. That was just where a RAW approach leads. In the end, we all make the most of what we have, holes and all.

[CommodusXIII]

Anyway...

 

It might be unconventional, but what about... ignoring it?

 

I mean, if you're playing a point level that lowballs you on the amount of firepower you can take, then your opponent will be hamstrung by sinking his resources into one large (though tough) model. As a Knight player, I can atest to the inherent vulnerabilities of that approach.

 

I can also understand the drive to add a Warlord to the personal kill list. Massed Flyers would probably be my choice, as the Warlord will have a harder time swatting them. If your opponent can bring both the Warlord and significant anti-aircraft, you can bring both significant aircraft and some Cerebuses (Cerebi?). Or a ton of Heavy Support Squads with Lascannons.

 

To be honest, though, this is bringing a knife to a gunfight. The Warlord is truly designed for Titan-on-Titan combat, both in the fluff and on the table. This blurs the line between 30K and EPIC, and requires an EPIC-in-30K mindset to combat. It's an uphill battle without your own Titan(s). That also means that there's just that much more glory to be won.

 

Does anyone remember an old White Dwarf fluff piece about a Land Raider tank company hunting a Chaos Reaver Titan? I'll have to dig that out.

[1ncarnadine]

If titan void shields don't ignore Haywire, then technically a support squad of Iron Hands with Graviton Rifles could pretty easily overload all of the void shields on a 6+ story monstrosity, shields which could normally stop six strength D shots before being stripped. Let's take a step back and think about that one, when those same rifles could struggle with a Castellax robot that's like 1/50th the size of the Titan. From that perspective, I'm fine with voids ignoring haywire and whatever else, and I think it's what they intended. But it's up to all you guys and who you're playing with.

Though if you're using Leviathan you should definitely let Haywire go through the Void Shields

Also fun fact: For the price of 80 Darkfire Castellax you can almost buy 3 Warlords. I think? How much were Warlords priced at? Maybe 100 Castellax for 3 Warlords.

[Slips]

Warlord was priced at Roughly 2 Thousand-ish Dollars give or take a few hundred...

[Hesh Kadesh]

If titan void shields don't ignore Haywire, then technically a support squad of Iron Hands with Graviton Rifles could pretty easily overload all of the void shields on a 6+ story monstrosity, shields which could normally stop six strength D shots before being stripped. Let's take a step back and think about that one, when those same rifles could struggle with a Castellax robot that's like 1/50th the size of the Titan. From that perspective, I'm fine with voids ignoring haywire and whatever else, and I think it's what they intended. But it's up to all you guys and who you're playing with.

Though if you're using Leviathan you should definitely let Haywire go through the Void Shields

Also fun fact: For the price of 80 Darkfire Castellax you can almost buy 3 Warlords. I think? How much were Warlords priced at? Maybe 100 Castellax for 3 Warlords.

An 18" Range Heavy 1 weapon system without the means to close with a vehicle loaded with S7 AP3 or better weaponry that can cover an entire battlefield can "easily" strip Void Shields, but do nothing else.

Where is your argument when something like a pair of Deredeos can strip its Void Shields for the same cost as that Graviton Squad.

[Dono1979]

If titan void shields don't ignore Haywire, then technically a support squad of Iron Hands with Graviton Rifles could pretty easily overload all of the void shields on a 6+ story monstrosity, shields which could normally stop six strength D shots before being stripped. Let's take a step back and think about that one, when those same rifles could struggle with a Castellax robot that's like 1/50th the size of the Titan. From that perspective, I'm fine with voids ignoring haywire and whatever else, and I think it's what they intended. But it's up to all you guys and who you're playing with.

 

 

I think you are underestimating the potency of those Graviton Rifles.... a ten man support squad armed with them can kill a baneblade in a single volley of fire. 

 

Void Shields are not almighty barriers of "You shall not pass", as Hesh points out there are a lot of unit out there capable of stripping that many void shields with easy; Autocannon Dreads, Thudd Rapiers, Autocannon Support Squads. Yes they will block a half dozen D-Weapon shots as well, but such is the state of Rule Mechanics

[1ncarnadine]

^ Yeah, I wasn't even thinking about the logic of super-heavy tanks vs Graviton Rifles, but that's a good point. Also forgot about autocannons, which are supposedly ~20-40mm cannons, and they can knock out voids, so why not Graviton Cannons/Rifles too when voids are maybe warp/gravity fields (I guess)? I just started re-reading Titanicus so my imagination is working too hard on this one :P

 

Never tried to say Graviton Rifle support squads were a legitimate anti-Titan strategy though. Just thinking in a vacuum on how strange some small arms vs a Warlord titan's voids felt. Still can't say it feels 100% right, but then again the scale of the Warlords has been reduced somewhat from fluff to make them remotely sensible or playable and I need to get used to that.

[Dono1979]

The void shields in the novels certainly do appear to work differently to those in the game mechanics, but then against there are conflicting pieces of fluff on HOW they work as well. The larger titans appeared to have far stronger shields and required entire groups of Titans to concentrate their fire JUST to collapse them at which point the Warlord itself started taking significant damage, however the rule mechanics have gone the reverse, keeping the Voids shields the same and making the chassis itself exceptionally strong.

 

All in all I think I am happy with the way it has been done and it still really does create an impression of daunting Titan only able to be tackled by other Engines or dedicated Titan killer armour. Keeping in mind that the appearance of one of these things is going to be so rare outside of Apoc games 

[noigrim]

bigger titans have more shields both in the.novels and in the game, the shields work just like in epic wich is fine.

 

I'm still at loss why my reaver can't have ceramite and the warlord can must be selling reasons.

 

I think that the efectiveness of the warlord depends on the table size, since he can't shot under 24" with the carapace he will struggle in small tables.

[sedobren]

Well, lets say you only have to play against ONE warlord, For that same amount of points you could play: one master of signal to boos bs if needed (and orbital strikes), one forge lord (or just nothing, also), 2 cerberus tank destroyers, 3 sicaran venators, 4 rapier batteries of 3 guns each all with thudd guns 8or laser destroyers for less), une primaris lisghning with kraken penetrators. So you have 2 * d3 plus 6 neutron laser shots (up to 12 so), 48 thudd gun shots (i'd prefer the laser destroyer, since once the void shield are gone they become useless) and 6 kraken missiles. You will definitively strip the warlord of all its shields, and then you need just one hit to neutralize him at the very least. say you go with the laser destroyers, you have 12 shots, which reroll to pen and hit, once the shields are gone, in the best case scenario (all off your units are alive, since he can only snapshot), you strip around 3 hull points with the neutron lasers and 1-2 with the laser destroyers, plus 1 (or 2 if you are a bit more lucky) thanks to the lighning, once. so we are around 5, maybe 6 hull points per turn, plus he regenerates around 2 of its shields every turn. You should not be able to kill him in a normal 6-turn game,or at the very least its going to be a really close call, even if it only snap shoot for the whole game.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Player takes Centurion, two tactical squads, go to ground, hide in terrain at opposite end of the board, try to go second, hide warlord in reserve.

 

Warlord walks on, unleashing 20 s6 ap3 blasts and amuler bolt cannons wiping out your scoring units, and advancing to close with your other units with its s9 ap2 flamers causing id, while your snap shots do nothing against its one shot and melee weapons.