Scions, The New "Space Marines"?

[Julgolax]

While never really measuring up to the Astartes, the Tempestus Scions as far as I can tell the most elite fighting force humans can be without expensive and dubious genetic manipulation. The only thing they seem to be missing are bolters and power armor like the Sororitas have. So, am I right in thinking that these guys are the likely future of the Imperium's finest since they are essentially an easily replaced asset compared to Astartes? I mean... these guys are taking on infested space hulks, Chaos Marines and even Daemons and coming out with the big W. I'm starting to think I should give up on a custom AA chapter and make my own custom TS regiment. :D

[sitnam]

I haven't gotten the chance to read the new Scion or Skitarii codexes, but it seems to me the Scions are up there in terms of elite human forces from a fluff perspective. That said I think the Skitarii and Sororitas are on fairly equal footings; from a fluff perspective I'd rank the Sisters higher just because in the fluff power armor is leagues better then carapace. Not just due to protection but the strength enhancing as well. Bolters vs Hotshots is interesting; the latter give the Scions an edge vs bolter armed Sisters and Space Marines, though the higher power of the bolter gives it a bit more versatility. As far as intangibles such as fighting spirit I'd think its a fairly even contest between the three.

[Son of Carnelian]

The thing is that the Scions are not easily replaceable. It takes years of training, incredible military discipline, and far more resources to arm and equip them than other base human forces. So while they might prove more readily available than Space Marines, they're still not as common as a conscript or even a guardsman. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Let's also address the elephant in the room shall we? Tempestus Scions are nothing new. They're Stormtroopers, and stormtroopers have been around since at least 2nd edition. 

 

They got their mini-dex so you could field them in quantity with other allies. Scions are simply the new stormtroopers, though I wish their wargear hadn't been altered (I wish they'd all kept their hotshot laspistol and CCW). 

[march10k]

What's a Tempestus Scion?  I have an army of Kasrkin...

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

It's the Codex entry and mini codex that has the rules that used to be stormtroopers. You know that thing, that people used to use Kasrkin for. It's also the name of the new plastic models that replaced the old awesome Kasrkin. 

[Canadian_F_H]

Pretty sure he was being sarcastic...

 

IMO, they messed up giving scions ap3 weapons... Ap5 with Ap 3 Rending on a 5+ would have been a bit more toned down, but still pretty good.

 

And a point or 2 cheaper to go with the slight Nerf.

 

And that's coming from a guy with kasrkin in his IG army...

 

Marines are a real bunch of paper tigers now a days and they really aren't that different from a decade ago. Every body else just got a lot better at killing marines.

[sitnam]

Thats not so much a problem with space marines at it is with the problem of scale of modern 40k. A decade ago the only way to get a baneblade was to buy resin and the biggest walkers around were the likes of Dreadnaughts and Wraithlord. The good old Tactical Squad, meant to be the elite of the Imperium, are left in the dust nowadays

 

I feel that this topic is more of a fluff discussion however, though thats just my personal opinion

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Pretty sure he was being sarcastic...

IMO, they messed up giving scions ap3 weapons... Ap5 with Ap 3 Rending on a 5+ would have been a bit more toned down, but still pretty good.

And a point or 2 cheaper to go with the slight Nerf.

And that's coming from a guy with kasrkin in his IG army...

Marines are a real bunch of paper tigers now a days and they really aren't that different from a decade ago. Every body else just got a lot better at killing marines.

1) I know, I was kinda being a smart .

2) Hotshots have always been the killier lasgun. Sure they have AP3, but they also have 6" less range, in order to get in range to mass those shots, they have to be within charge range of marines.

3) They're price is fine, they lost pistols and ccw's, and lost 15 points for the base unit. They're fine, and competitively priced in terms of space marines.

4) Stormtroopers have always been good at killing marines, I'm sorry but your point makes no sense to me.

No marine player worth anything is going to underestimate the worth of his tac squads. No good player will underestimate the worth of his basic troops choices.

[WarriorFish]

Stormies are an elite, more like "traditional" Spec Ops but they're not exactly replaceable. It takes a lot of training as mentioned and they're well equipped so they won't replace Marines as that's not their intention.

 

I think of them as Guardsmen to the next level. Still human but the cream of the crop with all the training that the Imperium can provide over a lifetime of service. From the Schola the orphans are almost literally born into service, spending their lives in a strict training regime. It's no coincidence this is also where the Sisters and Commissars come from!

[march10k]

I don't think hellguns were a mistake, and they're not overpowered.  In addition to needing to be danger-close to the genetically modified superhuman to get a shot off in the first place, they also need 5s to wound.  If there was a mistake, it was in allowing you to field an entire army of them, or put an entire platoon of them in an elites slot.  The change in balance wasn't the granting of AP3, they've always had that, and they've always been niche specialists that you rarely saw.  The change in balance was that they were given command squads with four special weapons, orders, special vehicles, and a codex of their own. 

[Julgolax]

I see what you're all saying. I suppose you're right when it comes to the training and the time it takes to build new elite soldiers, but I do have to take one thing into question.

 

Remember all that these are the indefatigable numbers of humanity and these men of the Scions regiments, however creamy they are of the crop, still can outnumber Astartes by a huge amount. There's more or less than 1000 chapters at any given time, each with around 1000 battle brothers, save for the Black Templars who we'll say are around 5000 for argument's sake. That's a rough estimate of 1,005,000 space marines throughout the immensity of the entire galaxy. That's like .0001% of a single hive-world's population which is in turn a tiny fraction of the trillions of human beings throughout the galaxy. The Militarum would probably make up about 25% of humanity's total population and among them, you have the Scions. They must number AT LEAST 10 million altogether, probably a lot more. While they aren't genetic children of Primarchs, super soldiers wearing tank armor and firing mini rocket launchers, they are still technically humanity's finest soldiers who outnumber Astartes 10 to 1 at least.  You can't exactly say they aren't easy to replace int he grand scheme of things. Mere training and equipping is easier to work with than geneseeding. Any little boy can grow up and be a Scion, but it takes a special genetic compatibility to raise an Astartes. (Although, that little piece of important lore seems to have been retconned, now any caveman or hive thug child can be an Astartes it seems...)

 

The point I was trying to make is, as an Imperial Commander, I'd probably be more able and willing to send in the Scions than stand in line for begging Astartes to come save us. There's more of them and they cost less, lore-wise.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Personally I see Scions as the ODSTs to the Guardsman's UNSC Marine. They're the dedicated, well-equipped Spec Ops force sent into the most deadly missions as a scalpel to slice the jugular of whatever's most valuable to the enemy. They're the apex of what a normal human can hope to be in terms of training, equipment and dedication to the cause. Above and beyond Veterans, yet still mere mortal humans at the core of it.

 

IMO, they also represent a bit of an issue in the pricing of 40K, as it appears they pay about 5pts for their Hotshot Lasguns, yet must pay the same to trade them out for special weapons as a Guardsman would for his lasggun. Space Marines are the same, actually.

[Canadian_F_H]

Pretty sure he was being sarcastic...

IMO, they messed up giving scions ap3 weapons... Ap5 with Ap 3 Rending on a 5+ would have been a bit more toned down, but still pretty good.

And a point or 2 cheaper to go with the slight Nerf.

And that's coming from a guy with kasrkin in his IG army...

Marines are a real bunch of paper tigers now a days and they really aren't that different from a decade ago. Every body else just got a lot better at killing marines.

1) I know, I was kinda being a smart .

2) Hotshots have always been the killier lasgun. Sure they have AP3, but they also have 6" less range, in order to get in range to mass those shots, they have to be within charge range of marines.

3) They're price is fine, they lost pistols and ccw's, and lost 15 points for the base unit. They're fine, and competitively priced in terms of space marines.

4) Stormtroopers have always been good at killing marines, I'm sorry but your point makes no sense to me.

No marine player worth anything is going to underestimate the worth of his tac squads. No good player will underestimate the worth of his basic troops choices.

Not true.

Storm troopers used to have ap5 not ap3.

But that was way back....

I'm just saying as an IG player back in 2004, if my storm troopers went from ap5 to ap5 with ap3 rending on a 5+, that would have been amazing.

They needed to step up, but they took a flying leap.

[Julgolax]

Pretty sure he was being sarcastic...

IMO, they messed up giving scions ap3 weapons... Ap5 with Ap 3 Rending on a 5+ would have been a bit more toned down, but still pretty good.

And a point or 2 cheaper to go with the slight Nerf.

And that's coming from a guy with kasrkin in his IG army...

Marines are a real bunch of paper tigers now a days and they really aren't that different from a decade ago. Every body else just got a lot better at killing marines.

1) I know, I was kinda being a smart .

2) Hotshots have always been the killier lasgun. Sure they have AP3, but they also have 6" less range, in order to get in range to mass those shots, they have to be within charge range of marines.

3) They're price is fine, they lost pistols and ccw's, and lost 15 points for the base unit. They're fine, and competitively priced in terms of space marines.

4) Stormtroopers have always been good at killing marines, I'm sorry but your point makes no sense to me.

No marine player worth anything is going to underestimate the worth of his tac squads. No good player will underestimate the worth of his basic troops choices.

Not true.

Storm troopers used to have ap5 not ap3.

But that was way back....

I'm just saying as an IG player back in 2004, if my storm troopers went from ap5 to ap5 with ap3 rending on a 5+, that would have been amazing.

They needed to step up, but they took a flying leap.

Grav-chutes? :D

I'm getting the feeling people are mistaking this as a rules comparison thread, I'm talking about lore. :P

[WarriorFish]

Yes, let's keep this to the lore as requested.

 

In the background Marines are unstoppable killing machines, so while Stormies are indeed a very capable fighting force given the choice you'd rather send in Marines. However Marines are rare, and very much their own beasts so should they turn up and help that's very good luck but not something you can control in any way.

[Trevak Dal]

Really, I'd say they are the "Old" Space Marines, since they are armed with the BEST (mass produced) weapons and armor available from standard STCs-they are Elite in the sense that it probably requires more effort to make the Carapace plates fit for individuals and is dismissed most of the time, and Hellguns are probably temperamental to say the least.

 

So I imagine when the Emperor was looking out at Earth, and saw enemy forces armed with Exo suits and Ork-Like guns (that the exo suits were designed to shoot) to combat the monstrous mutants that had been made into weapons, he took a page from the Avengers and said "What we need is a dash of all this stuff..."

My Speculation:

 

 

His first effort were Thunderwarriors-Superior in every way to astartes, but built with several flaws so that they would not as likely survive and new warlords would not be spawned from the Prisoners and Thugs he augmented into supersoldiers.

 

The second effort was to streamline and make Thunderwarriors consistent, so he developed the Custodates-which were better in every way to the Thunderwarrirors BUT took way too long to develop, but the answer was close...so he and his Crew (Because as awesome as the Emperor was, he did not do this alone and he still had wars to win on Earth and Sol) made the Primarchs-each with unique genetraits and using the Chimeric qualities he'd discovered/invented with the Custodates and enhancing them.

 

His intent was to fully indoctrinate each of his "sons", to ensure the least likely chance of betrayal.  Chaos happened-and off they go, but he's got what he needs, the blueprints to make mass produced, well indoctrinated super soldiers capable of fighting on Earth and Beyond, with Weapons and Armor that could defeat alien and human main-line battle gear, superior discipline and resiliancy without the flaws of the Thunder Warriors, and encased in full powered armor instead of just Exo Suits.

 

The civilizations of Humans that stood against Space Marines probably crapped themselves when they saw the Refridgerator sized monsters running at them, never mind the ones who wore Reactor repair armor retrofitted with Guns and energy weapons.

The "Old Space Marines" (Scions) couldn't keep up.  They had tactics, weapons and know how-but against an unending tide of Ceremite that pooped out bolter rounds, not even carapace armor can withstand that.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

In terms of lore, I'm with coffee on this one. Stromtroopers (I hate scions) are the best humanity can produce, genetic enhancement notwithstanding.

[Canadian_F_H]

I always saw the IG and storm troopers in terms of soldiers from the modern era.

 

IG are strongly based on western and Soviet forces from ww1 until Vietnam. Heck flack armor is what the armor available in Vietnam was called, as it protected you from flack, ie shrapnel from mortars, grenades etc, but not much else.

 

Storm troopers are more modern, post Vietnam. Like us and British troops in Iraq with ceramic plates in their armor , and heavy neck guards and other pieces of armor, and part Vietnam armies are typically smaller and much better equipped than pie Vietnam.

[Julgolax]

Awww, I like "Scions". :P Stormtroopers is too generic.

 

I dont know, I think even the Emperor himself realized that he made a mistake with the Astartes because even he had a dark half to him which came to the fore during the worst age in human history. I personally see the Astra Militarum as the fighting force of the Imperium, and the Astartes as just a remnant of the past too important to do away with, but still a mistake that keeps on mistaking. That's why I kinda like Astartes, not just because they're superhuman warriors but also because they're a glorious paradox.

 

Now, back on topic. What I do wonder is what kind of treatments do these guys possibly undergo, such as genetics and cybernetics. This is the era of superhumans, surely not just the Astartes get the gene treatments and cybernetic enhancements to empower select individuals worthy of them. From Lexicanum I read that they're put through a life-long training regimen that is comparable to the Astartes which is annoying, but not unexpected. My question is, how much can a human body take from this training and lifestyle before his heart just gives out from the brutality? It sounds like these guys don't sleep, don't eat, and don't even have to perform bodily functions just like Astartes don't. How do they physically survive this kind of training? When they say their training is brutal, in the 40K universe, you know it's BRUTAL.

[march10k]

I like the pre-astronaut models best...I mean...they don't look like they're even wearing armor (which just suggests that it's custom-fit and low profile), and berets...sounds very SAS/ODA if you ask me...the astronauts make sense since stormtroopers were focused on deep-space boarding actions in that generation of the fluff...there were inquisitorial stormtroopers, sure, but most of them were naval infantry...Kasrkin are sexy models, but they were a bit heavy and clunky, from a fluff perspective.  The new ones return to the special forces theme in terms of fluff, but the models are stupid, "South African mercenaries wearing 15th century carapaces," blech!

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Pretty sure he was being sarcastic...

IMO, they messed up giving scions ap3 weapons... Ap5 with Ap 3 Rending on a 5+ would have been a bit more toned down, but still pretty good.

And a point or 2 cheaper to go with the slight Nerf.

And that's coming from a guy with kasrkin in his IG army...

Marines are a real bunch of paper tigers now a days and they really aren't that different from a decade ago. Every body else just got a lot better at killing marines.

1) I know, I was kinda being a smart .

2) Hotshots have always been the killier lasgun. Sure they have AP3, but they also have 6" less range, in order to get in range to mass those shots, they have to be within charge range of marines.

3) They're price is fine, they lost pistols and ccw's, and lost 15 points for the base unit. They're fine, and competitively priced in terms of space marines.

4) Stormtroopers have always been good at killing marines, I'm sorry but your point makes no sense to me.

No marine player worth anything is going to underestimate the worth of his tac squads. No good player will underestimate the worth of his basic troops choices.

Not true.

Storm troopers used to have ap5 not ap3.

But that was way back....

I'm just saying as an IG player back in 2004, if my storm troopers went from ap5 to ap5 with ap3 rending on a 5+, that would have been amazing.

They needed to step up, but they took a flying leap.

Just as an aside, AP used to work differently a few editions back.

[Father Mehman]

I wanted to comment on the topic but got lost in reading the thread .

[SpecialIssue]

Stormtroopers are the standard sci-fi trope of high-tech space soldier, armed with advanced technology, the best training, being professional and elite, etc. with the usual 40k twist.

 

Imagine the best special forces teams today, with all the fanaticism and ruthlessness of the Nazi SS. In any other universe, these are the Bad Guys. Completely brainwashed, and minor gene-grafting mean they are the best warriors humanity can produce. The peak of human efficiency.

 

In my canon, there are no Scions, only ruthless Imperial Stormtroopers.

 

Space Marines are more like a sci-fi reimagining of a Greek legend, every single one an unstoppable Achilles, with the capabilities of a tank in a man-sized package. They aren't human, but transhuman monsters.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

We are the Emperors Elite, the Sardaukar Stormtroopers​ Scions (stupid name).