Cult mech as a elite small army?

[78zrider]

After watching miniwar gamings video on the formations one of them brought up an idea of combining the holy req formation with the cohort cybernetica formation to make a small, high toughness group of long range fire power. Do these guys have what it takes to stand up to other army's in this configuration? they said the holy req would have 10 breachers + Dom. The robot formation has all the good relics in it for staying power

 

Edit: best I can see it is 6 robots and 4 data smiths + Dom for 1850 point games

[Frater Cornelius]

You will be criminally short on mobility. A decent drop pod army can just saturate thr board and score early while throwing speed-bumps your way. I am not convinced.

Sounds fun for kill-point games though.

[78zrider]

To me It seems like it's more of a use all the firepower to try and Eliminate the other army and the holy req deep strike is cleanup

[Lucien Eilam]

I'm not sure the Formations are doing you any favours there. You'd start the game with one big target on the board facing potentially an entire army. Robots are good, but I don't think they're quite that good.

 

You can put exactly the same units in a Battle Congregation (minus one Tech-Priest, which buys you a couple more Breachers or a Robot, depending on equipment), have everything shooting from turn one, and split your opponent's fire at least 5 ways from the first turn instead of presenting a single target.

 

It also frees you from the restrictions of the Formation, so you could swap some Breachers out for grav-cannon Destroyers or something, giving you a bit more flexibility.

[Frater Cornelius]

I'm not sure the Formations are doing you any favours there. You'd start the game with one big target on the board facing potentially an entire army. Robots are good, but I don't think they're quite that good.

 

You can put exactly the same units in a Battle Congregation (minus one Tech-Priest, which buys you a couple more Breachers or a Robot, depending on equipment), have everything shooting from turn one, and split your opponent's fire at least 5 ways from the first turn instead of presenting a single target.

 

It also frees you from the restrictions of the Formation, so you could swap some Breachers out for grav-cannon Destroyers or something, giving you a bit more flexibility.

 

This. Robots will die to a solid alpha strike. A few Grav volleys and it is over.

[mmimzie]

Eh the robos are very beefy they could stand a lone well enough. They fasted a turn on thier own against psychic powers, plasma shots, and anti tank shot then coming out the other side with out taking a single wound (after saves and repairs obviously). 

 

That said objective  are just gonna be tough as nails. Depending on how a tourny does mission or how your local games do mission. Some could make you start with ton of objective, but get fewer and fewer as the game goes on. SO loosing turn one does kind of suck.

 

That said the kastelans can indeed hold thier own it's just about if the breachers can claim multiple objectives in time to keep you in the game. As the kastelans will have to be played very agressively and possible spread out to try and claim multiple objectives.

[Lucien Eilam]

A competent opponent unable to put a single wound on a unit of Kastelan Robots with his entire army is a freak occurrence, not the basis for a sound strategy.

 

And for this army to work running with the Formations, you have to account for the possibility of taking up to 4 turns of fire before they get any support.

 

You're massively overestimating how tough they are.

[DeStinyFiSh]

A competent opponent unable to put a single wound on a unit of Kastelan Robots with his entire army is a freak occurrence, not the basis for a sound strategy.

 

And for this army to work running with the Formations, you have to account for the possibility of taking up to 4 turns of fire before they get any support.

 

You're massively overestimating how tough they are.

 

I agree with you, don't think the bots will make it.

 

However, reroll reserve for the holy requisition makes it very unlikely to have to wait that long.

[MithrilForge]

This sounds like an army for Friends/local wargames meet up,not for taking to the Tourney scene, you would have to be playing the very bottom tier players(frankly,where most of the nice guys actually are found )to get anywhere,against a cheddar cheese beardy player...forget it and i don't think it has the flexibilty to adapt to tourney objectives and scenarios that change each game,use this formation idea for fun with friends.

Mithril

[Scurvydog]

Another option is to just ally a bot cohort with an imperial knight. Like playing a big grumpy man who just joined a gang of angry and slightly confused midgets. You might or might not loose the objective game with it, everything got plenty of range and firepower to blow most objective grabbers to the moon though.

 

Everyone in my local meta is on a huge whine rampage over the bots anyway, after my cohort of 4 bots with all phosphor, 2 smiths and 1 dom wrecked 3 units of 5 mega armored nobz and a warboss who charged me. Was lucky though to get the 6th warlord trait for max canticles, so each of the 3 units started taking 21 str 4 hits. 

 

I can see how the cohort will just bend over to setups like grey knights jumping in with dreadknights using force, 3+ -> 2+ -> dead bot. 

 

I can't figure out breachers and destroyers though, I like them in a way, but at the same time they sort of seem like sitting ducks, just begging for something more nasty and tricky to flank them, deep strike murder them or whatever, few competetive lists gives you much chance to bring the weapons to bear, either using cover, psychic tricks, deep strike, transports or whatever. The cult line is easily broken and rendered useless, with even breachers with just 1 attack. At least the bots have some useful melee and shooting with nearly any setup.

[Lucien Eilam]

However, reroll reserve for the holy requisition makes it very unlikely to have to wait that long.

 

Absolutely. But, however unlikely, it is a possibility. And that's the worst case. If you're going second, failing it even once would probably mean the game was over before your Breachers even arrive.

 

When the army fits just fine into a Detachment and the Formation bonuses aren't really all that great, there's no point risking not even getting to play with it.

[mmimzie]

 

However, reroll reserve for the holy requisition makes it very unlikely to have to wait that long.

 

Absolutely. But, however unlikely, it is a possibility. And that's the worst case. If you're going second, failing it even once would probably mean the game was over before your Breachers even arrive.

 

When the army fits just fine into a Detachment and the Formation bonuses aren't really all that great, there's no point risking not even getting to play with it.

 

I do agree jsut deploying them might be better. Even then you'd be really slow getting out on the field.

 

I'd say either scrap cohort, and take a detachment. 1 maniple and some destroyers along wiht the tech priest. Then take holy requsition to give you something forward if your dead set on mono cult. 

[Frater Cornelius]

One Centurion volley with re-rolls to hit will net 6 unsaved wounds on a FnP Kastellan unit, if it is forced to take invulnerable saves. Provided the Dominus tanks, it would mean one dead bot and a few more wounds in the unit. A 3 pods alpha strike plus some fire support will see at least another bot dead.

The bots will take some heavy abuse and while they will not die in one shooting phase, they will unlikely be able to contest board control at that point. Breachers will not be a massive help because they can not kill infantry reliably enough.

[Vel'Cona]

I really feel that the last three major Imperial forces codices (Skitarii, IK, and Cult Mech) are specifically designed as "ally" forces.  While they are each capable of being run as a solo codex, I don't think that any of these books are 100% competent in this task.  Skitarii bring numbers and ranged anti-armor (Vanguard, Dunecrawlers), IK bring the well-rounded heavy hitters (Paladin, Warden), and CultMech has durable units with excellent anti-MEQ firepower (Destroyers, Robots).  Depending on what you expect to face, you can bring a mix of any of these elements and sculpt your force accordingly.  Alternatively, you can expand into the new C:SM or other MEQ codices (SW, BA, GK, upcoming DA) to get access to mobility, durable ObjSec, psykers and tougher CC units (Drop Pods, Tacticals, Grey Knights, Death Company, etc.).

 

This isn't to say that you are UNABLE to play the AdMech codices pure; but if you want to be able to handle a breadth of opposition (especially Tau and Eldar), you're going to need to derive your force from more than a single source.

[mmimzie]

I really feel that the last three major Imperial forces codices (Skitarii, IK, and Cult Mech) are specifically designed as "ally" forces.  While they are each capable of being run as a solo codex, I don't think that any of these books are 100% competent in this task.  Skitarii bring numbers and ranged anti-armor (Vanguard, Dunecrawlers), IK bring the well-rounded heavy hitters (Paladin, Warden), and CultMech has durable units with excellent anti-MEQ firepower (Destroyers, Robots).  Depending on what you expect to face, you can bring a mix of any of these elements and sculpt your force accordingly.  Alternatively, you can expand into the new C:SM or other MEQ codices (SW, BA, GK, upcoming DA) to get access to mobility, durable ObjSec, psykers and tougher CC units (Drop Pods, Tacticals, Grey Knights, Death Company, etc.).

 

This isn't to say that you are UNABLE to play the AdMech codices pure; but if you want to be able to handle a breadth of opposition (especially Tau and Eldar), you're going to need to derive your force from more than a single source.

I definitly think 40k really heavily favors allying with other codexs even more so for the imperium. If your going mono it's just so much harder. Cult does ahve alot of mono flavor in thier canticles, but its so easy to ally a handful of skits or a knight to fill graps.

 

Bring skit is as easy as bring 2 troops choices of which arguably among the best troops out there point wise. Knight you need only bring a single knight. Even cult gives you soooo many options to ally it in with cohort cybernetica if you just want sturdy heavy hitters. elimination maniple (not for bonuses) if you want a handful of destroyers and kastelans, but want to save  105 on taking a domi. Even holy requsition bring alittle something as an easy unit to hold back field objectives.

 

It's just way too easy not to mix and match between 2 or 3 of your favorites, and admech synergizes really well. Right now i'm running cohort+skit detachment the cost per body for the skitarii is great. It means i can get 30 troops and 4 walkers for a bargin and let them run along side my expensive cohort.

[Scurvydog]

I also feel skit+cult and maybe a knight is a great way to go. If they had just released 1 book with maybe priests as troops as well and the servitors as elites and a knight princeps LoW choice with admech rules, it would all make a lot of sense.

 

But GW wants to sell mere minis so making more books and making them easier allies, will sell more boxes to all imperium players. Still unsure if this hurts or benefits the hobby...

 

In smaller games cult alone can work, having the dominus in the standard detachment is a good all comers approach to get at least the tier 2 canticles, which will really increase the output. Do not underestimate how powerful they can be, the alpha strike of breachers and destroyers and maybe bots is much more potent when rerolling 1s and 2s to hit with their bs3. Or gaining shroud and you can use what you need the most in your matchup twice.

[78zrider]

Well atm my mono cult army is 2 elimination maniples and 2 units of 4 breachers with arc rifles and my Dom. Honestly my plan is to hopefully kill as much as possible first two turns with reroll canticles. Cult mech just seems like a firing squad to me. Line them up and let the enemy come to me while I unload everything I have

[Scurvydog]

I just feel a pure servitor gunline is a surefire way to loose to assault armies. Once you play an ork mega armor nob list with khorne allies you know what I mean, such an army stands 1 inch from your army turn 1, if you don't start you will have 1 round of shooting.

 

Only managed to beat that once due to a cohort formation and quite a bit of luck. I don't think I will run cult without either a fair amount of bots or what a knight ally, something needs to stand between the most nasty advancing stabby units and gun servitors from my personal experience at least. Maybe, just maybe, I will try priests at some point, a zealot unit as a speedbump for the highest assault threats, they might even get lucky and instant kill something important :p

[Lucien Eilam]

Well, of course that's what it seems like. You've built an army of barely mobile models with big guns.

 

The problem is that a pure gunline will struggle to compete in many 40k missions, and pure Cult is a long way from being even the top tier of gunline armies. You're really slow, lack range, and will struggle with hordes.

 

If you want a strong, balanced army, you really need to diversify, either with Skitarii or other allies.

[mmimzie]

Well, of course that's what it seems like. You've built an army of barely mobile models with big guns.

 

The problem is that a pure gunline will struggle to compete in many 40k missions, and pure Cult is a long way from being even the top tier of gunline armies. You're really slow, lack range, and will struggle with hordes.

 

If you want a strong, balanced army, you really need to diversify, either with Skitarii or other allies.

Cult definitely does not lack range destroyers have 24-30 inch range and last have 36. Sure you won't be shooting across one corner to the furthest corner but still you got the range

 

Problem is it's slow and can't deal with hordes and that's a tough issue to fix. I guess gauoet priest would work well against green tide and khorne. As they'll move up enough to give the priest a nice shot and wall possible attacks. Priest shooting does suck. It's just way too shoot range to be effective.

[78zrider]

I mean can't you just equip bots and destroyers with Flamers and not care ? The destroyers cognis Flamer seems amazing vs horde. But again I'm newish still in process of building my army

 

To me it seems like GW made an attempt to make it ok standalone. Priest are for objectives, bots/destroyers for horde, breachers for anything with hp. Holy req is your only real mobility tho which sucks. just seems kinda hard to balance it out

 

everytime I try to make it look balanced it makes it look weaker to me

[mmimzie]

Well i'd say its best you play it or proxy things. See how the games go.

[Scurvydog]

Cognis flamers does not seem worth it really, but will have to test it. A destroyer unit is dead, flamers or no flamers if charged by say a unit of bikers or berserkers or such, anything MEQ and you might kill 1-2 on an overwatch with 3 destroyers and then you sacrificed the phosphor to add to your ranged firepower for that.

 

How often will the destroyers get to flame any competent assault unit? Unless the enemy gets parked nicely right in front of them? I will be looking for battle reports and more hard data with interest ;)

[Lucien Eilam]

24 inches can only be considered good range on a mobile platform.

 

Shooting corner to corner is something you absolutely need to be able to do when your army moves like a fat man with his shoelaces tied together. 20 man blobs with ObjSec break cover to sit on objectives turn 5. What are you going to do? Besides lose.

 

My whole group's gone Mechanicum crazy at the moment, but nobody's come close to making pure Cult work yet.

 

Kataphrons, even Breachers really, are glass cannons. Destroyers that drive out of cover might as well carry straight on into the casualty tray for all the good T5/4+ will do them.

 

Yes, you can take a lot of flamers, but they don't help if your opponent has no interest in getting close to you.

[DeStinyFiSh]

Kataphrons, even Breachers really, are glass cannons...

 

Why the Breachers ? Is it just the lack of wounds because of the small unit size ?

They look realy tough on paper I thought...