Skitarii and Mechanicum HARD DATA review

[Seathal]

Glad to see your experiences with the Skitarii and Mechanicum. They are both fun armies, specially when played together. The WD formation is cool, very varied and fun and nice bonuses (mainly free plasmas on skitarii that don't get hot! and free missiles on your ik, oh, and the relics!) but I'm kinda sad it's the only way we get to "ally" Mech and skitarii without recieving the Canticles of the Omnissiah to both.
 

Would you all recommend full squads of 10 on the base troops?

I wouldn't unless you run the War convocation so you can take an extra "free" special weapon. Otherwise 6 seems a sweet spot. You got 2 special weapons, an Alpha, an Omnispex and 2 more bodies. If they kill 2 you don't get to do a morale check and it's no drama if the enemy focuses fire and kills the entire unit.

But that's just my take. I combat squad everything on Marines. Easier for your enemy to get first blood but harder for him to do potential damage on the long run.

 

One thing to be careful of (it's burned me once before) is when you Infiltrate your Infiltrators and you are going first.  Be VERY mindful of the Infiltrator's placement/movement in relation to being assaulted on your enemy's turn (you can't assault turn one when going first but your enemy can).

 

Burning that high BS Doctrina going for that Alpha strike (+3BS and -2WS) can devastate your Infiltrators if your opponent manages to charge your Infiltrators on their turn.

 

It hurts bad when they are swinging with WS2. 

I'll have to re-read the rules but I think it only affects your phase and vanishes on your opponent's turn. It goes both ways, if you're assaulting on your turn you might get +1/2/3 WS, but not on your enemies turn. I think it gets back to normal, that's why it's safer to use the +3BS/-2WS on the first turn.

[Cactus]

No, the effects of Doctrina Imperatives last until the start of your next turn.

[DeStinyFiSh]

I had no game so far, still busy with painting my Skitarii, but I want to know what experience you have got with the Relics of both Codices.

Are they any good ?

Especially Pater Radium and Phosphoenix look on paper like they could be good, but also could be a total waste.

But please share some experience about all of them

[CommodusXIII]

I've never fired a shot with my Phosphoenix.  I take it from time to time, especially against power armor, but that 6" range is simply not enough unless you're about to charge.  I run mostly Vanguard and Rangers, so I don't want to get that close if I don't have to.  If you run Sicarians then you should get more mileage out of it.

[Vel'Cona]

Really, the best way to use the Phosphoenix is if you're going for allied Drop Pods, since you can all but guarantee you'll be in range to use it.  Even then, the insanely high cost means that you could just go for another Plasma Caliver or something if you really want a high-powered MEQ killing weapon.

 

Pater Radium is interesting because it's a mild deterrent to countercharging enemy units, but the fact that your characters can be a bit squishy makes it less than optimal (since they have to be alive at the end of a combat round).  If Skitarii had a character (ie. putting the Pater Radium on a Tech-Priest Dominus or something) then it would be amazing, but as it is I think it's best to save the points or simply go for some form of upgraded CCW.

[Marshal Ommadon]

Unfortunately for my and the Pater Radium I've only had it come into play twice and it didn't do anything.  First I had it on my Ruststalkers, they charged a small Bike squad and they ended up killing the squad before I could use it.  The next time, still on a Ruststalker squad, I charged a T-Cav unit (it wasn't full strength) and while I forced the T Test the T5 T Wolves passed it no problem.

 

Since I predominately play a War Convocation it's always in my lists, but I've since moved it to my Vanguard Squad (to stack with their -1T) and I give the Mask to the Ruststalkers.

 

I typically give the Phase Taser to my Infiltrators.

 

Raiment of The Technomaryr to my Kastelan Robot squad.

 

Scryerskull to the Dominus.

 

Rangers I'm never sure what to give them.  Maybe either the Divinator or the Skull of Eldar?  The Phosphoenix's range is just too short.

[Terminus]

Unfortunately for my and the Pater Radium I've only had it come into play twice and it didn't do anything.  First I had it on my Ruststalkers, they charged a small Bike squad and they ended up killing the squad before I could use it.  The next time, still on a Ruststalker squad, I charged a T-Cav unit (it wasn't full strength) and while I forced the T Test the T5 T Wolves passed it no problem.

 

Since I predominately play a War Convocation it's always in my lists, but I've since moved it to my Vanguard Squad (to stack with their -1T) and I give the Mask to the Ruststalkers.

 

I typically give the Phase Taser to my Infiltrators.

 

Raiment of The Technomaryr to my Kastelan Robot squad.

 

Scryerskull to the Dominus.

 

Rangers I'm never sure what to give them.  Maybe either the Divinator or the Skull of Eldar?  The Phosphoenix's range is just too short.

 

Skull would probably be better on the Infiltrators, since they have the speed to get in optimum position (and their rules encourage you do get amidst the enemy anyway), and otherwise have no recourse against armor other than their mass of S6 Ap - attacks. Whether it's worth 25 points depends on how long you can keep them alive and whether you see a lot of armour. It's an easy choice when free, however.

 

Phase taser I don't see the point of on Infiltrators, since you're paying 15 points to upgrade your existing taser for the not that great electrocution rule (fluffwise this thing is hilarious, a magic stick that makes people disappear). If it's free, the Skull is still probably a better choice. Why can't Princeps take melee weapons from the armoury?! ARGH!

The Phase Taser probably makes more sense for on a Ruststalker Princeps to improve their damage output during the first turn of combat before the razors and claws adjust, but the mask is a far more important relic for them. The only thing keeping me from getting another box so I can run the Killclade formation is the thought of units of Stalkers that break easily if that first round of combat doesn't go well. With the Infiltrators you don't really have that worry since between their aura, pistols, and tasers they shouldn't lose too many combats, and are Ld10 with the Infoskull.

 

I can't fit Kastelan robots into 1850 for War Convocation. Even if I could, I really like the Rainment on the IC Dominus, because I can put it on whatever unit I want, whether it's the plasma-loaded Vanguard for flying monstrous creatures, arc-rifle-totting Rangers for flyers, or Grav destroyers for invisible death stars. Plus, my Forge World is all about the Bestia Mechanica (what with 8 Castellax and 2 Thanatar).

[DeStinyFiSh]

So I finally had my first game yesterday, 1500 points vs Salamanders (Drop Pods).

Here my list first (some German in between):

Skitarii Maniple: Skitarii (Hauptkontingent)
*************** 1 Elite ***************
5 Sicarian Infiltrators
+ Infiltrator Princeps, Conversion field , The Omniscent Mask -> 40 Pkt.
- - - > 215 Punkte

*************** 3 Standard ***************
10 Skitarii Vanguard, Omnispex, 3 x
+ Vanguard Alpha, Phosphor blast pistol, Taser goad, Conversion field -> 35 Pkt.
- - - > 225 Punkte

5 Skitarii Vanguard, Omnispex, 2 x Arc rifle
+ Vanguard Alpha, Arc pistol, Taser goad -> 30 Pkt.
- - - > 115 Punkte

5 Skitarii Rangers, 2 x
+ Ranger Alpha, Galvanic rifle -> 10 Pkt.
- - - > 115 Punkte

*************** 1 Sturm ***************
1 Sydonian Dragoons, 1 x Taser lance
- - - > 45 Punkte

*************** 1 Unterstützung ***************
1 Dunecrawler, 1 x Neutron Laser and cognis heavy stubber, 1 x Cognis heavy stubber
- - - > 120 Punkte

Alliiertes Kontingent: Cult Mechanicus
*************** 1 HQ ***************
Tech-Priest Dominus, Volkite-Blaster, Makropistole, Konverterfeld, Perspicatus-Seherschädel
- - - > 135 Punkte

*************** 1 Standard ***************
3 Kataphron Breachers, 2 x schweres Lichtbogengewehr, 1 x Torsionskanone, 3 x Lichtbogen-Klaue
- - - > 150 Punkte

*************** 1 Unterstützung ***************
2 Kataphron Breachers, 1 x Energiefäuste, 1 x schwerer Phosphorblaster, 1 x Incendine Combustor, 1 x schwerer Phosphorblaster
+ Datasmith, Refraktorfeld -> 50 Pkt.
- - - > 305 Punkte

Inquisitionskontingent: Inquisition
*************** 1 HQ ***************
Inquisitor des Ordo Xenos, Boltpistole, Kettenschwert, 3 x Servo-Schädel, Servorüstung, Strahlungsgranaten, Psigasgranaten
- - - > 72 Punkte


Gesamtpunkte Skitarii : 1497

SKITARII:

Vanguard:

Didn't see much from them. The Plasma Squad used it scout move to get into a ruin right in the center in front of my army sitting on an objective. Plasma was great for killing some Marines and was able to destroy a Drop Pod. Rad Carbines did no wounds. The only reason they survived the alpha strike with a lot of flamers was because of the Tech Priest attached to it, otherwise they would have been to weak to survive.

The Arc Squad was good as well, killing a few Marines first and got rid of a Drop Pod as well. There had been no other Vehicles to shoot at, so kind of wasted potential.

So in general: Good unit for a good price. Special Weapons can do a lot of damage, but you have to take care of them because of the price and fragile models.

Rangers:
I had only 1 Squad with the big snipers sitting at the back holding an objective. The did nearly nothing, because I barelly threw a 4+ to wound... maybe next time, but this set up was absolutely nothing to rely on.

Rustalkers Infiltrators:

The unit of the game ! I knew my opponent would play Vulkan, so I attached the Inquisitor with Rad Grenades to reduce his toughness and instant kill him with a S6 Taser Goat wound. Worked perfect !

I lost 3 Infiltrators and 2 wounds on the Inquisitor first round because of his dropping marines. The remaining three models got into CC with Vulkan and 9 Sternguard. Just the Princeps in a challenge did more than 10 wounds !!! (can't remember exactly, but I was very lucky rolling 6es to hit, every hit was a wound) and I whiped out the whole squad including his warlord.

Great combo to hunt down and instant kill T4 characters (which is kind of fluffy to do with Sicarians )

Sydonian Dragoon:

Was great ! Killed a 5 man squad of Marines in 2 rounds of combat and fetched the objective the stood on. For just 45 points a great unit in close combat. Lack of AP is kind of compensated with the possible high volume of S 8/7 attacks.

Also the speed, the 5+ cover and the Moral bonus for friendly units is just a nice bonus to piss of the enemy

Onagers:

Well, very quick: He killed a 5 man squad of Marines ever turn he fired... realy good !

MECHANICUS

Tech Priest:

I had him in the Plasma Vanguard squad as a tank and he did a great job. He tanked at least 7 or 8 flamer wounds. After that he was down to 1 wound, repairing himself again during the next turns. Shooting was realy unimpressive (didn't do a single wound in 4 rounds).

The Relic to scan vehicles was ok, but only useful when there is no Arc Weapon in range to do the job. Great to support Kastelans, Plasma or the Arquebus.

Kataphron Breachers:

Didn't do much. Killed a Landspeeder and 1 Marine. I had them on one end of the battlefield sitting on an objective, most of the game took place at the other and with lot of terrain in between. The Torsion Canon... well... I couldn't even fire it because of the range

But I am not complaining, they did what I had in mind for them: Kill a few vehicles and sit on an objective.

Kastelan Robots:

I mixed the weapons that's the way I assembled my models, but I was happy with them. Phosphor was epic killing Marines, but the flamer template and the chance to get easily rid of vehicles in CC makes the squad a little more flexible.

Next week I will hopefully have 2 more games. The list will most likely be the same, maybe I add the Knight I got today for some bigger games

All in all I am very happy with the performance, every unit did what I had in mind for them.

Infiltrators hunt down Vulkan.

Plasma Squad sit in a ruin and cover the whole mid field in front of my other army.

Arc Squad had not many targets, but killed some stuff and got attention.

Rangers underperformed, but they secured 1 objective in my backfield and still had the chance to impact the game.

Dragoon just pissed of the opponent, ate overwatch, killed a 5 man squat, grabbed an objective and got attention. Great for 45 points !

Onager was just scary !

Tech Priest tanked a lot of wounds and kept the Plasma Squat and the Warlord alive this way.

Breachers sat on an object and destroyed a vehicle.

Kastelans run up the table to get some attention and kill stuff.

[Vel'Cona]

I know you mean squad, but every time you type "squat" I get nostalgic for the space dwarfs.

Great batrep, in either case. I feel Onagers are probably one of the strongest Skitarii units, so I'm glad to see they worked out for you. I'd like to hear how your list does with an Imperial Knight!

[munocat]

I ran a war convocation on Monday, it was very powerful. I played against ad mech, he had 3 Knights. My knight I did not use until turn 3. One of the best units I had was my rangers with 3 Arquebus. Using a relic from the dominus. Which allow reroll armor pen on one vehicle selected, really helped. With the great BS of the skitarii, and reroll on the pen, really started to destroy his Knights. I also found the kataphron destoyers with the grav canon were awesome. When we finished the game, he had one knight with one hull point left, his Dominus, Datasmith and robots. I lots a few allied vanguard units, convention dragoons, ruststalkers and most of my infiltrators.

[DeStinyFiSh]

So, I had two more games. Kind of the same list as above.

The first game was against Drop Pod Salamanders, but in addition he had 2 Land Raiders (1 with Assault Termis; 1 with Grav Centurions) and a Laser Predator.

My list was the same as above, plus a knight Gallant (the plan was to throw the Pods at the Marines... just for fun )

Clear Victory for me ! Arc Vanguards and Heavy Arc Breachers killed all 3 tanks in the first 2 rounds (supported by the Dunecrawler and the Rangers), so the Termis never reached combat.

The second game was against a psy heavy Eldar army (15+d6 warp charges per turn). He had a lot of bikes, one big blob of Psykers on bikes, a few Reapers, Spiders and Falcons.

This time I lost clearly. It was my first game ever against Eldar. They have been boffed like s*it (only hit on 6es; reroll saves; Armourbane; Fleshbane and god knows what else).

I had the same list as above, minus the Inquisitor, but a Knight Crusader instead.

Next time I will ignore the psyker blob and kill the rest of his army. I wasted to much firepower on them.

Here again troop by troop, just a little quicker:

Vanguard:

The Plasma Vanguards with the Warlord and the Dominus attached is my best unit so far. The damage output is awsome. Against the Eldar I rolled the Shrouded WT and scoutet them into a ruin for a 2+ cover save. They survived the whole game ! Shooting overwatch at BS 4 was great as well to kill 2 Termis and deny him the charge this way.

Arc Vanguard are good as well. 5 Haywire shots at 12" is very reliable to get rid of vehicles.

Rangers:

This time I used them only against vehicles I scanned in advance with the Tech Priests Relic. This was realy good to strip of HPs from the Predator, Drop Pods or a Viper (unfortunately made the jink saves). Much better then the first time I tried to shoot infantry.

Infiltrators:

Again, very good against the Marines. If only a few make it into CC, they kill something !

Made a mistake against the Eldar and lost the whole unit without doing anything. Have to take more care next time, mass S6 is their death.

Dragoon:

Was good as a distraction against SM, giving me a point for behind enemy lines and getting some attention.

Against Eldar it was immobilised on turn 1. But still, for just 45 points it is not wrong to play a few.

Onager:

Striped a HP from a Land Raider before he was destroyed by a Drop Pod Melter.

Did a few kills against the Eldar, but nothing spectacular because of Jink saves and night fighting (forgotten the search light).

Still, a very good unit, but you have to protect them from Melters. A second will follow soon to get a 5++

Tech Priest:

Killed some stuff in the shooting, especially against the Eldar.

Repaired two HP on the knight Gallant and supported the Rangers against vehicles with his Relic.

All in all still a very good unit.

Breachers:

Good against the Marines killing some Landraiders, but had a bad possition against the Eldar.

BS 3 makes them not as reliable as you want them to be. Torsion Canon has done nothing so far in 3 games, so I guess a third Heavy Arc Rifle is the much better choice to get rid of a vehicle when you shoot at it.

Kastelans:

Forced some jinks for the Eldars, but where killed very early by the big psyker blob (Fleshbane).

The Phosphor one was killed early against the Marines, but the remoining one was able to help the Infiltrators against the Centurions and killed 2 of them in one round of combat.

I still realy like these guys, but I want to field more of them to make them realy scarry. Cohort Cybernetica is what I aim for.

And I never used the Protocolls so far, in this mixed unit non of them makes much sense. But you can't go wrong with keeping FNP.

Knight Gallant:

Unfortunately he didn't do much until he got into CC with Vulkan. I was unable to roll a 6, Vulkan was unable to fail his 3++, so this fight went on for 3 turns. So my lesson learned: stay away from ++ saves. Throwing one of his Pods was fun . I will field him again, the low price makes him a good choice I think.

Knight Crusader:

Realy scarry shooting (Gatling and Battle Canon). But again, AP3 is no use against an army full of jink saves and I played him to defensive. I would not field him again against Eldar, but I am sure gainst some other armys that have to rely on their armour saves he can be realy devastating.

All in all I still think it is a realy fun army and can be realy competative.

[pompeyladbfp]

just came back from a comped tournament (no super heavies/triplicates/3 max formations/1 of each HQ) and my experience is:

 

VG with arc rifles where absolute stars for me, killing things like sicirian tanks, and even jinking tau hammerheads with weight of fire. At rapid fire close range and combined with say b6-7 the 6 shots almost guaranteed 4-5 glancing hits, and usually a pen. and even with 4+ cover is taking tanks down in a turn. definitely invest in a omnispex, i didn't and this cost me a few times.

 

onagers: i ran two seperates, the antiflyer option was quite frankly outstanding for its points and even against non flyer armies i used him purely as a tarpit for some nasty units (holding up tau shooty units for a few turns, holding up logan on his chariot for a couple of turns) the other one had the str10 gun, but to be honest didnt really do much, and the best use was charging into necron biker units and holding them up for the entire game

 

ill just use the anti flyer in the future

 

breachers with arc: used in a CAD detachment and usually deploying via drop pod i used these as my alpha strike against the armies that relied on vehicles, trying to land near an objective but still within range of my target (keep back) i often actually landed on top of buildings and got a lucky hit, then move to objective turn3 onwards

destroyers with grav: had 3 units of 3 and one usually deployed via drop pod and came down 2nd-3rd turn to deal with THAT unit causing me trouble, on the turn you can reroll 1 and 2 to hit these units are so efficient at killing nasty stuff, i also always had a librarian with prescience attached to one unit giving proper rerolls. these guys were the star of most of my games and helped me wipe out a wolf star army that had gone undefeated, and also polish off a farsight tau list easily.

 

kastellans: wow, these guys i nearly didnt take but so glad i did... nearly pulled off a win against a decurion list purely because of these (my army got wiped out by the ap4 no cover saves) and in every game they helped deal with things the rest couldnt. i ran 2, one with 2 powerfists and to be honest the dual powerfist guy was most useful. instant deathing farsight, wolflords, smashing up wraiths.

 

ill be using a unit of 3 maybe 4 from now on.

 

dominus: handy, often useing his dataspike as a close combat weapon and killing vehicles (killed a necron lord on chariot with him) also surprisingly tough against 90% of enemy models, i did upgrade his gun but never really used it.

 

i won 3 games, lost 2... out of the two losses the decurion i faced was very nasty and it was the relic where he went first so i was onto a loser he also fielded 16 bikers and 10 wraiths which are a arse for my army to deal with... i nearly pulled off a win by luckily getting a pod turn up late and landing near the unit with relic... but the geame ended.

 

agaisnt the dark eldar army, i made some mistakes and forgot too manyrules... lost the game on killpoints

[MajorNese]

Played my first game yesterday. 3 players per side, 1850p per player, only 3 rounds. Enemy was orks, necrons, tau. In my case:

-2x 10 vanguard, one arc rifle each

-5 taser infiltrators

-magos dominus with volkite

-4 grav destroyers

-3 plasma destroyers

-3 arc breachers

All my built models for now, so I filled up with IG. Strategic warlord trait was Move Through Cover + Stealth (ruins), which turned out to be awesome, as I was tasked with ranged firepower, and could use the various ruins on the field for a 3+ cover, instead of using the (mostly 4+) armour. As the game with 6 armies was quite chaotic, I will just list each unit's experiences.

 

Vanguard:

Both scouted towards mid-field ruins and moved into them in my first turn. One squad removed 3 wounds off a non-FnP riptide just with one round of the 9 radium carbines, arc rifle didn't do anything. This generated so much hate, that all local Tau units targeted (and obliterated) the squad before it could fire again. The other squad was on the other side of the board, and has lost only one model until the end of the game, otherwise it was ignored. Killed 9 necron warriors, a squad of ork boys, and a warboss on bike (T6 4+) with lucky stick running solo. For a relatively cheap unit and only 3 rounds played, that's insane. But this worked well with the Blood Angel ally, who shielded them by running through orks/necrons in CC.

Conclusion:

Arc rifle didn't do much, when I have more arc breachers, I'll probably drop it. Instead, buy another bare squad for more massed fire.

 

Infiltrators:

Well, did not do much. Outflanked behind the Tau firebase, dropping the BS of 2 riptides, 1 firewarrior squad + etheral and a drone team. Killed half the drone team with flechettes, then died to the combined firepower of everything else. It took every unit in that area to kill these 5 guys, so...not that bad, the same firepower killed 20 Space Wolves on another turn, so resiliency works better than expected. Have to experiment more with them...

 

Magos + grav destroyers:

Just sat back in cover. Magos tanked wounds (lost 1, restored afterwards). First round (canticles reroll to hit), the gravs overkilled a ghost ark. 2nd round they killed 2 exovenators, 3rd round they killed 2 crisis suits and a drone, the magos finished the last one with volkite + macrostubber. All the while, gravs were decimated by tau non-LoS missile spam, 2 left after round 2, all killed in 3rd turn by night scythes. Magos survived without a scratch and prevented from giving away Warlord.

Conclusion:

30" range was great, worked better than expected against vehicles (I don't trust in getting 6s) and battlesuits, a second squad would be useful. Also, the most feared unit by the Tau player, all riptides moved out of LoS until end of the game, which again leads me to "one more squad".

 

Plasma destroyers:

24" range is a bit meh, one round they couldn't fire properly. The other rounds, none overheated (only 1 time did, but reroll per canticles), and they killed some stuff, including crisis suits and necron warriors. Were shot down to 1 model, but earned their points back. So many templates really work, so I won't rule these guys out like most players.

 

Arc breachers:

36" range (+ moving) is bonkers, these guys were the hard AT artillery I was looking for. Stacked glancing hits on anything, only problem were cover saves on all targets, have to see if there is any way around that. Ran out of vehicle targets turn 3, so I cranked strength up per canticles and tried to wipe the necron warlord, but they failed to do even one wound to the squad, while being killed by some AP2 CC weapon. Well, was worth a try (with nothing to lose), but entirely failed. Which again makes me glad for the 36" range...

 

As for what I missed most, it was cover ignoring stuff. Enough AP2, enough haywire, just nothing to deny cover saves. AA lacked against the scythes, the Cognis relic on the magos, combined with arc breachers, could perhaps cover that. Vanguard turned out awesome against anything on foot, just the arcs failed to do anything at all. So I'll build enough guys for 3 full, bare squads and see how it works out. Both variants of the destroyers have their uses, I'll build more of each anyway.

[MithrilForge]

finally played some games with my army-

Rangers with transuranic snipers i took 3 in a 10 man squad and they worked well sitting in cover and sniping vehicles and unit specialists, i'll def run these guys again

vanguard with arc rifles FTW ! helped drop a stompa (note to self, paint up my shadowsword for the next game against that bugger!!) arc rifles are very flexible multi role weapons...if you can't decide what to take or don't know what your up against these are a safe bet to take.

Onager - used a jimmy neutron one and an icarus array, both worked very well even though one game had no enemy flyers rolling 6's on the huge amount of shots always netted me something. the neutron gun was great, i may even add 2 more onagers to make a squad with just them, they are anti tank AND anti troop..very flexible weapon too.

Mithril

[MajorNese]

How many arc vanguards did you use, and with or without omnispex?

 

Currently I think of running vanguard bare as cheap massed fire, and use kataphron (arc breachers, grav destroyers) for AT, on a longer range. That way, the vanguard won't get shot at first.

[DeStinyFiSh]

I think the combination of breachers and arc vanguard is the way to go.

 

Vanguard alone die to fast.

Breachers have a good reach, but they are slow an can be manouvered out.

But when the oponent need to take care of the Vanguard, keep the Vehicles at distance AND stay out of the Breachers range, he is very limited.

 

 

I am very curious about 2 things at the moment:

Has anyone had success with Electro-Priests or with the Torsion Canon ?

I never used the Priest and in 3 games, the Torsion Canon has done absolutely nothing so far. I am using 1 and 2 Arc Rifles in the one Breacher troop I have, but it was always out of range, did not hit or, as in the last game, it hit a drop pod and failed the penetration role. Are they usefull in bigger squats, maybe with the reroll AP Relic? Or is the Heavy Arc always better ?

[MajorNese]

Vanguard alone die to fast.

That's the reason I'll try to run them without any upgrades. That should lower their threat level to "will just kill any non-vehicles" and maximizes their output against non-vehicles. Oh, how the Tau player was raging when a stupid troops squad half-killed a riptide first turn..."Such ranged firepower is totally OP...what should I possibly do against such a broken unit, revert to underpowered firewarriors (that will wipe out vanguards from across the board)?"

Torsion cannon is more versatile IF it hits, as it can kill anything that's not a vehicle. With BS3, only one shot, and lower range, that's not exactly good odds, so I stick to arc rifles only. 36" range is great, and they remove almost 3 hull points per round. I'll build 2 squads of 3, with that range (and moving 6") they can cover most of the table. The torsion cannon will do more damage against MC, but that can be covered with vanguard thanks to radium weaponry, or plasma/grav kataphron destroyers (if the MC has good armour). Thank the Omnissiah, our troops can deal with pretty much everything...

[Vel'Cona]

For the 100 points, 10 naked Vanguard are a killer bargain.  The only thing they cannot threat are vehicles, and this is covered in spades by the rest of the army.  That said, I wouldn't take more than 3-4 units in this way to avoid getting meta'd by opponents that can spam AP4 shooting.

[Terminus]

Conclusion:

Arc rifle didn't do much, when I have more arc breachers, I'll probably drop it. Instead, buy another bare squad for more massed fire

A ludicrous conclusion when you only brought one, and only fired it at a riptide. You bring several or don't bother. That's like maligning tactical marines for being bad tank hunters because the one guy with a melta-gun missed his shot. No duh. :P

[MajorNese]

Conclusion:

Arc rifle didn't do much, when I have more arc breachers, I'll probably drop it. Instead, buy another bare squad for more massed fire

A ludicrous conclusion when you only brought one, and only fired it at a riptide. You bring several or don't bother. That's like maligning tactical marines for being bad tank hunters because the one guy with a melta-gun missed his shot. No duh.

The other squad had one as well, and did nothing as other targets were more important. I don't intend to go full arc squads because of breachers, but recent discussions led to "Just bring one or two arcs, and they're versatile. And can hurt MC too.". But, either you target a vehicle (and all other shots are wasted) or you target a non-vehicle (where arc isn't that effective), so that middle road doesn't seem so useful.

For the 100 points, 10 naked Vanguard are a killer bargain. The only thing they cannot threat are vehicles, and this is covered in spades by the rest of the army. That said, I wouldn't take more than 3-4 units in this way to avoid getting meta'd by opponents that can spam AP4 shooting.

Yeah, I'll probably go up to 3 squads, and a squad of rangers for backfield stuff. 2 vanguards are probably not enough, as the low range means they will be shot at with standard weaponry a lot, and won't always have first round for the necessary alpha strike.

[Terminus]

 

The other squad had one as well, and did nothing as other targets were more important. I don't intend to go full arc squads because of breachers, but recent discussions led to "Just bring one or two arcs, and they're versatile. And can hurt MC too.". But, either you target a vehicle (and all other shots are wasted) or you target a non-vehicle (where arc isn't that effective), so that middle road doesn't seem so useful.

Again, if you're only taking one, and not shooting at appropriate targets, of course it's not going to impress. That recent discussion sounds like a bunch of nonsense. Yes, sacrifice 9 guys worth of anti-infantry shooting in order to fire one arc rifle at a tank that even if you roll bananas is not going to take out the vehicle in a round. Who suggested this was a good idea? It sounds like it comes from the same school of thought that considers a missile launcher, two flamers, a powerfist and a commissar with plasma pistol is a good load-out for a platoon command squad. It's versatile! Ugh.

 

You either go all-out, or don't bother at all (naked vanguard are indeed a thing, although I'd still take an omnispex).  When you fire at a vehicle with up to 7 haywire shots, you have a very good chance of one-rounding it. Yes, that means 6-7 guys are just standing around being ablative, but it's worth it when there are no goons in range and/or taking out that Land Raider Reedemer (or whatever) is priority number one. You give up some potential anti-infantry fire, but in exchange you remove an enemy vehicle. That's actually a worthwhile trade-off. When you fire at infantry/MCs, it's still a S6 rapid fire gun, so it's still contributing something.

 

Arc breachers are very nice, but a unit of three costs as much as a 3-rifle vanguard squad, and they are useful pretty much only against vehicles (their BS3 hampering their ability to stack wounds on MCs, et al). If versatility is your goal, arc breachers are not it.

 

 

On a slightly different topic, on a whim I've been running a Ranger squad with 3 arquebus and nominating the Alpha as Warlord for Preferred Enemy, and they have been surprisingly effective/trolltastic. Probably not the best use of points, though, if you're trying to min/max.

[MajorNese]

 

That recent discussion sounds like a bunch of nonsense. Yes, sacrifice 9 guys worth of anti-infantry shooting in order to fire one arc rifle at a tank that even if you roll bananas is not going to take out the vehicle in a round. Who suggested this was a good idea? It sounds like it comes from the same school of thought that considers a missile launcher, two flamers, a powerfist and a commissar with plasma pistol is a good load-out for a platoon command squad. It's versatile! Ugh.

To be honest, for that game I didn't have enough models or points for something else, so why not gain hard data on the recent discussion? Knew building arc guys wouldn't be a waste on the long run anyway.

 

As for adding an omnispex, I guess that won't be a bad choice. In most cases, the infantry with weak armour will hug cover, so it makes sense.

 

 

You either go all-out, or don't bother at all (naked vanguard are indeed a thing, although I'd still take an omnispex).  When you fire at a vehicle with up to 7 haywire shots, you have a very good chance of one-rounding it. Yes, that means 6-7 guys are just standing around being ablative, but it's worth it when there are no goons in range and/or taking out that Land Raider Reedemer (or whatever) is priority number one. You give up some potential anti-infantry fire, but in exchange you remove an enemy vehicle. That's actually a worthwhile trade-off. When you fire at infantry/MCs, it's still a S6 rapid fire gun, so it's still contributing something.

 

Arc breachers are very nice, but a unit of three costs as much as a 3-rifle vanguard squad, and they are useful pretty much only against vehicles (their BS3 hampering their ability to stack wounds on MCs, et al). If versatility is your goal, arc breachers are not it.

I don't like the concept of 150p+ sacrificial units. Full arc vanguards will remove a vehicle per turn, but you only get one chance at that. 7 shots will only be possible on 12", and that means that whatever is transported in the vehicle will wreck your guys. Also, unless the enemy parks his LandRaider exactly at the end of deployment zone and opposite of the vanguards, 6" scout and 6" move won't get them into rapid fire range turn one. At range they have only 3 arc shots, not enough for a landraider, that would mean sacrificing another unit. And, if going second, these guys have to survive a round of shooting at close range.

 

Considering that, I still think arc breachers are more flexible at pure tank hunting. Granted, they can't do much else than tank hunting, but a 42" threat range means that they can always shoot something, while being immune (=out of range) to every standard weapon in the game, which will be the typical cause of death for T3 4+ guys. Either the opponent uses the big guns on it (a waste, as arc breachers are obsolete once the tanks are dead), or they won't be shot at at all (happened in my game). Also, if there's a target with 4 hull points, reroll-to-hit canticle will boost the output from 3 to 4,5 hits.

 

 

On a slightly different topic, on a whim I've been running a Ranger squad with 3 arquebus and nominating the Alpha as Warlord for Preferred Enemy, and they have been surprisingly effective/trolltastic. Probably not the best use of points, though, if you're trying to min/max.

Full squad of rangers? Sounds useful, as that should keep the warlord alive for a while, and preferred enemy should help against sniper unreliability. Only hard data I've seen was with one or two arquebuses, and they failed to do anything at all. 3, with rerolls, should work better...

[Vel'Cona]

I'm confused on the argument for Arc Breachers; why not just run HGC Destroyers?  I understand the draw of a 3+ save, but frankly Grav can do just as much damage in the long run vs. armored targets, and it kicks the snot out of 75% of everything else to boot (Orks and IG notwithstanding).  Arc Rifle Vanguard fulfill a very different role (ie. excellent anti-armor DP unit) and should only be shooting accordingly unless there are no other viable targets on table.

[MajorNese]

The discussion has so far been more about arc platforms, that would explain the lack of grav.

 

For now, I use the plasma, grav and arc kataphron variants, as I have 6 models of each (found a way to stretch the boxes), and they complement each other. As pretty much everyone around here plays superheavies, just removing one HP per lucky 6 won't do much, but grav slows down stuff like LandRaiders reliably. On the other hand, arc reliably strips hull points off anything, and additionally has a 3+ armour and 6" more range while being slightly cheaper. Bringing a few breachers and a few more grav worked so far...

[DeStinyFiSh]

My experience with Vanguard, Rangers and their loadout:

 

10 Vanguard with 3 Plasma and the Warlord in cover is one of the best units on the table. My opponents agree. I also like to attache the Tech Priest to tank some wounds.

 

I also run a 5 man squad with 2 Arc Rifles and an Arc Pistol. If you start the game you can deploy them on the very front, scout 6 inch and then move 6 inch. With the help of some cover you should be able to shoot the vehicle you want latest turn 2. With an Omnispex they always got their 115 points back.

 

Rangers with Arquebus: I just have 5 man with 2 Arquebus. They did nothing against infantry, but with the reroll AP relic of the Tech Priest they have been very good at stripping down hull points and finish of a predator for example.

I do not know what the prefered enemy helps them. Hitting is not the problem with BS 4 and the Doctrina, but you wound only on a 4+ .