Questions about the Grey Knight Elite choices

[SunsetNemesis]

Hello B&C, fellow Grey Knight posting for the first time.

 

Over the past few weeks, I've been planning an army to fill out the Nemesis Strike Force detachment (especially because of the plastic Terminator Librarian having rekindled my interest in my GK).  I already have most of the slots accounted for, except Elites.  I had my eyes set on 4 Dreadnoughts with LC/ ML loadouts in order to improve my long-range capabilities.  However, upon asking at my local GW, fellow Grey Knight players are saying Purifiers are the superior choice.

 

So I've got to ask, why Purifiers over Dreadnoughts? 

[Everon]

For 125 points you get a 5 man fearless wc2 unit that runs with antihorde cleansing flame power and causes soul blaze on all their melee or a wc1 dreadnought for the exact same price. Noughts I like but their real easy to get melta popped or enemy focuses all their anti armor on that. Purifiers are always underrated by our enemy as just regular pA troops

[SunsetNemesis]

For 125 points you get a 5 man fearless wc2 unit that runs with antihorde cleansing flame power and causes soul blaze on all their melee or a wc1 dreadnought for the exact same price. Noughts I like but their real easy to get melta popped or enemy focuses all their anti armor on that. Purifiers are always underrated by our enemy as just regular pA troops

 

Ah ok, so Purifiers offer more utility and can put more "wounds" on the table than Dreadnoughts for roughly the same cost?  That makes sense.

 

Also, if you don't mind me asking, what would be the best way to equip purifier squads?

[Everon]

Depends on what you're facing. I usually leave mine with swords since most times I need them, swords are good enough. Sometimes I take 10 and put 4 pyscannons in a combat squad for a dakka squad with the other 5 nearby to counter melee. Falchions work nice too if they live long enough as their termies in pa

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Purifiers are fine with no upgrades. If you really want to, you can take a hammer per 5, just so they can kill tanks and MC's without issue. 

[Captain Coolpants]

In a competitive environment, take neither. Our dreadnoughts are the same price as better venerable vanilla marine ones. And purifiers are just really expensive power armour guys that still need a way to get into combat.

 

 

But for fun games, take both?

 

Instead of talking 4 noughts, take 2 and a big squad of purifiers?

[Rurik the blessed]

I'm wondering... why GW gives us 4 elite slots, if the only choice are "rare" units (fluff)... i mean... purifiers and paladins are extremely rare and few numbered, same with dreadnought...

[jeffersonian000]

I'm wondering... why GW gives us 4 elite slots, if the only choice are "rare" units (fluff)... i mean... purifiers and paladins are extremely rare and few numbered, same with dreadnought...

It's so we can do Pally or Purifier spam, like some people did in 5th. While everyone seemed to complaint that the new codex required players to use three books to field their old armies, the truth is almost no one took Assassins and Inquisition with their Draigowings or Counting Crowe lists. GW gave the GK players a detachment that let them still play their favorite builds without FoC shenanigans, while also forcing people to build outside of the box by requiring multiple detachments to run power builds like NDK spam.

 

As in, it was a deliberate choice.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

What's extra stupid is that despite giving us 4x Elite choices in NSF, we'll never use them all. For the simple reason that Paladins are overpriced garbage, and Purifiers can't be taken in huge numbers because they have zero synergy with 'Rites'. Also, both are expensive and you can't take many at any point level anyway (not more than 3, which is what CAD offers anyway). 

 

The Elite slots are pretty much dead in NSF. NSF is mainly for delivering 20-30 Terminators into the enemy's face Turn 1. So really, it's more about the Troops than anything else. 

[Afc24]

That's what I do. Have 30 termies in the NSF in the face of enemy with 2 dread Knights also. Cause havoc. However I have never used purifiers so I can't really comment on the elite side of the GK

[jeffersonian000]

2 Librarians, 2 units of Purifiers, 2 Dreadnoughts, 2 Stormravens, 2 DreadKnights, 1 unit of GKT = GW's vision of what's in an NSF.

 

SJ

[Aethernitas]

If you really want to field Dreads I would combine it with a MSU Rhino army. In the current meta not many non-tournament lists can deal with potentially 6 Rhinos with Strikes and 3 dreads charging their lines. The times where everyone and their mother loaded up on autocannons lies in the past and 11+ vehicles with armour is hard to deal with. Numbers obviously vary on how you equip them. THis is only a raw draft and there a lot of room for improvements.

 

Your Rhino-wall makes your dreads quite resilient while still advancing fast. This obviously lends to the "move rhino to get LoS, fire, flat out the Rhino back to block LoS" shenanigans. I would recommend to equip the dreads with heavy anti-tank weaponry to hopefully kill their heavy weapons before they break open too many Rhinos. The Idea is to conquer the midfield and the use your wagon fort made of Rhinos to block LoS and provide cover while you decimate your enemy with your midrange shooting. The strategy is very fiddly and I haven't tried it myself but I think it's worth a try.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

2 Librarians, 2 units of Purifiers, 2 Dreadnoughts, 2 Stormravens, 2 DreadKnights, 1 unit of GKT = GW's vision of what's in an NSF.

 

Kek. To be fair, that's not too far off what we normally take. Cut the Dreads, use their points to get more Terminators (probably drop a Librarian as well, you only need one), thats not too bad. Point is though, still not using those 4 Elite slots very well. Also, that's like a 2k list. 

If you really want to field Dreads I would combine it with a MSU Rhino army. In the current meta not many non-tournament lists can deal with potentially 6 Rhinos with Strikes and 3 dreads charging their lines. The times where everyone and their mother loaded up on autocannons lies in the past and 11+ vehicles with armour is hard to deal with. Numbers obviously vary on how you equip them. THis is only a raw draft and there a lot of room for improvements.

 

You don't want Dreads, because they're overpriced and do nothing for us we want. Likewise, Rhino lists aren't difficult to deal with. It's not in the past, massed S7 is still a very good option against all kinds of lists. It's still the best way to mow down infantry, MC's, light/medium vehicles etc. I haven't seen it drop off anywhere. 

Your Rhino-wall makes your dreads quite resilient while still advancing fast. This obviously lends to the "move rhino to get LoS, fire, flat out the Rhino back to block LoS" shenanigans. I would recommend to equip the dreads with heavy anti-tank weaponry to hopefully kill their heavy weapons before they break open too many Rhinos. The Idea is to conquer the midfield and the use your wagon fort made of Rhinos to block LoS and provide cover while you decimate your enemy with your midrange shooting. The strategy is very fiddly and I haven't tried it myself but I think it's worth a try.

 

It's pure jank and no one else has made it work in recent times. We're the worst army to try that, because none of our special abilities or rules assist with it, and our infantry are all pricey and many of them don't want Rhinos, they want to Deepstrike or be in an Assault transport (like a Raven). MSU mech might make a comeback for other Marines or maybe IG, but we're not suited to it at all. 

 

Dreads have pathetic firepower compared to similar fire support units in other armies. They're routinely outgunned and outmatched in shootouts. We'll see if GW made vanilla Marines different, apparently they're giving Dreads a melee focus (4A base). The reason the PsyDread worked was it spat out 4x S8 AP4 shots at 48" very consistently, and it was arguably undercosted for its time. It also lived in the age of mech dominance, whereas now things are quite different. We need Skyfire and probably Interceptor too. Allies offer those things, but we simply don't have it outside of Ravens. Paying 130pts or more for mediocre firepower doesn't cut it in todays world, even in casual games. 

[Aethernitas]

Jeez, RD forgive me trying to cater to OP's question and at least trying to somehow make his 4 dreadnoughts work instead of telling him to convert those into NDKs :P

 

I really don't need someone to point out how lackluster dreads are but not everyone coming here for advice is playing with the same mindset and their local gaming group could be - and probably is from what I read into it -  a total different beast than yours or mine.

[Everon]

Well with the sm ally Dex, purifiers just got the reliable deep strike they needed for cheap and if the emperor loves us enough Gw may errata /FAQ our dreads to be similar to the updated ones. 4 attacks base and squads? I'd take 3 dreads with las / autos at that point. Don't have to worry bout easy first blood when they have to kill 3 of em

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Jeez, RD forgive me trying to cater to OP's question and at least trying to somehow make his 4 dreadnoughts work instead of telling him to convert those into NDKs

He should sell them to Marine players. Ours aren't worth including in a list. I prefer to be up front about our limitations. Or if you really want to, Ally Dreads from the new Marine book.

really don't need someone to point out how lackluster dreads are but not everyone coming here for advice is playing with the same mindset and their local gaming group could be - and probably is from what I read into it - a total different beast than yours or mine.

Apparently you do, because you were recommending them. Which is fine, we rarely agree about anything. But I'm entitled to express my opinion, same way you are.

Well with the sm ally Dex, purifiers just got the reliable deep strike they needed for cheap and if the emperor loves us enough Gw may errata /FAQ our dreads to be similar to the updated ones. 4 attacks base and squads? I'd take 3 dreads with las / autos at that point. Don't have to worry bout easy first blood when they have to kill 3 of em

I doubt we're getting an FAQ. That would mean GW actually pays attention to the vast gulf between new Marines and the variant ones. I expect we'll have our Dreads brought into line when we get updated with a new codex. It is pretty amusing that Contemptors are also left out in the cold by this change. Forge World is probably going to FAQ their IA books to compensate.

[Aethernitas]

Apparently you do, because you were recommending them. Which is fine, we rarely agree about anything. But I'm entitled to express my opinion, same way you are.

 

Despite of always quoting the living **** out of posts I feel like you don't really read them. Either that or we have very different interpretations of what a recommondation is :D

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 If you really want to field Dreads I would combine it with a MSU Rhino army. In the current meta not many non-tournament lists can deal with potentially 6 Rhinos with Strikes and 3 dreads charging their lines. The times where everyone and their mother loaded up on autocannons lies in the past and 11+ vehicles with armour is hard to deal with. Numbers obviously vary on how you equip them. THis is only a raw draft and there a lot of room for improvements.

 

Your Rhino-wall makes your dreads quite resilient while still advancing fast. This obviously lends to the "move rhino to get LoS, fire, flat out the Rhino back to block LoS" shenanigans. I would recommend to equip the dreads with heavy anti-tank weaponry to hopefully kill their heavy weapons before they break open too many Rhinos. The Idea is to conquer the midfield and the use your wagon fort made of Rhinos to block LoS and provide cover while you decimate your enemy with your midrange shooting. The strategy is very fiddly and I haven't tried it myself but I think it's worth a try.

 

So that's not your post? Kk

 

Anyway, regarding Elites, I suppose you could use them up by taking Allied Marines for empty FA drop pods to stuff the Purifiers into. 4-8x 'Cleansing Flame' Turn 1 would be pretty amusing (you'd need 3 more drop pod units though...probably Tacs for Troops).