[30k] Tactical Support & Heavy Support squads

[infyrana]

...So how do you use yours?...

Do any of you run Tactical Support Squads in your legion army? What sort of weapons do you run, are they effective, do you advocate a Rhino for transport and cover, do you always send them off as a 9-man squad with a buffing HQ choice, or do you find they are tricky as some options sport the 'heavy' rule like Grav and Volkite Calivers?

For those of you who like more marines in your heavy slots or are blessed with DG's 'The Reaping', what do you find works? I know there are lots of Volkite Culverin fans, but what about 5-man Heavy Flamer squads, Las-Cannons or Missile Launchers with flakk etc?

...

I figured it would be good to start a thread for those wanting to use these units, but obviously I have my reasons here below

...I'm finally gluing up my third squad of 20 marines for my Death Guard Troop slot (as Tacticals with bolters), but with The Reaping and Morturg's infiltrate as options, I'm wondering if there are plenty of better choices for these models (ie: give them chem/muni-flamers, plasma, heavy flamers, volkite culverins, even a melta squad etc).

Thanks!

[ROBOcaster]

I love my 10 man Caliver Squad I put a MoS with them and set them on an ADL with an ammo dump and they do some serious work. 20 shots BS5 rerolling 1s, people tend to hate them. I would Like a heavy squad with 40 shots but I have some fierce fighting for those heavy support slots.

[v6v77]

I run 10 man tactical support with the sergant having bolter and augury scanner and the squad having volkite calivers.

 

Brilliant against deep strikers, pod heavy armies ect.

 

Being an alpha legion player u steal the iron havocs which are brilliant with missile launchers. Reducing cover and rerolling pens make them worth their points.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The issue with having a tooled up heavy support squad is that they instantly become scorpius fodder. The caliver support squad is probably a better version simply because its a troop choice, 100 points cheaper and is less threatening. 

 

Iron havocs are amazing with their missiles, but suffer from the same scorpius bait syndrome sadly

[v6v77]

The issue with having a tooled up heavy support squad is that they instantly become scorpius fodder. The caliver support squad is probably a better version simply because its a troop choice, 100 points cheaper and is less threatening.

 

Iron havocs are amazing with their missiles, but suffer from the same scorpius bait syndrome sadly

Luckily i play almost exclusively against 40k armies so have avoided being the target of scorpii. My opponents rage at them tells me enough though.

[infyrana]

Thanks for the input into the thread guys!

 

So Iron Havocs wiith MLs and Volkite Support squads with augury scanners are both worth considering - but suffer from being Scorpius fodder.

 

The competing for heavy slots is a real issue with heavy support squads I know.  If you had slots available just for heavy support squads that didn't take up any of your heavy slots, would you consider taking any then?  (think Death Guard's RoW having them available as troop options)

 

Is there anyone out there who's used Plasma, Flamer or Melta support squads in 30k games?

[SkimaskMohawk]

The death guard row is weird, it's only really useful if you've taken up all your heavy support and want to get even more heavy weapons, something that works well in bigger games, in normal games you can't leverage the non compulsory troops well enough to make up for the punishing disadvantages it gives

[infyrana]

I understand yeah, I guess it's the reason there's not a host of people coming in on this thread and shouting about how awesome three full 'dev' squads are with various heavy weapons etc...

 

So with that in mind ...

 

What about something minimal for added punch or fun - 5-man Heavy Flamer squad with Chem Munitions under the DG RoW ?  Is this just a waste of points, or do you think it could have merit infiltrated or with rhino as a way of harassing troop units?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Infiltrated in a Rhino via morturg would be decent, other wise probably would have a hard time getting anywhere

[infyrana]

That's what I had hoped.. I am sure there are some interesting combinations out there, it's just finding something that people have found actually can work before spending those hard earned funds on units that will never be fielded.

 

Do you feel that there could be other combinations with that thought in mind for infiltrating in a rhino etc?  Thanks for keeping the updates flowing btw :)

[SkimaskMohawk]

The more expensive options work best in an alpha strike way either in pods or infiltrating rhinos (melta better in pods plasma in rhinos). The problem here is that we're taking about alpha strike and deep striking/infiltrating which is raven guard territory.

 

It seems to me that dg players take morturg to get around their rows horrible drawbacks, but I think it would be more effective simply not to take it in the first place. Use caliver squads instead of culverins as you never max out on troops, take rhinos with plasma or heavy flamers with morturg and infiltrate but still be able to run and flat out and deepstrike with your army.

 

Maybe its just my play style, but I find it very hard to imagine a scenario where the row and morturg is better than just morturg.

[infyrana]

Aye, Wolf_Pack is already running up some very interesting options with just Crysos Morturg.  The adding of the RoW just prevents the additional 3 infiltrated units - so yes it's not optimal.  Heavy Flamers with Morturg and no RoW would mean using a heavy slot, so I guess it's normal flamers there.  But you think Morturg's infiltrate option (or RG / AL lists) makes the Plasma / Flamer / Melta squads more viable as inclusions for that alpha strike?

 

I'm guessing for points value, a full 10 man melta squad would still have bad odds taking on a Ceramite Armoured Spartan?  Is there a way to improve those odds?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Raven guard excel with deepstrike alpha strike because of decapitation strike giving optional pods and reroll for deploying first. Full 10 man meltas is a huge investment, I'd do 5 and kill a non armoured ceramite target. I (being a raven guard player) would use dark fire castellax with tank hunters and a praevian for that problem or grav cannons. Melta pods would be for scorpii, Vindicators or even just high value rhinos for other things to be able to target the occupants

[Hesh Kadesh]

The death guard row is weird, it's only really useful if you've taken up all your heavy support and want to get even more heavy weapons, something that works well in bigger games, in normal games you can't leverage the non compulsory troops well enough to make up for the punishing disadvantages it gives

Multiple Deredeos or Vindi Tank destroyers are pretty powerful; their biggest complaint is they are not 1-3. Same with Sicarans and Scorpius but less so IMHO.

 

Having troops which can actually achieve something (especially if you take Morturg for guaranteed relentless and maybe try for another with Mastery 2 Libby) is a dream in this.game, and outside of Calivers, you need pods/rhinos (both with huge downsides) to make other SWS's useful. Relentless HWS with Las or Flakk missiles are scary as.

[SkimaskMohawk]

For sure they're strong, as well as good examples of units that can take up the heavy slots quickly.

My main point is that the points level itself is going to be very restrictive to how you build your list. My area plays at 2000 for a "normal" sized game; a spot list with morturg, delegatus for The Reaping, minimum sized tac sqauds, lvl 2 libby, 2 deredeos and laser vindi is 1240 (1170 if you dont give the deredeos the launcher). You effectively have 750 left to play around with (note that aside from the lvl 2 and ailos launchers theres no upgrades). 10 HWS guys with launchers w/ flakk is 335 , volkites are also 335, las is 435. Lets say you take two 10 man flakk launcher squads, give them scanners and give your characters some armour and melta bombs; your list is now full.

You have 20 bolter guys for backline capping, 20 rocket guys that can handle anything short of a spartan or terminators, 2 deredeos for medium AT and AA and a laser vindi for AT. For that you have an army with all of its power in 4 units (missiles and deredeos), that can take marginal advantage of infiltrate (don't want to get too close to be able to be shot by bolters and lose range advantage) and is slow as . Brutally, unforgivably slow; the best it can move is 6" a turn if you want to fire and the vindi can at most go 12". The worst part is that my favorite example (the one I use every time on this forum it seems), the scorpius, will chew through a rocket squad a turn. That's all the threat and all the reason to take the RoW in the first place.

I completely agree in 3k+ that you get a lot of value out of the HWS as troops, you just give up far too much to take them at 2k

On the whole I wouldn't recommend taking support squads other than calivers as they're such a big threat and will be targeted. Plasma and melta need transports so become over 200 points for a five man squad.

Maybe its just because the most active 30k players in my area sport scorpii and medusas, but I'm just not a fan of 3+ armour save guys that draw attention from the scary templates

[Hesh Kadesh]

Ah, that's a difference in playstyle. I find that a 50-100pt unit tax on most units leads to standard game size equivalent's being around 2.4-2.8k, compared to what normal 40K games are like. I don't like playing 1500pt games, and that 1850 is just a little on the restrictive side, so liked to play 2k 7th edition.

[SkimaskMohawk]

See we play 1500 specifically because it restricts army lists and forces people to make decisions in list building; 2000 is the 30k size of it

[Hesh Kadesh]

Haha, just shows the differentiation in games. I like being able to play with the models I have bought and the same for opponents. Plus, that lack of "restriction" IMHO opens up a new meta. Such as by being able to play with LoW.

[Gorgoff]

We seldom play 30k games bigger than 1500p and it is fun.

I think you guys make the big mistake, that you only think in huge units.

Why buy ten dudes with culverines? Five guy will do the job as well and are much cheaper, way easier to hide or to squeeze in small terrain pieces and since they're sort of cheap leave gaps for other units.

I put them in my Bastion so that artillery is no problem at all. A Bunker for 50 points will do the trick as well.

There I put an ammo dump so that I do not need an Master of the Signal.

I don't like expansive HQ's and seldom have more than a Centurien with a trusty chainsword and Bolt Pistol drinking tea with the HSS in the bastion. That leaves even more points for the cool stuff, and secures my warlord very nicely. Sometimes he shoots stuff with the build in Heavy Bolters side by side with the Culverine Gang.

 

But I think we want to talk about Tactical Support Squads.

When I started with HH I bought and painted a TSS with Plasma Guns. Five guys in a Rhino. That seemed like an awesome unit, but as a matter of fact it is not. They are ok at best. Last time they had the oppertunity to shine against WB.

Drove 6", got out and unloaded 10 shots at his Ghal Vorbak.

What happened?

One lost wound at the Vorbak and three dead Plasma dudes.

I know, I know. That is not the average result, but MY TSS does that all the time. ;)

Now I play them with a Rhino equipped with an Heavy Bolter on the roof. As an Iron Warrior Rhino it fires pinning ammunition, with is kind of nice. Not against Word Bearers, of course, but against allmost all other armies.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Very hard to compare effectiveness of units at that point level; its like playing 40k at 1000 most.

 

As for buildings, they're kind of trash for an important shooting unit. Everything other than the 1 result snap fires the occupants, damages them with s6 or both. This is ignoring that buildings die on a 6 unlike vehicles...

[Fangbanger]

Some interesting stuff here!

 

I myself am just looking at adding some support to my close combat worldies and am leaning towards 10 man plas in rhino and have been thinking of a 10 man calivers with a mos. think this thread has swayed me.

 

I like the thought of culverins and auto canons as heavy squads, but my heavy slots are filled with Spartans and I sure as hell cant afford to loose them!

[Dantay VI]

What about heavy flamer support squads, with prometheum pipes and obstacles?

 

A decent area denial/support squad?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Heavy Flamers aren't as good in 40k because there are few 4+ Targets, so even Ignoring Cover isn't that useful. Scoring and Shred with Death Guard popping out of a Pod is pretty good though, or if The Reaping, triggering Rad Grenades on the overwatch S5 vs T3 is brilliant.

[Dantay VI]

I just thought that with the promethium pipes giving torrent to the flame weapons for extra range it would make them more useful, especially against anything lighter than a marine.

 

Or is it only certain legions which benefit from torrent

[Theredknight]

I use my kakophoni as tactical support calivers, they are my backfield home objective campers and produce a decent amount of firepower when they get the chance.

While the rest of my troops move up and get into the fight, or provide support for those that do