Scions, The New "Space Marines"?

[Canadian_F_H]

Well it worked exactly the same in third except that now ap2 and ap1 help with tank busting. Other then that same ap5 bypass 5+ and 6+ armor. Unless I missed something else in the 7th edition brb...

 

Any how, fluff wise, sounds like they turned them up to 11. Haven't read a lot of the most recent stuff so I don't know about that.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Honestly, I didn't play enough in 3rd, and I didn't play at all 4th, 5th and 6th eds, so maybe my memory is faulty (likely, given the several concussions I've suffered... and the vast and varied amounts of knowledge packed in my head). 

 

As for turning them up to 11, Warhammer is trying to compete with warmachine's popularity (despite it being the older system, and more fun). Anyway back to fluff, since this is a fluff thread. I've only read what's in the codex, and not much of it, since all I want is the rules, I'll make my own fluff that's consistent with the old lore.

[SW1]

I like the older look an feel of stormtroopers. Infact I've gone as far as ditching the new models/kit and getting hold of as many as possible of the old mono-pose ones. ;)

[Emicus]

Would it be fair to say that scions/stormtroopers are humans that COULD have been space marines if they had been recruited at the right time? Of course they aren't on the level of marines because of the inplants and genemodification. But yeah, if a recruiting ship doesn't come, doesn't mean those badasses that were destined to become marines suddenly stop being great soldiers.

[Canadian_F_H]

Would it be fair to say that scions/stormtroopers are humans that COULD have been space marines if they had been recruited at the right time? Of course they aren't on the level of marines because of the inplants and genemodification. But yeah, if a recruiting ship doesn't come, doesn't mean those badasses that were destined to become marines suddenly stop being great soldiers.

That is a viable hypothesis.

[SW1]

They're the orphans of imperial servants. Basically once you join some part of the imperial machine even your children become useful tools. The orphanage is basically bootcamp. Depending on how you do you become an inquisitor, a sister of some form (from hospitaller to battle sister), a storm trooper, commissar, an officer (fleet/military) or some other useful field. You fail and your not going to live long enough to worry about where you'll fit in the once you've come of age. That level of brutality ... Live or die trying is what makes the scions what they are.

[SW1]

Been thinking about those old stormtroopers models and how to update them. Does this work?

[Father Mehman]

Although I've read through this thread several times, I'm not sure what it is entirely about. I know what the original post was about, and I plan on getting to that, but where was it hijacked by Militarum Tempestus haters? If you don't like the models, don't buy them. The rules aren't "good" in your opinion? Don't use them. But can everyone please stop whining and downing them? Not only do you sound like little boys arguing over what Transformer figure is better but you could be throwing away someone's idea for an army. When I first got back in the game all I did was listen to people who thought they knew what the hell they were talking about and I took it as gospel. Let's show at least a modicum of positivity in our sub-forum and try to make someone's day, not hate over something so much that people don't even want to post on the thread.

Ranting over, I shall now pass into fluffy mode.

I don't think it's fair to even compare an Astartes to a human, elite or not. You're talking about two things that are related only by what side they are on in the struggle for the galaxy. Let's compare and contrast the two forces in question, shall we?

Militarum Tempestus

The elite of the elite. Born from high-ranking officer, bureaucrat, and Adeptus Munitorum families (and sometimes the bastards of the Ecclesiarchy ), orphaned by war, the young children are sent to, oftentimes secret, Schola Progenium scattered all across the galaxy. It is here where they will be brought up to fear the God-Emperor, train their bodies and minds for any threat, and, above all else, learn to follow orders. What use is a cog if it cannot do its job?

However and where ever they come to the Schola Progenium matters little. Some facilities have a mind-swipe de-facto policy while others trust that the training and punishing scholastic regimen will assure no child will hold themselves as the better of any other based on lucky breeding. It is something powerful to be given life. It is something altogether more awe inspiring to be given a purpose. The Schola Progenium gives meaning and purpose to these wayward souls where, surely, there would have been no hope if they had been left to chance. So, by forcible amnesia and means are these "students" given a new name, a new saviour, and a new hope.

The training is brutal. Only the brightest will advance while the lackluster will be escorted away, never to be seen again. Both the young boys and girls will be put through trials that adults seldom find themselves in, let alone a child or teenager. Any deviation in course is severely punished by the harshest terms, for how else to establish stone-like discipline in a mind so young? They would never go so far as to order a child to kill their best friend, would they? In war, sometimes you must do worse than that to achieve victory.

Students that excel in martial prowess and are fit in mind, body, and soul will be given another purpose after they have finished their primary studies: that of the protectors of mankind. Like the shepherds of Ancient Terra, they will answer the call of their flock and destroy whatever threat they may face. Here we find raw recruits for the Adepta Sororitas and the Militarum Tempestus, based on the random chance of gender. Those that have physical defects or are of a more "mind over might" mentality will become skilled Adepts within the working machine of the Imperium. Woe to the schemer and saboteur if he comes under the gaze of these individuals! The final place for these newly graduated youths to go would be the Officio Prefectus: Offices of the Commissariat. Let us not dwell too much on these stalwart leaders of the Mighty Army of He-Upon-the-Golden-Throne.

Our topic lends itself to the Militarum Tempestus so we shall venture there. They are known by many names but the one that has stuck (and is Departo Munitorum sanctioned) has been "Scions". At first glance, this name could be seen as an incongruence with who they are and what they do. Suffice to say, they are all sons of the Emperor and His Holy Imperium; royal heirs to the throne and seated at His right hand.

The training of these young men doesn't stop or abate because they have finished their primary studies. Instead, it intensifies to hone them into righteous killers for the Imperial cause. Every martial bout is for blood, every weapon exercise utilizes live-fire ammunition, and every order must be carried out to perfection. If they are ruthless about nothing else, an order is sacred and must be acted upon because every soldier is integral to the fine-tunings of the great war machine that is the Imperial Guard.

Their armour is ceramite and their weapons can kill even the Astartes, but the Scions' true strength lies in the carrying-out of orders. Truly, these are the blessed inheritors of His will made manifest.

Space Marines

Gene-inheritors of their ancestors, these superhuman men are the last, and sometimes first, say in the war with the Traitor, the heretic, and the foul xenos scum that populate the galaxy. Taken from their families, homes, and sometimes even worlds before the prime of their lives, these stalwart defenders of Mankind are the scalpel to which is excised the most vilest forms of cancers across the stars.

The recruits are put through torturous testing to find even the smallest bit of defect, mind, body, or otherwise. If they pass this test, they must undergo a complete transformation, giving away their humanity to protect the human race. Each Chapter, or group, of Space Marines has a different process for this transformation but they all share the same function. The Blood Angels Chapter have their Sarcophagi and the Ultramarines utilize tried-and-true surgical and psycho-surgical techniques whereas the Space Wolves and Iron Hands have much darker and arcane ways of building their elite protectors of the galaxy. Each recruit is given a certain set of new organs and, if they bond, he is then sent on his way for brutal training which will last his entire genetically-altered life. If the organs do not implant correctly, he is still of use to the Chapter, of course, not in any way in which he thinks.

These supermen are then utilized in Squads to destroy and crush the enemy. Like the Scions, they too have ceramite shells, but their's are of a more intricate nature. This does not make them weak or fragile, mind you. The armour is merely another augmentation for the otherwise inhuman elites. That they know no fear and are armed with the righteous fury of the time-tested bolter, or boltgun as some call it, is enough. They are spoken about in prayers and in hushed whispers throughout the galaxy. They are the ultimate defenders of something they have left behind: their Humanity.

[Kilofix]

Lore wise I agree with the OP:

 

Astartes were more common during the Legion / Crusade days.

 

But nowadays (in 40K), Astartes are actually quite rare. Whole populations will have never seen an Astartes ever in their lifetimes.

 

If a "Elite" troops were required for some mission, one would be more likely to end up with Stormtroopers rather than Astartes, or Ad Mech forces or Sororitas for that matter.

[captain sox]

We are the Emperors Elite, the Sardaukar Stormtroopers​ Scions (stupid name).

I normally agree with you, but on this one I don't. I don't mind the name Scion... Stormtrooper is way too generic. And wouldn't you agree Space Marines is kinda a cop-out lame name for an Elite soldier?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I would agree Sox. Space marine is pretty lame and generic, but Astartes doesn't really trip off the tongue as well. I really like Stormtrooper, it's what I've known them as for 4 editions, and it's what I'll continue to call them. As generic as stormtrooper is, it is descriptive of what they do, unlike scion.

[Master Antaeus]

In terms of prestige, I would sat MT and AS are likely peers.  They're actually pretty similar once you strip away the wargear, but it is the wargear that informs their purpose and scope.

 

Sisters have power armor, bolter, flamer and melta.  Their primary job is to kill and subdue other humans at the behest of the ecclesiarch and their secondary job is to guard ministorum facilities.  They have high leadership because they come up against moral threats frequently.

 

Scions, on the other hand, have carapace armor (less wealth to throw around compared to ecclesiarchy) grenades, grav chutes, valks, and fast transports.  Most importantly, they have the AP3 lasgun.  You wouldn't need an AP3 lasgun to fight humans.  You would need it to fight Space marines, Chaos Marines, Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Daemons and.. Sisters.  In my opinion, the Scions edge out the Sisters in terms of prestige and flexibility because they have to be able to wage war on a much wider scope.

 

Are they space marines?  No.  But probably not for the reason you think.  Scions have a very narrow focus because they have so few units.  Currently, 20 years of codex development has given Space Marines very deep pockets and tons of different units and loadouts to choose from, allowing you to fight just about any way you want.  Scions do not have this.  In the future, if this changes (and if they get a little cheaper per model; the rumors say tactical marines will cost 13 pts each) then you might begin to associate fielding MT Scions to combat any threat. 

 

Though for my money, I would not count on another Scions Codex.  We will probably get rolled back into AM/IG.

[SW1]

 

Would it be fair to say that scions/stormtroopers are humans that COULD have been space marines if they had been recruited at the right time? Of course they aren't on the level of marines because of the inplants and genemodification. But yeah, if a recruiting ship doesn't come, doesn't mean those badasses that were destined to become marines suddenly stop being great soldiers.

That is a viable hypothesis.

Just came across the answer ... It's basically not likely. Page 9 of the guard codex has a section called the schola progenium. Says "the schola strives to ensure that children born to those of quality are neither abandoned, nor squandered as a potential resource", "it's the belief of those who maintain these institutions that, through sufficient rigour, any youth of appropriate origins can be turned into a valuable servant of the imperium".

 

So you don't have to be marine material to do well in the schola but if you were it'd help. ;)

[Kontakt]

If you don't have the aptitude for soldiering, you aren't likely to make it through the schola. High born or not, what they want is soldiers. Good ones that unquestioningly follow orders.

With so few space marines in the imperium, a rapid strike force that can be relied upon and kept in reserve is a good thing to have. Being able to provide that on short notice rather than desperately petitioning a marine chapter is a bonus.

They don't need to be the best soldiers in the galaxy, just good enough to do the job.