Tartaros vs Cataphractii

[GreyCrow]

So, from what I read of the rules, Cataphractii does seem like a very very good option to take over Tartaros because only the overwatch is lost. Is there any point in taking Tartaros that makes them a hidden gem ?

[Slips]

You can Run, mainly, and if you have any Flamer Based Weapons (remember my Horrendously long post on Terminator Specialisations?) you can still Wall of Flame.

 

Other than that, its mostly a question of: will my Terminators get their 2+ save more often than not? If yes, Tartaros. If not, Cataphractii.

 

It can also come into play if your in Medium-Small maps where non-vehicle based movement is important. Or if you're Deepstriking them.

 

Is +1Invuln and Slow and Purposeful worth Losing Run and Overwatch (and maybe something else I'm forgetting)? 

[Ishagu]

I prefer Cataphractii simply because they are different from 40k Termies...

[GreyCrow]

These are some good points, forgot about the run bit :) Thanks !

 

For "heavy" melee weapons, Cataphractii do seem more interesting, while Tartaros can get some pretty interesting overwatch due to ranged weapons. 

 

I'm considering running a Terminator heavy POTL list with 3 squads of them, so perhaps going for 2 Cataphractii for durability and one Tartaros for mobility and close range firefights could be interesting.

[ThatOneMarshal]

Cataprachtii because they look waaaay better than those ugly tartaros. Rule of cool man. Also that 4++ is better for almost everything besides foot slogging but who foot slogs terminators?

[Kizzdougs]

In the end it really depends on how you plan to use the terminators (transport/footslog/deepstrike/bodyguard etc.). Most of the time Cataphractii seem better from a rules perspective

 

Personally, when I was doing my Terminators I went for what I felt fit my Legion better from and aesthetic/fluff perspective. The Tartaros is a better fit for the Emperor's Children (in my opinion), so that is what I went with.

 

 

Ps. the Tartaros aren't ugly, they just lack detail. If you can be bothered taking the time, Tartaros can look pretty good with some added detail :tu:

[Marshal Loss]

Cataphractii is almost always better. Generally you're always going to have a delivery system for your Terminators, and so run isn't a must-have, and I don't think losing overwatch is a huge deal on them. The 4+ invulnerable save is absolutely huge. 

[Olis]

Cataprachtii Tartaros because they look waaaay better than those ugly tartaros Cataphractii. Rule of cool man.

 

Ftfy. ;)

[ThatOneMarshal]

 

 

Cataprachtii Tartaros because they look waaaay better than those ugly tartaros Cataphractii. Rule of cool man.

Ftfy. ;)

Touché good sir.

[Ishagu]

On a serious note, I would say that Cataphractii are the better option.

 

Neither one can sweeping advance, and I would take an improved invul over the ability to run and fire overwatch.

 

Terminators always need dedicated transport anyways...

[Hesh Kadesh]

Taking Cataphractii requires a further point sink if you want them to be useful earlier than turn 4, unless you can Deep Strike them, and with Spartans (and other lesser transports) being dead meat as a result of the Graviton Spam, you can't guarantee that an Assault CataphractiI squad will do anything once they jump out of the ruined transport into difficult terrain.

 

A tartaros/indomitus squad can still run, and despite the lower save, can still do alright in combat. I'd take them over Catphractii unless I was using a Cataphractii unit to simply sit pretty on a Centre objective And walk them up the field

[v6v77]

Taking Cataphractii requires a further point sink if you want them to be useful earlier than turn 4, unless you can Deep Strike them, and with Spartans (and other lesser transports) being dead meat as a result of the Graviton Spam, you can't guarantee that an Assault CataphractiI squad will do anything once they jump out of the ruined transport into difficult terrain.

 

A tartaros/indomitus squad can still run, and despite the lower save, can still do alright in combat. I'd take them over Catphractii unless I was using a Cataphractii unit to simply sit pretty on a Centre objective And walk them up the field

Or you play Alpha legion and infiltrate 10 lernean/firedrake/redbutcher terminators hidding Alpharius.

 

On a serious note it saves alot of points on transports so in that regard i would go with cataphracti.

[Slips]

 

Taking Cataphractii requires a further point sink if you want them to be useful earlier than turn 4, unless you can Deep Strike them, and with Spartans (and other lesser transports) being dead meat as a result of the Graviton Spam, you can't guarantee that an Assault CataphractiI squad will do anything once they jump out of the ruined transport into difficult terrain.

 

A tartaros/indomitus squad can still run, and despite the lower save, can still do alright in combat. I'd take them over Catphractii unless I was using a Cataphractii unit to simply sit pretty on a Centre objective And walk them up the field

Or you play Alpha legion and infiltrate 10 lernean/firedrake/redbutcher terminators hidding Alpharius.

 

On a serious note it saves alot of points on transports so in that regard i would go with cataphracti.

 

And for those of us who have no Interest in Playing Alpha Legion? What then?

[v6v77]

 

 

 

Taking Cataphractii requires a further point sink if you want them to be useful earlier than turn 4, unless you can Deep Strike them, and with Spartans (and other lesser transports) being dead meat as a result of the Graviton Spam, you can't guarantee that an Assault CataphractiI squad will do anything once they jump out of the ruined transport into difficult terrain.

 

A tartaros/indomitus squad can still run, and despite the lower save, can still do alright in combat. I'd take them over Catphractii unless I was using a Cataphractii unit to simply sit pretty on a Centre objective And walk them up the field

Or you play Alpha legion and infiltrate 10 lernean/firedrake/redbutcher terminators hidding Alpharius.

 

On a serious note it saves alot of points on transports so in that regard i would go with cataphracti.

And for those of us who have no Interest in Playing Alpha Legion? What then?

Characters who allow deep striking or picking warlord traits. Outflank (EC) maybe.

 

After that i am out of ideas i am afraid. My main issue with terminators no matter how they are deployed is they draw too much fire to be survivable. Maybe in a caestus but other than that.

[Ishagu]

 

 

 

 

Taking Cataphractii requires a further point sink if you want them to be useful earlier than turn 4, unless you can Deep Strike them, and with Spartans (and other lesser transports) being dead meat as a result of the Graviton Spam, you can't guarantee that an Assault CataphractiI squad will do anything once they jump out of the ruined transport into difficult terrain.

 

A tartaros/indomitus squad can still run, and despite the lower save, can still do alright in combat. I'd take them over Catphractii unless I was using a Cataphractii unit to simply sit pretty on a Centre objective And walk them up the field

Or you play Alpha legion and infiltrate 10 lernean/firedrake/redbutcher terminators hidding Alpharius.

 

On a serious note it saves alot of points on transports so in that regard i would go with cataphracti.

And for those of us who have no Interest in Playing Alpha Legion? What then?

Characters who allow deep striking or picking warlord traits. Outflank (EC) maybe.

 

After that i am out of ideas i am afraid. My main issue with terminators no matter how they are deployed is they draw too much fire to be survivable. Maybe in a caestus but other than that.

This is why I'm taking only 5 in a Storm Eagle.

They might not see combat till turn 4, but they can mop up late game rather than get shot off the table early on.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

the only time I would take regular terminators over Cataphractii is if I was running them on foot against an army with little to no AP2. If Tartaros still had the old Tartaros Pattern rules, they would be a decent choice.

[v6v77]

the only time I would take regular terminators over Cataphractii is if I was running them on foot against an army with little to no AP2. If Tartaros still had the old Tartaros Pattern rules, they would be a decent choice.

Which rules are those? I imagine they were before my time but you sir have my curiosity.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

 

the only time I would take regular terminators over Cataphractii is if I was running them on foot against an army with little to no AP2. If Tartaros still had the old Tartaros Pattern rules, they would be a decent choice.

Which rules are those? I imagine they were before my time but you sir have my curiosity.

in the old rules Tartaros Terminators could make sweeping advances but you only had a 6+ Invul. It's kind of annoying that FW hasn't fixed that yet.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think he was asking for a source instead, as ever since FW made it it's been identical to indomnitus pattern.

 

Gamewise, thered be very little purpose in having what you described; a command squad with shields is better, as is any artificer armour with a combat shield. Would they ask you to pay the same cost as Cataphracti and indomnitus? I couldn't imagine it. The squad would also necessitate a transport as a 6++ is a joke when walking up the field

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

 

the only time I would take regular terminators over Cataphractii is if I was running them on foot against an army with little to no AP2. If Tartaros still had the old Tartaros Pattern rules, they would be a decent choice.

Which rules are those? I imagine they were before my time but you sir have my curiosity.

in the old rules Tartaros Terminators could make sweeping advances but you only had a 6+ Invul. It's kind of annoying that FW hasn't fixed that yet.

 

What old rules? That was someone wishlisting. I've specifically asked FW if there's any difference between Tartaros Pattern and any other listed except Cataphractii (important, due to the Book 2; Massacre rules listing Phoenix Terminators as having "Tartaros Terminator Armour"; this was notably changed to just "Terminator Armour" in the LAICL), and they returned "no". Admittedly, that was just one of their ape-cretins on work experience answering emails, but it's an answer all the same; and as mentioned, the Red Books have removed the "Tartaros" from their wargear description.

[norngahl]

Actually I remember the same thing. Tartaros came up with the Minotaures. And they had increased movement flexibility due to sweeping, but at the cost of reduced protection. But I can't remember where the rules were in.

[Ishagu]

Actually I remember the same thing. Tartaros came up with the Minotaures. And they had increased movement flexibility due to sweeping, but at the cost of reduced protection. But I can't remember where the rules were in.

I don't think those rules were ever published...

 

I remember when the Tartaros first appeared, I think it was assumed they would be able to sweeping advance but the rules ended up being the same as the standard Terminator suit...

[Sanct]

Tartaros rule questions come up every couple of years.  It was an experiental pdf rule attached to the tartaros page on fw.  I think it was also in an early HH book 1 leak but was removed.

The rules were something like 2+/6++, relentless, can't overwatch but i forget

[Guest Mordray]

bloody hells got this thread mixxed up with another... carry on nothing to see here.

[01RTB01]

Is +1Invuln and Slow and Purposeful worth Losing Run and Overwatch (and maybe something else I'm forgetting)?

Slow and purposeful no more :)

 

I believe I've seen tartaros rules in an imperial armour book but memory fails me where.

 

As for the debate - tartaros for ec, cataphractii for iron warriors. Rule of cool ahoy!