Legion Tiers

[DuskRaider]

If you're taking Grav Cannons just to counter Spartans, you're only focusing on one element of a list, and I'd hardly call them point sinks. They're basically a free Heavy Slot, they can put down a hail of anti-tank fire, and they're probably the most durable vehicle outside of Super Heavies in the game. Sure, Death Guard are a slow Legion, but their rules allow them to be. In any case, they're still better on the field than Raven Guard, hands down.

 

Night Lords can be pretty good. Their main issue is that they lack any anti-tank specialist and they are very prone to running away. Night Raptors can get pricey, but Terror Squads are really good and can throw out a withering hail of Volkite. Sevatar is probably in the Top Three Special Characters, and Chain Glaives are vicious weapons. Kurze is a rightfully feared Primarch, makes short work of squads, Characters, AND most other Primarch, and can continually take advantage of his attack rules thanks to Hit and Run.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

@SkiMaskMohawk

I very rarely go up against Graviton weapons, and when I do they are usually all blast templates unable to hurt my storm Eagles and without enough shots to kill my Spartan. And while World Eaters will take casualties coming across the board, they more than make up for it in firepower. 10 WE marines are putting out statistically 7 wounds on the charge against regular marines so even if they take casualties they still have an advantage against even 20 man squads.

With Night Lords I agree that the Legion Tactics by themself are only ok but when combined with the Rite of War you much more use out of them. I had a unit of raptors tank AP2 weaponry for 2 turns straight and only lose 5 guys because I had a 3+ cover save from the bonuses. And what I was talking about about Curze was his ability to elect to go first if it is night fighting. And specifically that it says the word elect, which means it is totally your choice and nothing can stop it.

With Death Guard they don't have a big obvious really really nice bonus, but they do get a bunch of smaller bonuses that add up. And they can make some killer combos to. Morturg with Deathshroud and Mortarion in a Spartan is amazing. And I don't think you've played against an army with 30 Volkite Culverins. It is absolutely brutal.

[SkimaskMohawk]

If you're taking Grav Cannons just to counter Spartans, you're only focusing on one element of a list, and I'd hardly call them point sinks. They're basically a free Heavy Slot, they can put down a hail of anti-tank fire, and they're probably the most durable vehicle outside of Super Heavies in the game. Sure, Death Guard are a slow Legion, but their rules allow them to be. In any case, they're still better on the field than Raven Guard, hands down.

 

Night Lords can be pretty good. Their main issue is that they lack any anti-tank specialist and they are very prone to running away. Night Raptors can get pricey, but Terror Squads are really good and can throw out a withering hail of Volkite. Sevatar is probably in the Top Three Special Characters, and Chain Glaives are vicious weapons. Kurze is a rightfully feared Primarch, makes short work of squads, Characters, AND most other Primarch, and can continually take advantage of his attack rules thanks to Hit and Run.

 

I take grav cannons to kill all vehicles; they're brutal. A spartan with ceramite and flare shield and grave wardens is 540, which is 1/4 of your points if you play 2000 or 1/5th if you play 2500. If you only get to move once with that spartan and then it dies, leaving your terminators that are only effective in melee to move 6" a turn then its waste of points. It doesn't matter that they don't take up a slot if they're not making their points back.

 

DG rules allow them to get non-compulsory HS squads, meaning you're playing a taxed gunline, a less good version of IF or IH. 

 

Lets compare the two

 

Legion Rules

Positives: Infiltrate and fleet/furious charge for the entire army> Immune to fear/reroll pinning and rerolling successful poison/fleshbane. Fear only kicks in in combat and almost nothing pins anymore in 7th, sniper rifles are trash anyways vs marines. Raven Guard handily win out

 

Negatives:Can't have more Tanks then units with LA:RG ~ -1 to sweeping advances. Raven guard can't spam squadrons of vehicles which only kicks in if you're going to use a lot of squadrons. Death Guard don't capitalize on winning combats; really depends if you're assaulting with terminators or not, if not there's not a lot of worth. Both depend on a lot of variables so are about the same

 

Rights of War

Positives: Optional Drop Pods, Preferred Enemy IC, Elite Death storms, re-roll for deploying (therefor going) first > Non-compulsory Troops for Vets and Heavy Support Squads, Move through cover, rad grenades option. Going first and pods for a large amount of the army is great. If the HS filled your compulsory I'd say the RoWs were about the same but as it is you're just making room for heavy slots and they can score.

Negatives: No allies, no fortifications, one Heavy Support > Can't run, can't deepstrike, can't flat out, one Fast Attack. You lose allies vs speed. The limits to slots cancel each other out. Not being able to maneuver properly is horrible, especially considering 5/6 missions are objective based.

 

Characters

Morturg has one of the best warlord traits in the game, but lacks Master of the legion meaning he'll only be used as a secondary or with no RoW. Rask is also solid at a good price for his gear plus MotL. Typhon is decent, but suffers from the same problem Grave Wardens do. Mortarion is super hard to kill and speedy for a primarch and stubborn is good, but other than that does very little (missile launchers aren't that common as they're trash in 7th)

 

I've already gone over the RG characters but I'll quickly summarize. Nex is a good one trick pony, but will never earn his points back. Maun synergizes incredibly well with the RoW and is cheap. Corax both buffs the army and can shred enemies. Requires good tactics to get the most of him.

 

RG do more for their army, while DG have more dependable melee characters. I'll take the army buffs over the decent melee characters 

 

 

 

@SkiMaskMohawk

I very rarely go up against Graviton weapons, and when I do they are usually all blast templates unable to hurt my storm Eagles and without enough shots to kill my Spartan. And while World Eaters will take casualties coming across the board, they more than make up for it in firepower. 10 WE marines are putting out statistically 7 wounds on the charge against regular marines so even if they take casualties they still have an advantage against even 20 man squads.

With Night Lords I agree that the Legion Tactics by themself are only ok but when combined with the Rite of War you much more use out of them. I had a unit of raptors tank AP2 weaponry for 2 turns straight and only lose 5 guys because I had a 3+ cover save from the bonuses. And what I was talking about about Curze was his ability to elect to go first if it is night fighting. And specifically that it says the word elect, which means it is totally your choice and nothing can stop it.

With Death Guard they don't have a big obvious really really nice bonus, but they do get a bunch of smaller bonuses that add up. And they can make some killer combos to. Morturg with Deathshroud and Mortarion in a Spartan is amazing. And I don't think you've played against an army with 30 Volkite Culverins. It is absolutely brutal. 

Storm Eagles are really good at avoiding grav, but at that point you're hoping for a turn 3 assault and that they have no dedicated AA (deredeo or xiphons). Not sure where the 10 man squad is supposed to be coming from, but if you charge 10 marines vs 20 you're going to lose, considering people usually pour points into their blobs.

 

How did you get a 3+ cover save on your raptors for two turns? It only stacks with stealth and shroud and you only get stealth from night fight. Furthermore From the Shadows only lasts for the first game turn, regardless of the Night Fight extension of terror assault.

 

For Curze I'm afraid you slightly misread it; "a force containing him as its Warlord may always elect to have the first turn of any game use the Night Fighting rule." Not "you may always elect to have the first turn of any game that uses the Night Fighting rule".

 

I've thoroughly talked about death guard bonuses and drawbacks above; but let me discuss culverins. 40 shots out of a full 10 man squad is brutal. No questions there. However are they all in LoS? Are they all in range? Are they all alive? I'm going to refer back to my good friend the scorpius; it's d3+1 8/3 blasts are going to target that squad. They are going to die as they're the prime target for the undercosted scorpius; high value 3+ armour.

 

Also interesting that you mention Morturg allowing sick combos; he gives 3 infantry units Infiltrate; all RG infantry have infiltrate

[depthcharge12]

Why do you guys rate infiltrate so highly? I mean it's great for positioning units, but if you're putting them 18" away, that's prime assault distance for assaulting armies like the World Eaters, Night Lords, etc.

 

Also if I see you have grav cannons, what's to stop me from popping smoke, using cover, denying LoS, etc.? I hate to look at things in a vacuum. It's why I have redundancy units.

 

While legions rules do constitute about 60% of the army's ability, I feel the other 40% is largely opponent skill (assuming averages across dice rolling). What does your opponent expect in the meta? Will he or she take a crazy list that defies the meta? Are they well aware of placement and rules?

 

I'm pretty sure there's no god tier list that beats everything like we're used to with 40k, and likely a reason why we're all playing this game instead (except for you AdMech/knight spamming bastages...you know who you are). I think this starts to become an exercise in futility as we all have biases and there are so many opinions out there, which is what it largely comes down to.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Infiltrate doesn't always mean deploying 18" away. It can mean putting pressure on out of the way objectives, getting the ability to outflank, seeing your opponent's deployment before you have to deploy and still go first, or set up an alpha strike. If you infiltrate 18" away from an assault unit in an assault transport your're asking to lose.

 

Obviously you'd get cover and try to protect your vehicles, but grav is simply the best weapon for killing spartans, on top of that the model is quite big; i'd be impressed if you manage to deny LoS completely. Also the RG rapiers get infiltrate as well, so out deploying them would be very hard. (all infantry get infiltrate, rapier crew is infantry, infiltrate carries over to the entire unit like stealth).

[GreyCrow]

Like Mohawk said, it's not only the ability to get close, but it's the ability to deploy anywhere you want that is fantastic :D The Raven Guard and the Alpha Legion have the most deployment options (the Outflanking ROW are good in other legions, but they are predictable). Sometimes, Infiltrating is preferable, sometimes Outflanking is but the fact that you get both options means you can capitalize on enemy deployment mistakes to further your own units :)

 

Like you said Depth, you can out deploy some units by hiding behind line of sight, etc. Which is what Infiltrate is so awesome, because you can either out deploy units that were hidden or even make sure you negate the counter deployment by placing yourself in a position of safety. Also, coupled with their special rules, the Raven Guard exclusive units are pretty amazing. Mor Deythans care not about Augury Scanners, because if they go first, they'll deploy 18" at the edge, scout 6", move 6", then unload twin linked rending flamers :p

 

Much like in 40k, the Raven Guard might not seem good on paper because their special rules affect movement over stats. But once played on the tabletop, they have a very enjoyable pacing :)

[Ishagu]

The deployment freedom is nice, but not necessary in every game so it's not something I'd fully exploit every time I played.

 

This is why I feel something like the Iron Hands traits are superior - you could really stack the benefit with certain units to make an army that is more survivable in every match-up.

 

You asked me about the Ultramarines. I was more impressed when I proxied their unique units in a test game, truth be told the shooting buff felt underwhelming to me (I was playing against other marines) - but it would be better against a more numerous infantry army for sure.

 

The exclusive jump infantry are pretty good (i feel you're Paying a lot of points for the deep strike buff but I might not want to deploy them that way), the Suzerains are great - really good at chopping down most infantry units. I'll definitely run them as bodyguards to the Primarch. The unique RoW is faaaar to restrictive for me to ever consider, unfortunately.

[GreyCrow]

Thanks man !

It's interesting to see that the unique units are excellent, but the army buff felt lacking to you. I was planning on making a POTL Ultramarines army and I had no special units in my army so far, so I might try to find some room for them

Did you proxy all of them, or just the assault-oriented ones (Suzerains and Locutarus) ? I'd be curious to see what the Fulmentarus bring on the table :)

[Ishagu]

Only the Suzerains and Locutarus.

A squad of 5 and 10 respectively in a 2k game, used assault marines and honour guard/command squad for the proxies.

The Fulmentarus Terminators are interesting but really expensive. You really need to upgrade them with either autocannons or missiles... But you're looking at 500 points for 8 of them with Auto Cannons, without cc upgrades!

The Ultras will work well with a POTL RoW, taking Veterans in Rhinos, imo. But you could make even more elite lists taking Terminators and Suzerains as troops if you include the Primarch.

[d@n]

it seems strange that people don't rate iron warriors higher. what's better then any row or chapter tactic is having  an extra heavy support slot, taking an extra scorpius or sicaran has a far bigger impact on the game. both there special units are very good and there right of war makes legion tactical squads or breachers much better. there primarch is pretty good and so are both there unique characters. the only real drawback is having to take 3 troop choices using their right of war. but so do fists and alpha legion and people seem to rate them higher then iron warriors

[Slips]

it seems strange that people don't rate iron warriors higher. what's better then any row or chapter tactic is having  an extra heavy support slot, taking an extra scorpius or sicaran has a far bigger impact on the game. both there special units are very good and there right of war makes legion tactical squads or breachers much better. there primarch is pretty good and so are both there unique characters. the only real drawback is having to take 3 troop choices using their right of war. but so do fists and alpha legion and people seem to rate them higher then iron warriors

Fists dont have to take 3 Troops, they have to take Breachers.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Very few armies need 5 heavy support slots. (Allies are still a thing).

[SkimaskMohawk]

Oh wow, the return of my favorite thread

[Lord Blackwood]

 

I'm pretty sure there's no god tier list that beats everything like we're used to with 40k, and likely a reason why we're all playing this game instead (except for you AdMech/knight spamming bastages...you know who you are). I think this starts to become an exercise in futility as we all have biases and there are so many opinions out there, which is what it largely comes down to.

Oh no  hes  on to me , time for a diversionary  tactic .....   

 

I have yet to see a legion just get absolutely blown out by another , then  again Ive seen somewhat convincing victories but never a situation where two players  felt that  one of them had just picked a superior legion  theres probably a very  broad middle ground  

[Demus Ragnok]

Holy Threadomancy Batman!

[Xenith]

Why do you guys rate infiltrate so highly? I mean it's great for positioning units, but if you're putting them 18" away, that's prime assault distance for assaulting armies like the World Eaters, Night Lords, etc.

 

Then deploy 19" away :D 

[SkimaskMohawk]

The difference between 40k "picking a better army" and 30k "picking a better legion" is that you're still playing the same army as your opponent in 30k. You can make the exact same list with different legions and it would only change how they operated slightly.

 

What the legions do is really enhance certain play styles: Iron Hands and Fists gun line, World Eaters and Night Lords assault, Raven Guard and Alpha Legion alpha strike, Death Guard, Iron Warriors and Word Bearers horde marine it up, Emperor's Children, Sons and Ultras are tactically flexible 

[Flint13]

Alrighty folks, this one has been dead for awhile. Reanimation is for Necrons not for legions ^_^