Legion Tiers

[Fangbanger]

Me too.. I always thought they had good units and a good right from what I've heard and read

[Slips]

I'd like to know the Peoples Metrics with which they Rated the Legions; thats what I'm most curious about. Kinda like Stat Weights in Hardcore Endgame WoW.

 

What was your "Stat Priority" when making your judgements and how heavily did they Weigh on your final decision?

 

Examples in no particular Order:

 

Flexibility:

Shooting:

Close Combat:

Toughness:

Synergy:

Unit Cost:

 

Etc.

 

Because the few comments rating RG and their Characters so low seems out of place when you consider that most of the Benefits Characters like Maun Bring is mostly in the Form of List Synergy.

[Olis]

I concur with Slipstreams - we need some sort of system shown to what people are measuring against, or least explain why each Legion is where they reckon it is in this dubious 'Tier' ranking. Frankly, I think power tiers are meaningless unless you play in tournaments, and even those parameters are made a mockery of by people min-maxing their lists (maybe we should be looking at which Legion can be min-maxed the most?).

 

If there is no evidence of empirical reasoning, then all this thread boils down to is opinion and hearsay. I must admit there has been attempts at justification, which is fair enough.

 

Edit - Typo.

[Ishagu]

I totally agree with Olis and Slipstream. If we're going to judge the Legions we need criteria to judge them by.

 

It's entirely possible for a Legion to have great rules, but underwhelming characters, or poor rules but useful Rites of War, or any combination of these.

 

Some Legions require finesse, others are simple to use, and some certainly favour play styles that are useful against some armies, but leave you wanting against others!

[GreyCrow]

Indeed, objective metrics are going to be needed in order to properly compare the Legions, and even then it's going to be down to army composition. Most people in my 40k meta that said armies were sucky said so because they were building them opposed to their strengths and playing them in a very suboptimal way. Example, I faced a Farsight player the other day that decided to deploy his Fire Warrior squads in the open while I had a Heavy Flamer Dreadnought in a Pod, then he said they sucked :p

 

Same goes with the Raven Guard rating in this thread, I feel. Just looking at the stats of Corax shows that he has amazing potential ! He definitely would lose in a duel against Horus and Vulkan, but that's not why you take him in a list :p

[Ishagu]

If I fielded a Primarch I wouldn't actively send him to battle one of his brothers as they'll simply stall each other for a bunch of turns...

 

That is something we must also consider however. Some of the Primarchs really bolster an army... Others not so much.

[GreyCrow]

Indeed ! Alpharius is relatively bland on his own for example, but giving Preferred enemy (everything) army wide is pretty huge. Coupled with his own Cognis Signum and plasma weapons in a squad you Hit on 2+ rerolling 1s, Wound on 2+ rerolling 1s... Goodbye, enemy unit !

 

Rites of War should be analyzed because they kinda define how an army would benefit from Legiones Astartes rules. The Emperor's Children ROW is just absolutely brutal with how much control it gives to reserve units, the Iron Hand outflanking vehicles is pretty crazy as well.

[calvin the wraithlord]

Well field a Primarch against anyone under 3,000 points and you'll probably sweep the board.

Usually id agree but with his 5++ hes actually pretty damn easy to aim down

Until hes in combat and it turns into a 3++

Hense why i said aim down, meaning shoot him down, something you cant do if hes in combat being a primarch means hes likley going to kill what he charges meaning hes always going to weather a turn of shooting after it, and if he doesn't theres a good chance he'll lose atleast a wound in CC as 3+ fails are common place, hell i lost a wound to a squad of wyches the other day, a venom with blasterborn, afew lascannons, meltas, pretty much any of these can kill him in a turn or two, so like i said, very easy to aim down, most CC characters have 3++/4++ in and out of CC anyway so its not a HUGE deal him having 3++ in cc tbh if he didnt he'd be bloody awful

To be fair it's kinda hard to shoot him down if he's in a spartan with flare shields and armoured ceramtie. What warlord trait do your run him with?

Child of Terra

[calvin the wraithlord]

I think the best measure of legions is how they perform as a whole against each other?  I mean in essence they all have access to pretty much the same stuff, but certain legions tacitics/ special units really open up alot more venues to use said mutual units, like you can virtually never match a EC army up the middle as our special units are so costly and we'd just lose them to bolterfire, wereass iron hands laugh at such a thing. Also i agree with what  Prodigal Son of Magnus   had to say about phoenix termies, most skilled fighters in a legion of skilled fighters...WS 4, I think the early legions really suffer tbh, its as if forgeworld was trying to keep everything to a certian toned down level to stop people going OMG OP then they just went naa bugger it. I mean look at the state of the blade of laer? Fair enough you can swap it out but really? I Usually find forgeworld to keep things pretty close to fluff but that thing is a joke!!!

[Olis]

I think the best measure of legions is how they perform as a whole against each other?

 

Although this may seem like a good idea, it is not a repeatable, easily measurable system compared to seeing how they perform against a standardised, non-Legion specific list. If you stack each Legion list (or even each player's list) against the same opponent-list, then the results will be directly comparable rather than the rock-paper-scissors outcome if you stood each Legion list against the rest. Of course, it's perfectly possible to compare and contrast the Legion lists, but if we want to rank them by power, then this power has to be in a standardised context, much like any system of measurement the world-over. 

 

Our best bet is to devise a 'Grey' Legion list that we can agree on is 'standard' and then we have the first tool to measure how each Legion would perform on the tabletop.

[calvin the wraithlord]

 

I think the best measure of legions is how they perform as a whole against each other?

 

Although this may seem like a good idea, it is not a repeatable, easily measurable system compared to seeing how they perform against a standardised, non-Legion specific list. If you stack each Legion list (or even each player's list) against the same opponent-list, then the results will be directly comparable rather than the rock-paper-scissors outcome if you stood each Legion list against the rest. Of course, it's perfectly possible to compare and contrast the Legion lists, but if we want to rank them by power, then this power has to be in a standardised context, much like any system of measurement the world-over. 

 

Our best bet is to devise a 'Grey' Legion list that we can agree on is 'standard' and then we have the first tool to measure how each Legion would perform on the tabletop.

 

 

 I suppose another way to do it would be to just take every legion as they are and compare all there special attributes, i.e legion tactics, row, special units/characters/primarchs, and see whos are the best, in comparison and also how they affect the use of generic legion troops, as you are completely right ever the best army could lose to the worsted depending on luck and player skill, so yeah id say the best way is to take all the legions unique aspects and compare them from there 

[calvin the wraithlord]

Sorry for the amount of edits my internet keeps crashing mid post

[Theredknight]

I think the best measure of legions is how they perform as a whole against each other? I mean in essence they all have access to pretty much the same stuff, but certain legions tacitics/ special units really open up alot more venues to use said mutual units, like you can virtually never match a EC army up the middle as our special units are so costly and we'd just lose them to bolterfire, wereass iron hands laugh at such a thing. Also i agree with what Prodigal Son of Magnus had to say about phoenix termies, most skilled fighters in a legion of skilled fighters...WS 4, I think the early legions really suffer tbh, its as if forgeworld was trying to keep everything to a certian toned down level to stop people going OMG OP then they just went naa bugger it. I mean look at the state of the blade of laer? Fair enough you can swap it out but really? I Usually find forgeworld to keep things pretty close to fluff but that thing is a joke!!!

Totally agree, been saying this since extermination lol

Phoenix guard should be i5, ws5, and blades made usable, ap2 in first Round not just if charging. Fleshbane maybe would make them more appealing.

Oh and a points drop!

 

I'm not sure how your tier the legions, there's so many factirs!

[Ishagu]

 

I think the best measure of legions is how they perform as a whole against each other? I mean in essence they all have access to pretty much the same stuff, but certain legions tacitics/ special units really open up alot more venues to use said mutual units, like you can virtually never match a EC army up the middle as our special units are so costly and we'd just lose them to bolterfire, wereass iron hands laugh at such a thing. Also i agree with what Prodigal Son of Magnus had to say about phoenix termies, most skilled fighters in a legion of skilled fighters...WS 4, I think the early legions really suffer tbh, its as if forgeworld was trying to keep everything to a certian toned down level to stop people going OMG OP then they just went naa bugger it. I mean look at the state of the blade of laer? Fair enough you can swap it out but really? I Usually find forgeworld to keep things pretty close to fluff but that thing is a joke!!!

Totally agree, been saying this since extermination lol

Phoenix guard should be i5, ws5, and blades made usable, ap2 in first Round not just if charging. Fleshbane maybe would make them more appealing.

Oh and a points drop!

 

I'm not sure how your tier the legions, there's so many factirs!

Plenty of books I've read say Terminators are impervious to almost all harm, yet they die to Cultist Stubbers on the tabletop.

 

There are bigger lore to game disparities than the phoenix Terminator's weapon skill! :-P

 

But that's all for a different topic! I'd be happy to discuss Legion strengths and weaknesses! Who should we start with?

[GreyCrow]

 

But that's all for a different topic! I'd be happy to discuss Legion strengths and weaknesses! Who should we start with?

 

 

Why not Ultramarines because they're so recent and since you've played a few games with them ? I feel they're a rough diamond. The Legiones Astartes rules don't seem particularly spectacular at first glance but the Interlocking Tactics might make units shine !

 

Because apparently the rerolls to wound/pen don't require that a unit with Legiones Astartes (Ultramarines) shot first, you can fire with your specialty shots with BS5 units including vehicles thanks to Master of Signals, then follow up with lesser quality shots that have a higher rate of fire. I feel that is pretty potent !

Example : BS5 Las Contemptor firing at a Rhino, followed up by boosted BS Plasma Support Squad = dead Rhino. Or Plasma Support Squad opening on Infantry followed by BS5 Legion Tactical squad with Boltguns. In both cases, the opening support will do reliable damage and get high volume of shots attacks the opportunity to reroll the few ones they rolled !

 

Contemptors also have Fleet which is great for charging in then giving the rerolls to charge to any squad ! So, a pretty potent force all accross as long as you can fit high quality openers, flexible support squads that can work as openers for weaker stuff, and large rate of fire units. I think it can get more brutal than people realize at first glance !

[Brother Heinrich]

I'm curious why some people are rating the Word Bearers so highly. Is it only because of how crazy Lorgar is with invisibility? How do any of these legions stack up without their Primarchs/Special Characters?

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

@SkimaskMohawk

The reason I rated World Eaters higher was their CC prowess. Rage right off the bat+Furious Charge after killing a unit and Hatred is an excellent combination and even their basic Tac Marines get it. Not to mention they can still shoot as good as the other legions. Their bonuses turn every unit into a killing machine for free. They also have an excellent special unit, Butchers who are the most dangerous combat unit in HH at this point. Night Lords are high because they are capable of doing CC and shooting equally well and have bonuses to both. In shooting they are getting a cover save bonus, and in CC they get better the more you have and force fear checks. While I'm used to fear being useless in normal 40K I found it very useful in the non-fearless environment of 30k. Those Firedrakes aren't so scary when their WS1. In addition their special units are good, Terror Marines can spam volkites with the best of them and Night Raptors are what Reavers should have been. Their Primarch is excellent, being the only model in 30k and 40k that can automatically get 1st turn and comboed with the ROW will be going first on a 2+ No matter what. Death Guard get they high because of their incredible special units and incredible Rite of War. Volkite Culverin HS squads as troops is worth going DG by itself.

@onehip

Salamanders are rated low because their bonuses aren't very good. Sure they have a really good special unit in the form of Firedrakes, but that's really all they got going for them. It also dosent help that Death Guard get an effectively better version of their flamer rule for free.

@Brother Heinrich

Word Bearers are great for a combination of things. They are the only legion that can field a sizable psychic phase (yet) which lets them take greater advantage of psychic powers than anyone else. They have resistance to morale which helps in the non-ATSKNF enviroment of 30K and can become fearless for a cheap squad upgrade, which also makes them better in combat. Their only downside is ignored by one of their special characters who is also great on his own. Their Possessed are incredible and cheaper than most of the other super units. Their Primarch is incredible, being a tactical toolbox and close combat monster at the same time. And to top it all off, they get daemon allies and Malefic. This automatically gives them a flexibility no one law has on top of their greater psychic flexibility. They effectively have a whole other codex worth of units more than the others that can be allied in with bonuses or summoned for free. They are my number 1 pick because they pile on morale resistance with possible Zealot, 2 good characters, solid special units, an amazing Primarch, and Daemons for almost no drawback.

[SkimaskMohawk]

@SkimaskMohawk

The reason I rated World Eaters higher was their CC prowess. Rage right off the bat+Furious Charge after killing a unit and Hatred is an excellent combination and even their basic Tac Marines get it. Not to mention they can still shoot as good as the other legions. Their bonuses turn every unit into a killing machine for free. They also have an excellent special unit, Butchers who are the most dangerous combat unit in HH at this point. Night Lords are high because they are capable of doing CC and shooting equally well and have bonuses to both. In shooting they are getting a cover save bonus, and in CC they get better the more you have and force fear checks. While I'm used to fear being useless in normal 40K I found it very useful in the non-fearless environment of 30k. Those Firedrakes aren't so scary when their WS1. In addition their special units are good, Terror Marines can spam volkites with the best of them and Night Raptors are what Reavers should have been. Their Primarch is excellent, being the only model in 30k and 40k that can automatically get 1st turn and comboed with the ROW will be going first on a 2+ No matter what. Death Guard get they high because of their incredible special units and incredible Rite of War. Volkite Culverin HS squads as troops is worth going DG by itself.

 

Well its certainly true that WE have crazy good close combat abilities, but the problem is getting to cc alive. If you walk you get shot by the scorpius if you drive you get killed by grav cannons then shot by the scorpius, if you deepstrike you get intercepted. Then you have to get through another shooting phase and overwatch.

 

NLs are good, but their shooting benefits are a 6+ save in the open or a 5+ save with Night Fight; it only lasts for turn one and doesnt stack with other cover saves. Sure its useful if you get hit by high AP, but high quantity of fire that doesn't ignore 3+ saves is what tends to kill you. The combat bonuses have the same weakness WE do, but to correct you Salamanders are immune to fear so Fire Drakes would be the worst unit to charge. Interestingly you compare Reavers to Raptors, yet the Terror Marine is their equivalent in almost every way (high base attacks with ccw, access to volkite, bonus to maneuvering) though they are cheaper, point for point. I'm not sure what you're going on about with going first from curze or their RoW; its Night Fight that curze can force turn one or that you can get on a 2+ from Terror Assault.

 

DG have fairly priced terminators, which is really nice. Whose ranged weapons suck in 30k. Deathshroud are great as a bodyguard swap, but get eaten by normal termies. grave wardens mow through xenos, but there's no xenos in 30k. You're left with decent melee terminators (see above for melee problems). Their RoW...Heavy Support as Troops is good. Does that outweigh not being able to run, Deep Strike, or take more than one Fast Attack? Not for me. The omnipresent Scorpius will eat through those 3+ saves like it always does.

 

 

 

Raven Guard are okay... Situational at best. Their characters are weak (including Corax, IMO), their Sniper unit is actually good, but that's it.

 

Nex is a gimmick at best, fluffy at worst, but thats it for their characters being weak. Maun, while certainly no melee character, is insane for what you get: dirt cheap Master of the Legion. 18" no scatter on deepstriking and spotting for barrage, models get counter attack if they get out of deepstriking vehicles . If on the table you get to  reroll seize initiative, if not you auto come in with whatever vehicle you took him in from reserve. His warlord trait gives reroll reserve rolls for pods. He can also buy a pod for himself, allowing units that don't get access to them to be able to alpha strike

 

This deepstrike synergy leads nicely into their RoW: Preferred enemy ic (small bonus, not great). Reroll to deploying first and therefor going first (huge). Gives the option to take pods for Vets, Tacs, Seekers and Heavy Supports. Also Deathstorms become elites. You're not forced into anything like in Orbital Assault. In exchange you give up on all but one HS slot (hello there scorpius).

 

Mor deythan are solid. The snipers are a chancy, better vs Mechanicum. You want to give them combi plas and infiltrate or combi flame and pod them with maun or outflank.

 

Dark Furies are a melee unit with 3+ saves, but are dirt cheap and can get shroud when deepstriking. (They're decent).

 

Corax. Best mix of melee and support primarch. Most maneuverable, and makes your army even more so by always running 6". Has invisibility (this counters his poor invul). Debuffs deepstrikers, is more reliable deepstriking and can vector strike. This means he can kill flyers. He's not the most obvious beatstick like angron or curze, or the most obvious support like purterabo; its all about in game tactics rather than a grand strategy built around him  

[UltraCaptain]

In regards to the measuring system. I think you need to evaluate the following categories:

 

1. Legion Astares rule

2. Legion unique units

3. RoW

 

This is the baseline legion. If the Legion Astares rule is good, it's a great start. If either unique units or RoW are good, they will be used - else generic versions are better.

 

The real strength comes in the combination of these. Does the legion rules, RoW, unique units have synergy both internal and external (generic units)? Most legions are strong in a few categories. Such as bad legion astares, but good unique unit and primarch. This makes you guide your play to pick the best option (if you want a wow raid mentality).

 

Iron Hands was thought of as good. This is because they 1) have good legion astares rule, 2) good RoW, 3) a nice primarch that buff into even greater synergy (vehicles). All of the above buff what is often great in 30k, tanks. They are not taxed and often a little better than their 40k version. So ofcourse 3x synergy on generic units that was already good. Their only flaw could be their unique legion units. These do not synergy well.

 

So this is often how one rate a legion. What is the optimal build? It will be based on the 3 factors. How do they synergy internal and external?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Its also important to look at the drawbacks a RoW may offer and how restrictive those are

[DuskRaider]

The thing you forget about Death Guard is that the Sergeants can all take Rad Grenades, which considerably weakens an enemy. The Terminators all benefit from being able to take Spartans as Dedicated Transports (technically all Terminators do). This is a huge boon to Grave Wardens, as they can move up the field unharmed, disembark from their Spartan, grab cover saves from their toxic clouds (which also cause damage and force charging enemies to make disorganized assaults), use their Poison Grenades, or even better... The Chem Flamer. I wish they had more of an anti-tank option than Chain Fists (which are still ridiculously cheap) and the Chem Master's Combi-Weapon, but it is what it is. The Legion in general is highly efficient at both walking up the board and clearing out large swathes of enemy infantry, MEQ or otherwise. Then again, they're technically mid-tier I suppose.

 

Deathshroud are cheap, they work quite well as bodyguard with their 2 wounds, and if they find themselves in either close range or CC, they can clean an area up fairly well. Also remember, they're not even taking up a slot when you run them as a Command Squad, so why not? I just wish the Manreapers (and especially Silence) were not Unwieldy. It just doesn't make sense for Mortarion, IMO.

[GreyCrow]

In regards to the measuring system. I think you need to evaluate the following categories:

 

1. Legion Astares rule

2. Legion unique units

3. RoW

 

This is the baseline legion. If the Legion Astares rule is good, it's a great start. If either unique units or RoW are good, they will be used - else generic versions are better.

 

The real strength comes in the combination of these. Does the legion rules, RoW, unique units have synergy both internal and external (generic units)? Most legions are strong in a few categories. Such as bad legion astares, but good unique unit and primarch. This makes you guide your play to pick the best option (if you want a wow raid mentality).

 

Iron Hands was thought of as good. This is because they 1) have good legion astares rule, 2) good RoW, 3) a nice primarch that buff into even greater synergy (vehicles). All of the above buff what is often great in 30k, tanks. They are not taxed and often a little better than their 40k version. So ofcourse 3x synergy on generic units that was already good. Their only flaw could be their unique legion units. These do not synergy well.

 

So this is often how one rate a legion. What is the optimal build? It will be based on the 3 factors. How do they synergy internal and external?

 

One thing to also consider is the generic ROW. I feel that Rites of War represent the particular tactical bias of a Chapter/Cohort/Whatever's Commander and so most Legions should be able to play most Rites of War available with a few obvious exceptions of course.

 

Example : Raven Guard Armoured Spearhead. Yep, bring on the Infiltrating Land Raiders.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The thing you forget about Death Guard is that the Sergeants can all take Rad Grenades, which considerably weakens an enemy. The Terminators all benefit from being able to take Spartans as Dedicated Transports (technically all Terminators do). This is a huge boon to Grave Wardens, as they can move up the field unharmed, disembark from their Spartan, grab cover saves from their toxic clouds (which also cause damage and force charging enemies to make disorganized assaults), use their Poison Grenades, or even better... The Chem Flamer. I wish they had more of an anti-tank option than Chain Fists (which are still ridiculously cheap) and the Chem Master's Combi-Weapon, but it is what it is. The Legion in general is highly efficient at both walking up the board and clearing out large swathes of enemy infantry, MEQ or otherwise. Then again, they're technically mid-tier I suppose.

 

Deathshroud are cheap, they work quite well as bodyguard with their 2 wounds, and if they find themselves in either close range or CC, they can clean an area up fairly well. Also remember, they're not even taking up a slot when you run them as a Command Squad, so why not? I just wish the Manreapers (and especially Silence) were not Unwieldy. It just doesn't make sense for Mortarion, IMO.

 

You need to get to combat to use rad grenades, but now you're doing it with the slowest legion (no running or deepstriking or fast attack) in a list you built to take advantage of shooting. This doesn't seem to mesh well.

 

For spartans you have grav cannons and once you kill that (should be on turn 2) you've now lost a large chunk of your army as those grave wardens are going nowhere fast. If you're loading up on transports to get around the crippling lack of speed then that's more points down the drain and counters the point of being able to load up on HS squads as troops. Either you mow down MEQ or you advance up the board, you can't really afford to do both with the DG RoW.

 

I agreed that deathshroud are a good replacement for normal command squads, but you need to get into cc with a very slow legion (if you're using the RoW) and again goes against the point of the RoW

[ThatOneMarshal]

I'm curious why some people are rating the Word Bearers so highly. Is it only because of how crazy Lorgar is with invisibility? How do any of these legions stack up without their Primarchs/Special Characters?

 

I believe the reason why word bearers are so high because as you mentioned, awesome primarch. They have pretty good special units especially gal vorbrak. The main reason is there battle brothers with deamons. Deamons give word bearers some fun and frankly cheesy combos, like the grimoire with some cataprachtii for a 2++, warp charge batteries for other psyker, bloodthirsters and other greater daemons. And belakor, the cheesiest daemon prince ever. Guaranteed invisibility on a spartan with gal vorbrak and lorgar for example can be really scary. Oh and don't think to get him out of the skies because he have a 2+ cover save. The legion as a whole the legions rules are okay. The leadership shenanigans means your not running and you have a great chance of sweeping the enemy. The legion is pretty physic heavy with lorgar and burning lore. All and all a good legion.

 

 

I would be interested to hear what peoples thought on night lords are.

[Brofist]

When I think about it, there are ~5 considerations I think about when it comes to army recommendations:

• Legion Rules
• Rite of War
• Unique Units
• Flexibility
• Meta

From my experience, I've never been impressed with the Legions from the first book. With the right meta and specific build, however, they ca shine. I would ever rank SOH very highly, but as Hesh Kadesh attests if you play their strengths in the right meta they can dominate. Flexibility is important too as books/armies that can be played several ways tend to be accepted the best. All of this is subjective though, in the end.

I don't think we'll ever, or even should, agree on criteria. But it's fun to think about and see how everybody evaluates the different rules