Legion Tiers

[calvin the wraithlord]

I was talking to afew friends today after our game and we ended up trying to put the legions into tiers, abit like 40k except without eldar at the top!

 

As far as we could reason the top two would probley be Iron hands and Word bearers whereas the book one legions would probley be closer to the bottom, whats everyone's thoughts on this? Is there any kind of set in stone tiers list like in 40k? Or would you say all the armies tend to fair equally in the fires of battle? :P 

[Hesh Kadesh]

Pre Book V I rated;

 

1; Raven Guard, Alpha Legion

2; Sons of Horus, Night Lords, Word Bearers with Lorgar and Be'lakor

3; Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Word Bearers with Daemons

4; Everything else

 

Based on 3k + games.

[ThatOneMarshal]

We had this same discussion in the tactics area. I'll just copy paste what I said there.

 

 

Iron hands because good characters, primarch, and amazing legion tactics. Extremely scary and downright op against armies like imperial guard. Special units are alright immortals seem bad gorgons seem good.

 

Imperial fist: amazing legion tactics, great special terminator gear, awsome special characters. Aside from being unwieldy dorn seems good. Special units templars are good phanalx are okay. Almost no restrictions or drawbacks compared to others.

 

Alpha legion: absolutely amazing chapter tactics. Don't like infiltrate fine have scout or a bajillion diffrent rules. Extremely flexible. Special characters good. Dynat is really good along with exodus. Primarch might just be the best one of the best around because of cheapness and utility. Special units laermans have multiplie personalities; they want to be close but have a conversion Beamer. Head hunters are good. Row is amazing.

 

In a close second I think salamanders, raven guard, and and word bearers with deamons. the middle are iron warriors, night lords, death guard, and word bearers without deamons.

 

In last I feel the original four are the weakest aside from the death guard.

 

Emperors children: a close combat army with very little benefits to cc. The challenge rule is their bane in my opinion. Row seems pretty good. Eidiolins seems to be the only good special characters. Maybe Saul for lower point games. Special units are pretty bad or over costed. Fulgrim seems to be very good.

 

Sons of horus: good legion rules. Bad row. Good special characters especially malohoarghaost are good. Special units: reavers are the best. Justarien are waaaaay to expensive. I heard that they were the elite but Jesus Christ. At least make them two wounds or something. Horus is awsome but extremely expensive.

 

World eaters: they are really good at close combat no doubt there. There problem is getting there. Funny enough their future selves, bezerkers have the same problem. Now unlike chaos the legion has a way to get them there. The problem is that it's too expensive. If you want an assualt transport your setting yourself 250 points back at the minium. Legion row is awsome. Out of the special characters Khârn seems the best. Out of the special units red butchers are awsome while rampagers aren't. Angrons is great at cc but that about it. He doesn't help your troops in anyway. Though that how it should be. But it would have been nice to have him give zealot or soemthing to people around him.

 

That's my take on it.

Edited by ThatOneMarshal, 17 April 2015 - 04:49 PM.

[Theredknight]

Death guard and we fron the first can still hold their own.

I'd put emperors children bottom followed by poor sons of horus.

Reasons?

 

Both have weak expensive terminator units (soh are horrendously over costed) EC are ws4 glass hammer. Compared to say red butchers or sallies.

 

Characters are meh. Tarvitz is sadly nigh useless, and abaddon is certainly not like his fluff.

Reavers can be 'ok' but are half Tac, half assault, and not quite part of either.

 

Ec kakophoni are absolutely useless, nonusable and their rules make no sense, shame because the models rock.

 

. Rylanor is an overcosted temptor when put next to say the sally Dred, or standard. Not being able to change the flamer is weak.

 

Horus is a good primarch however, fulgrim is ok.

 

Both legion traits are weak, and not very useful at all.

I think with ec in 16 games, I have had 1 or 2 chances where i managed to roll my extra d3 for sweep. Even then it was against units I didn't need to!

 

I started collecting at the beginning, loved the models and the first 4 balanced nicely. The others threw that out with things like bs5 bolters, or -1strength incoming fire or just..salamanders lol

 

One day in years in front mayve, just maybe theyl get some love

[Theredknight]

Pre Book V I rated;

 

1; Raven Guard, Alpha Legion

2; Sons of Horus, Night Lords, Word Bearers with Lorgar and Be'lakor

3; Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Word Bearers with Daemons

4; Everything else

 

Based on 3k + games.

Interesting, why soh so high up out of interest?

and you don't think the ultras worthy of being in those higher ranks?

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

In order of best to worst:

Word Bearers

Alpha Legion

Imperial Fists

Iron Hands

Night Lords

Death Guard

World Eaters

Raven Guard

Ultramarines

Iron Warriors

Salamanders

Sons of Horus

Emperor's Children

[jeremy1391]

I rank fists and Ravens in the top 5. Great rules, great characters, awesome special units, ok Primarchs.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ravens definitely have a great selection. Infiltrate and fleet on all infantry, decapitation strike gives optional pods and bonuses to go first. Maun is an excellent support character and can give a pod to units that don't get the option; or can deploy and have bonuses to going first and 18" no scatter beacon. Nex is interesting, his guns have the longest range for moritats and can threaten a lot of things with rending, more of a fluff character though. Mor Deythan are great with their combi weapons and fatal stike; simply having combi plas can ruin days, but the combi-flame gimmick has great potential too. Dark Furies are pretty decent for their price, still not too sure about them though since 2+ armour is pretty prevalent.

 

Corax; he's very finesse compared to the rest of the primarchs. Meant to roll solo and disrupt your opponent then melt away; I'd always recommend going -1 to hit to maximize the survivability and to potentially stack with blind. He also gets to vector strike so he can kill light flyers. To top it off he makes his army auto run 6 which boosts their maneuverability incredibly. Not the most support or combat character, but a good player can make more use of him than any other primarch    

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

Pre Book V I rated;

1; Raven Guard, Alpha Legion

2; Sons of Horus, Night Lords, Word Bearers with Lorgar and Be'lakor

3; Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Word Bearers with Daemons

4; Everything else

Based on 3k + games.

Interesting, why soh so high up out of interest?

and you don't think the ultras worthy of being in those higher ranks?

I don't have Book 5 yet. Hence pre Book V comment. SoH get DT Drop Pods without needing Orbital Assault and can afford not to take a MoS in suh a list. Plus, Reavers are ace, and there are CCboosts everywhere. In a meta where only one list is really any good at shooting (IH win shoot outs) you need to close and assault ASAP. SoH do that.

[calvin the wraithlord]

In order of best to worst:

Word Bearers

Alpha Legion

Imperial Fists

Iron Hands

Night Lords

Death Guard

World Eaters

Raven Guard

Ultramarines

Iron Warriors

Salamanders

Sons of Horus

Emperor's Children

 

Would you really rate EC so low? Ive yet to lose a game with mine they hit so hard!! I thought world eaters were a much weaker legion as a whole? 

[DuskRaider]

I'd go something like:

 

Alpha Legion

Word Bearers

Imperial Fists

Iron Hands

Night Lords

Death Guard

Sons of Horus

World Eaters

Raven Guard

Ultramarines

Iron Warriors

Salamanders

Emperor's Children

 

World Eaters with their Legion rules and Rite of War are actually really nasty. Night Lords suffer from anti-tank, as do Death Guard. Ultramarines suffer from being cost prohibitive. Emperor's Children suffer from a distinct lack of identity, IMO.

[Theredknight]

 

 

In order of best to worst:

Word Bearers

Alpha Legion

Imperial Fists

Iron Hands

Night Lords

Death Guard

World Eaters

Raven Guard

Ultramarines

Iron Warriors

Salamanders

Sons of Horus

Emperor's Children

Would you really rate EC so low? Ive yet to lose a game with mine they hit so hard!! I thought world eaters were a much weaker legion as a whole?

I agree with dusk, out of them all they suffer in rules and units. The ones they have are situational and overcosted.

 

What sort of list are you playing and opponents? Post up in emperors children tactica, we'd be very interested!

[calvin the wraithlord]

 

 

In order of best to worst:

Word Bearers

Alpha Legion

Imperial Fists

Iron Hands

Night Lords

Death Guard

World Eaters

Raven Guard

Ultramarines

Iron Warriors

Salamanders

Sons of Horus

Emperor's Children

Would you really rate EC so low? Ive yet to lose a game with mine they hit so hard!! I thought world eaters were a much weaker legion as a whole?

I agree with dusk, out of them all they suffer in rules and units. The ones they have are situational and overcosted.

 

What sort of list are you playing and opponents? Post up in emperors children tactica, we'd be very interested!

 

 

To be honest im pretty new to 30k, ive been running

 

Fulgrim with 20 tacs /w cc weps and an apoco in a spartan 

Eidolon in a raider with 5 pal blades

5 more pal blades in a raider 

10 tacs barebones in a rhino

1 Sicarian venerator

1 Whirlwind Scorpios/Sicarian depending on who im against it varies

 

With upgrades etc its about 2500

 

Havent lost a game with this list yet played about 7 against varied opponents, necrons(40k), Imperial fists(30k), Alpha Legion(30k), Dark eldar(40k) dark angels(40k) and Salamanders(30k)

[DuskRaider]

Well field a Primarch against anyone under 3,000 points and you'll probably sweep the board.

[calvin the wraithlord]

Well field a Primarch against anyone under 3,000 points and you'll probably sweep the board.

 

Usually id agree but with his 5++ hes actually pretty damn easy to aim down

[Slips]

 

Well field a Primarch against anyone under 3,000 points and you'll probably sweep the board.

 

Usually id agree but with his 5++ hes actually pretty damn easy to aim down

 

Until hes in combat and it turns into a 3++

[calvin the wraithlord]

 

 

Well field a Primarch against anyone under 3,000 points and you'll probably sweep the board.

 

Usually id agree but with his 5++ hes actually pretty damn easy to aim down

 

Until hes in combat and it turns into a 3++

 

 

Hense why i said aim down, meaning shoot him down, something you cant do if hes in combat :P  being a primarch means hes likley going to kill what he charges meaning hes always going to weather a turn of shooting after it, and if he doesn't theres a good chance he'll lose atleast a wound in CC as 3+ fails are common place, hell i lost a wound to a squad of wyches the other day, a venom with blasterborn, afew lascannons, meltas, pretty much any of these can kill him in a turn or two, so like i said, very easy to aim down, most CC characters have 3++/4++ in and out of CC anyway so its not a HUGE deal him having 3++ in cc tbh if he didnt he'd be bloody awful :P

[ThatOneMarshal]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well field a Primarch against anyone under 3,000 points and you'll probably sweep the board.

Usually id agree but with his 5++ hes actually pretty damn easy to aim down

Until hes in combat and it turns into a 3++

Hense why i said aim down, meaning shoot him down, something you cant do if hes in combat :P being a primarch means hes likley going to kill what he charges meaning hes always going to weather a turn of shooting after it, and if he doesn't theres a good chance he'll lose atleast a wound in CC as 3+ fails are common place, hell i lost a wound to a squad of wyches the other day, a venom with blasterborn, afew lascannons, meltas, pretty much any of these can kill him in a turn or two, so like i said, very easy to aim down, most CC characters have 3++/4++ in and out of CC anyway so its not a HUGE deal him having 3++ in cc tbh if he didnt he'd be bloody awful :P

 

To be fair it's kinda hard to shoot him down if he's in a spartan with flare shields and armoured ceramtie. What warlord trait do your run him with?

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

 

 

In order of best to worst:

Word Bearers

Alpha Legion

Imperial Fists

Iron Hands

Night Lords

Death Guard

World Eaters

Raven Guard

Ultramarines

Iron Warriors

Salamanders

Sons of Horus

Emperor's Children

Would you really rate EC so low? Ive yet to lose a game with mine they hit so hard!! I thought world eaters were a much weaker legion as a whole?

The original WE rules from book 1 sucked, but with the added rules in book 2, they are far and away the best assault legion bar none. EC have no idea what they want to be. Yes, Fulgrim is excellent as is Eidolon and Palatine Blades but everything else is just bad. You have Phoenix Terminators, who are supposed to be the most skilled warriors of a legion that prides itself on excellence in martial combat being less skilled than their Other legion counterparts. And their legion rules are basically irrelevant. Had it been +D3 to all moves/runs/assaults they would be fine but Crusader? It's great when winning combat, but you actually have to win the combat, which EC cannot do better than any other legion.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm interested why raven guard are rated below death guard, world eaters, word bearers and night lords. 

 

maneuverability is one of the most powerful tools and you get fleet and infiltrate on most of your units. combine that with a rite of war thats essentially orbital assault thats been buffed and stripped of its drawbacks and you get one hell of an army.

 

Compare that to two legions that rely on combat to get really anything out of their trait (NL and WE), not taking pinning tests (DG), and passing morale (WB). Boggles the mind. Alpha Legion are rated so highly precisely because you pick either infiltrate or tank hunter with dynat, yet prodigal son and duskraider put the legion that always gets infiltrate in the bottom half....

[Theredknight]

 

 

 

In order of best to worst:

Word Bearers

Alpha Legion

Imperial Fists

Iron Hands

Night Lords

Death Guard

World Eaters

Raven Guard

Ultramarines

Iron Warriors

Salamanders

Sons of Horus

Emperor's Children

Would you really rate EC so low? Ive yet to lose a game with mine they hit so hard!! I thought world eaters were a much weaker legion as a whole?

The original WE rules from book 1 sucked, but with the added rules in book 2, they are far and away the best assault legion bar none. EC have no idea what they want to be. Yes, Fulgrim is excellent as is Eidolon and Palatine Blades but everything else is just bad. You have Phoenix Terminators, who are supposed to be the most skilled warriors of a legion that prides itself on excellence in martial combat being less skilled than their Other legion counterparts. And their legion rules are basically irrelevant. Had it been +D3 to all moves/runs/assaults they would be fine but Crusader? It's great when winning combat, but you actually have to win the combat, which EC cannot do better than any other legion.

This is so true. Sadly underpowered now compared to every other legion.

But hey someone has to be at the bottom right? Lol

[Ishagu]

SoH aren't particularly powerful in my experience, and their unique units are underwhelming.

 

Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Salamanders and World Eaters are impressive. I've not seen the other Legions in action.

 

Ultramarines are somewhat useful, their RoW is far too limiting and prohibitive to consider, but their unique units and Primarch are very good.

[DuskRaider]

I'm interested why raven guard are rated below death guard, world eaters, word bearers and night lords.

 

maneuverability is one of the most powerful tools and you get fleet and infiltrate on most of your units. combine that with a rite of war thats essentially orbital assault thats been buffed and stripped of its drawbacks and you get one hell of an army.

 

Compare that to two legions that rely on combat to get really anything out of their trait (NL and WE), not taking pinning tests (DG), and passing morale (WB). Boggles the mind. Alpha Legion are rated so highly precisely because you pick either infiltrate or tank hunter with dynat, yet prodigal son and duskraider put the legion that always gets infiltrate in the bottom half....

Raven Guard are okay... Situational at best. Their characters are weak (including Corax, IMO), their Sniper unit is actually good, but that's it. Sons of Horus are good. Their Rite of War is solid, their characters are not only good but benefit the entire Legion, they have hands down the best Primarch, and Reavers are great assault units. The only thing that the Justaerin suffer from is a high unit price, if they were brought down they'd be much better. They also suffer from the use thing Death Guard do in that they cannot use their Special Terminators as Troops with Pride of the Legion.

[Fire Golem]

I don't think the RG characters (Maun in particular) are overly weak.

[Onehip]

Wondering why Salamander's are low on most peoples list?

Not arguing, just wondering peoples reasoning.