morroccomole Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 I orginally picked up a Hellhound for the express purpose of using the Bane Wolf variant to melt my opponents space marines into piles of bio-goo. I have been playing around with them in different forms and here are some of my thoughts. Bane Wolf: I have never been fortunate enough to get this thing into range to see what the chem cannon can really do. My opponents either prioritize it as a fast-moving threat and blow it up, or it gets immobilized on a tree root or something.Hellhound: Sounds great in theory, but there are too many models (in my gaming community) that have better than 4+ saves. Turn one I get it in range, and it hits a squad, and maybe kills one or two guys, then it's curtains and an easy killpoint.Devil Dog: BS3 makes that scatter a harsh mistress. On the other hand, my enemies have generally ignored it because it needs to get somewhat lucky to hit anything. My thought is, maybe make it a Heavy instead of Blast, and give it a slightly longer melta-range for the loss of coverage? I have been consistently disappointed with its performance in all the games I have used it in. In my experience, for what it costs, it hits way below what another 125-135 points spent elsewhere would get me. Thoughts? Suggestions? Commiseration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pudelhund Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 How many other tanks do you run? I imagine that a Bane Wolf flourishes in a list where the enemy's inadequate AT leaves things unchecked. I intend to use one to protect Pask from deep striking AT infantry and as a counter-attacking unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morroccomole Posted May 31, 2015 Author Share Posted May 31, 2015 At the moment I only have two Leman Russ', two Chimeras, and I usually always bring a Manticore and/or Basilisk. I will admit, I brought the Bane Wolf specifically in low point games, and I think that was my only vehicle. Still, at 500-750 points, opponents aren't exactly spamming anti-tank.Edit: also, it's the only thing that can move 12" up the board on turn one, so opponents usually go after it. Maybe if I had three, they would be more useful, but then I'm sinking points into disposable vehicles, when I should be treating my infantry as disposable, and the vehicles as my hitters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 The Devildog is a big game hunter - the bigger the easier to hit too. It can also threaten heavy infantry nicely but it's a bit niche for it. The chassis is solid medium armour, but needs back up so they do best in mechanised lists where your Chimeras help with AV12 saturation. Remember that being a fire magnet is also useful, as it lets you predict your opponent's movements to an extent. I like to use them as part of a pair of some kind with another dangerous unit, for example a Demolisher or ideally another Banewolf. Your opponent must then decide to either focus on one and be subject to the ire of the other or split his efforts and risk doing nothing. No bad thing ever comes from forcing your opponent to make difficult decisions! At low point games it's not a good choice I think, a bit expensive and short ranges and as your only vehicle it'd take all the hits. Guard are slow to get going so low point games mean you need to be very efficient and sadly that means some units are less viable for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 The hellhound is actually a lot better than you give it credit for. When it's needed, no other unit will do, like when your opponent puts some superscoring snipers on an objective in 2++ cover 30" away from any other unit...cruise on over, have a BBQ, and flip the objective! It's also great for blasting past an enemy daemon rush and getting those pesky warp charge batteries lurking in the backfield to cut down his summoning potential. anything clustered behind an ADL is a fantastic target. The tough part is figuring out what to do with it when there's no decent target. I have two ideas. Either it turboes up the field and parks sideways in front of that landraiderload of assault terminators to delay their movement across the table, or it plays coy, like a wounded bike squadron and just stays out of the way in the hopes of scoring linebreaker and maybe picking off a neglected objective in the late game. If you're just throwing it up the middle of the table and forcing a couple of 3+ armor saves, of course it's going to fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 I also believe you aren't utilizing it to its most effective potential. I've played against a single Hellhound before with no anti-tank and it was something to reckon with before I assaulted it in Close Combat. Of course, that game was against an opponent that said he was playing Imperial Guard and neglected to mention he was running an all Mechanized list. That wasn't a fair or fun game at all. Anyway, if you want to use your model as a Bane Wolf, I recommend getting another and fielding them as a pair, like what the Lord Commissar said. Echoing March's statements, letting the thing loose and hoping for some kills isn't how it was designed to be used. Yeah, you can do that, but it won't get you anywhere, as you've seen for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 an opponent that said he was playing Imperial Guard and neglected to mention he was running an all Mechanized list. That wasn't a fair or fun game at all. Really? I think announcing in advance what codex he was using was exceptionally generous. I don't really pity you if you optimized against him based on faulty assumptions about what he was fielding and it bit you in the ass. You should play an all-comers list and let your tactics do the winning, not your list-hacking. If I'm playing mechanized Deathwing, and my opponent is drawing up his list at game time, my models stay in the case, and at best, I'll tell him I'm playing DA. I have great distaste for writing lists that work exceptionally well against a known opponent, yet don't work well at all against most other enemies. For that reason, and because I like variety myself, I rarely bring the same list two games in a row, unless it's pre-coordinated practice with a list for a specific tournament. /edit/ If you see me playing air cav three weeks running and adjust your list to beat that, I expect you to accept that your surprise is self-inflicted when I show up with sisters instead just when you've dumped all of your AP3 in favor of anti-valkyrie warfare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morroccomole Posted May 31, 2015 Author Share Posted May 31, 2015 I appreciate the advice! I'll keep it on the bench until I get more armored units that can spread the brunt. Thus far, I'm liking foot slog lists, so that could be a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 an opponent that said he was playing Imperial Guard and neglected to mention he was running an all Mechanized list. That wasn't a fair or fun game at all. Really? I think announcing in advance what codex he was using was exceptionally generous. I don't really pity you if you optimized against him based on faulty assumptions about what he was fielding and it bit you in the ass. You should play an all-comers list and let your tactics do the winning, not your list-hacking. If I'm playing mechanized Deathwing, and my opponent is drawing up his list at game time, my models stay in the case, and at best, I'll tell him I'm playing DA. I have great distaste for writing lists that work exceptionally well against a known opponent, yet don't work well at all against most other enemies. For that reason, and because I like variety myself, I rarely bring the same list two games in a row, unless it's pre-coordinated practice with a list for a specific tournament. /edit/ If you see me playing air cav three weeks running and adjust your list to beat that, I expect you to accept that your surprise is self-inflicted when I show up with sisters instead just when you've dumped all of your AP3 in favor of anti-valkyrie warfare. Are you accusing me of list-tailoring? I'm not sure. Seeing as how I've never list-tailored in my life, it makes no difference to me either way. The game in question was an Iron Hands all-comer list versus Mechanized-WAAC Imperial Guard. The gaming group I was in was very casual and we all knew what armies we would be bringing ahead of time. Hell, we even knew what "special" units the other guy was going to be using just so we'd be prepared to bring a camera. I'm a firm believer of not putting a casual gamer in a game against a "must win" gamer. We don't offer the WAAC player a challenge and they bring cookie-cutter lists that aren't great for Narrative play. It's a lose-lose situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Accusing, no, just opining that if you were, the outcome was your own fault. I don't often see people complain that they were unfairly surprised by a build in a codex with which they were at least moderately familiar. I wonder about the "WAAC" label, though. Could that be sour grapes over the loss? Fully mechanized tends not to be the most competitive way to play guard, it throws away two of our strengths: numbers and orders, besides which the looooong AV10 sides of chimeras require careful management (if you leave your deployment zone, they're really hard to hide from enemy shooting!). Nothing's worse than getting your transport popped by the free stormbolter on a rhino! Anyway, when your all-comers list is "with no antitank," (mind-blowing!!!), that's almost as bad as a list-tailoring fail, and certainly a self-inflicted injury! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Accusing, no, just opining that if you were, the outcome was your own fault. I don't often see people complain that they were unfairly surprised by a build in a codex with which they were at least moderately familiar. I wonder about the "WAAC" label, though. Could that be sour grapes over the loss? Fully mechanized tends not to be the most competitive way to play guard, it throws away two of our strengths: numbers and orders, besides which the looooong AV10 sides of chimeras require careful management (if you leave your deployment zone, they're really hard to hide from enemy shooting!). Nothing's worse than getting your transport popped by the free stormbolter on a rhino! Anyway, when your all-comers list is "with no antitank," (mind-blowing!!!), that's almost as bad as a list-tailoring fail, and certainly a self-inflicted injury! I've seen this idea around the web that if someone doesn't agree with or like to play against Win-At-All-Cost players, there must be some loss they are bemoaning. No. I would equally complain if we talked about the other times when I had won against him. For me, it's about the lists, the attitude, the mentality of who is drawn to play in this manner. Is it fine to play in this manner? Absolutely! It's not who I want to play against as we don't both gain anything from our games. Seeing an All-Comers list with no Anti-Tank would be a fun treat to see. There is only so much that list can do against something like nine tanks, sadly. Should I have played differently in the off-chance that I could've won? No, I don't think so. That way lies madness as you ask yourself "if" too many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morroccomole Posted June 1, 2015 Author Share Posted June 1, 2015 Fortunately I play within a group of friends, an not at a FLGS with random neckbeards popping in to cream me with a 1337 list. The most tailoring I do is thinking about which army I am going up against, and making small adjustments. Orks? Flamers, and maybe swap the lascannon teams for mortars. Space marines? Just the opposite. Chaos and Chaos daemons? Heck if I know, I'll bring whatever junk I can cram in the points limit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 while i can definetly understand mehmanns point about an armoured force being hard to play against it all depends on circumstances. i'm a armoured company player myself and my opponent knows that, so his lists are always somewhat tailored to deal with heavy armour. he however constantly swaps forces, so i'll never know what i'll face, thus making me play a balanced armoured company. what i think is key to how you experience a list is the players attitude during the game... either way, this topic is derailing. lets get it back on topic! from my eperience the bane-and devildog and even the hellhound are simply way overcosted, especially now that the leman russed became significantly cheaper. i'm hoping this changes when a new codex comes and those tanks get their point reduction, together with the basilisk and manticores. 'i'dd say 80-100 pts for the hellhound variants and similar pricing for the artillery. obviously this is just wishfull thinking but hey, one can dream right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 I'm hoping for a points drop in the next codex, it'd make them much better and we'd see them more. I don't think anyone takes them in squadrons for example... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyderPirate Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 I've only used the Hellhound and Banewolf versions, but I've run into the same problems. They can do a lot of damage to the right units, but they're so squishy that they rarely get to do their thing. A particular weakness that I don't think anyone has mentioned so far is the fact that they're all template weapons and as such can't snap-fire, so a single penetrating hit can render them useless for a turn. So an opponent doesn't actually need to dedicate enough firepower to kill it - one successfull pen. means that they can ignore it for a turn. Aside from what's already been mentioned, they're not too bad to keep in reserve to protect them from a few turns of shooting, only to rush on and burninate/poison anything that's getting too close to your gun line. [On the WAAC/list tailoring thing, it just comes down to your gaming environment. For my group - some fluffy gamers, one WAACer but mostly somewhere between the two - list tailoring of some kind is pretty much expected and is like a little meta-game/arms race. There's not a lot of min/maxing going on though, and most guys have large enough collections to throw in some surprises every game :D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 There's always the full weapon, plus it's Fast - you may not be shooting but you can still scoot around to block or even ram things :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 List tailoring is the norm where I'm at. I'll tell a friend I feel like Air Cavalry, he'll tell me he's cracking out Space Wolves and Santa Grimnar, and we can make sure each of us has a fighting chance. Rather than him bringing an entirely melee army and me just flying round steadily zapping him to bits. I have a soft spot for the Devildog, but it's so unreliable and runs at about 145pts with the Multi-Melta upgrade, 150 if you give it a Dozer Blade. It's a surprisingly hefty amount of points for such a fragile model, but mine's been excellent in the odd game or two, so I play it in hope it redeems itself each game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyderPirate Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Good point, Fish. I always field mine with heavy flamers (for fluff reasons), so I'm not really making the most of the hull weapon. Yeah, the price tag is the real deal-breaker. There's a lot that will do more damage, and be a safer investment in points for that price tag. If they had scout though....the ability to outflank them would be devastating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Outflanking would be very cruel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyderPirate Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 When I first used them I got all excited thinking that Fast allowed them to Outflank, like Scout or Infiltrate. Needless to say I was disappointed when I actually checked the rule. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 There's still a chance to Outflank them if you're rolling IG Warlord traits, especially if you take CREEEEEED! The odds aren't amazing, but it's a possibility. I still think that a Hellhound or two at 1850 or higher is a great fast gap-filler when battling Eldar variants/Tyranids/Orks/Traitor IG. Torrent weapons are devastating in the right scenario and the Hellhound is more durable than many folks are giving it credit for. That said, they are very expensive so screening with cover is important, in addition to having other armored threats about to help soak the opponent's AT weapons; this is NOT a unit for a foot-slogging list! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 I think there's plenty of room for a hellhound in a balanced list. After all, "all-comers" doesn't mean "every unit I have is optimized against every possible opponent," right? The real problem, as has been pointed out, is the points cost, not capability. Why take a hellhound when it's so close in points cost to an eradicator? A nova cannon trumps a torrent heavy flamer, and AV14 trumps the fast USR. I bought my two hellhounds a couple of years ago as a counter to nob bikers, but that was before the nova cannon...today, I'd have to pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pudelhund Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 It would be more fitting if they were all about 20 points less expensive. I can see them be superstars, but the risk, skill, and context in each engagement makes them a lot more of a wildcard than more dependable options for about the same points cost. I am trying to include a Bane Wolf in one of my lists because my meta is all MEQ/TEQ, but otherwise I agree with march10k - I would choose an Eradicator 9/10 times over a Hellhound if I'm just filling a general anti-infantry, anti-cover role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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