dealing with the devil

[Butcher Braxton]

Dear people of the bolter and chainsword.

Next Friday i'm playing against a buddy who owns chaos.. a lot of chaos. demons, marines, the lot.

I've never played against chaos / him before so...
The question is basically; does anyone have some good advice on dealing with this with the guard?

(like, "stay as far away from his units as possible")

I usually just run a lot of tanks and laugh but i don't know if that would be a good idea for this situation :P

 

[Teetengee]

Dealing with chaos is much like dealing with loyalist marines. Just be warned that chaos tends to be more aggressive and more close combat oriented.
A conscript tarpit (made fearless via priests) might be useful.

Also, battle cannons are probably not a bad choice.

 

Cultists are basically more choppy less armoured guardsmen, so I imagine you can deal with them with little trouble.

Dealing with daemons is a little different, but just kill them with weight of fire, as ap values are wasted since the daemons almost all only have invulnerable saves.

 

 

The main issue is that depending on what he is bringing you may be up for some very different fights.
Nurgle will be hardy and tough to kill, but slower than other armies usually.

Khorne will rush you and try to kill you in cc.

Tzeentch will dominate the psychic phase and summon more pink horrors and then whatever else he needs, it is more likely to be an issue and you will want to clear the batteries (the pink horror units) first.

 

Slaanesh daemons are very fast and will close extremely quickly to cc.

Slaanesh marines tend to be more shooty, and have sufficient ignores cover to wreck some battle plans.

 

General advice is this, don't let your opponent dictate the terms of battle. Keep him from getting off the assaults he wants, feed him some sacrificial units.

As for lots of tanks and laughing, that will be good against some armies, but others (monstrous creature flying circus, shooting oriented slaanesh, obliterator swarms, or msu plague marines) you might be in for some trouble.

Without knowing more about his army, I would suggest a force that is combined arms and lots of units (unless you are playing for kill points, in which case you should mob up).


The most dangerous units he has are
bikers

spawn

cavalry/biker lords
maulerfiends (if in pairs)

msu plague marines (double special weapons in a five man squad, chosen and havocs can be similarly dangerous)
pink horrors

[WarriorFish]

Tee is right, your plan shouldn't be too much different from any other Marine codex. Stay back, shoot to win and keep your firing angles - the rest is SOP :) Good luck!

[Butcher Braxton]

Oh dear, that is some great advice indeed!

keeping the tanks low cost, use a lot of unit spam (not only tanks ;) ), and try to tarpit if possible.

I'll see what i can build up list wise, this was indeed the information i missed :)

thanks a lot!

ps. also thank you for the individual demon info, keepi'n it sun tzu: "if you know your enemy etc."

[Teetengee]

Glad to help.

[CyderPirate]

Make sure you pack plenty of AA. Whether he takes demons, traitor marines or a mixture, you're pretty likely to see something nasty that flies. Either a demon seagull/Hellturkey (or three), a flying greater demon, or some demon princes with wings.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I have to hit the point about Close combat again, shoot everything in his army, don't let him close to CC. Granted guardsmen can do a lot of damage with greater numbers, but still it would be better if you didn't have to get there. 

[Vel'Cona]

You'd be surprised, but armored units are a fine choice for dealing with CSM since they can generally stay mobile while plugging away.  A hot pick are Wyverns, as they can do insane damage (especially in multiples) by pure dint of throwing out large numbers of blast markers/wounds.  In many cases, CSM will have to close in to threaten your LRs and to a lesser extent Chimera-chassis vehicles, so denying them zones to DS and setting up firing lanes will be very important.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Braxton, I'm sure you'll come up with something, just be careful not to play his game, and don't rush in. 

[Butcher Braxton]

Thank you all for the good advice, i will keep you posted about how it goes tomorrow

EDIT: flightcase is packed with;

vendetta,

valkery,

punisher x2

executioner x2 (i have no basic battlecanons, yeah, laugh ),

about 60 guardsmen (incl conscripts and priest, thanx teet),

chimera x2

wyvern,

aegis with quad

some other stuff.

1850 exactly.

[Butcher Braxton]

i lost with 4-14, purge the alien.
he parked everything in the back (bunsh of oblitirators i think), so that was a nogo for almost everything :P

spawns ran up on the not-tank heavy side of the board and ate the wyvern and command squad.

lol
 

[Vel'Cona]

That's too bad, hopefully you learned something though! Remember, there's always more reinforcements.

[Teetengee]

Yeah, purge the alien will be a tough fight for guard, so many units to kill.

[Butcher Braxton]

true, true, purge the alien is indeed a hard fight for guard.
I yust need to go back to the drawing board (again :P).

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

how did you squadron the tanks? I would have done the 2 each with a punisher and executioner, and deployed them on either flank, with the wyvern dead center at the back, conscripts bubblewrapping the whole thing behind the aegis line. Also knowing it was purge the alien, I'd have turtled up in a corner and knowing it was chaos, I'd have let his close ranged stuff come to me, and then hammered his back line with the wyvern. as soon as his CC stuff got in range of either flank I'd have cut loose and hammered it. As soon as his CC stuff was dealt with, I'd break out and push to his back line, all while hammering it with the wyvern. Camo netting on the vehicles would have been a must as 3+ cover on vehicles behind the aegis line is great. 

 

/edit/

 

That would have been my strategy, obviously you adjust tactics on the fly, so if he didn't want to come to me I'd have switched tactics and gone on the offensive. Turtling up will usually draw your opponent in, as it's a defensive tactic, making them think that you lack aggression, but it also consolidates your firepower and if you angle your tanks so they hit front armor it makes it hard to break through that wall of tank. 

[WarriorFish]

Every loss is just a stepping stone to victory! Sounds like it wasn't a great game but they happen, what were the key learning points you took away from it?

[Butcher Braxton]

well, warriorfish, pretty much everything ulrik says XD

I've talked the game over with the wife (who does not play) and the same thing come's up over and over again;
I seriously lack strategic insight in every game i play, if i would have gone with what ulrik says i could have a chance.
instead the following happened:

1. I deployed first and my deployment was sloppy. (tanks spread on one flank, aegis with quad, wyvern, ccm and autocanons in the other and conscripts w priest in front of pask. flyers in reserve)
2. obliterators with psychers in the centre with aegis made me scared and i did not want to advance on a big chance of my tanks being blown up before they could do anything, this resulted in them.. surprise surprise, not doing anything.
3. besides point 2 there was a knight (the melta type, beautiful nurgel conversion) on the far flank of the board opposite of my tanks, that also made me not want to go forward. the problem was that my main gunner (paskisher) is 24" so it basically did nothing.
4. i thought i could take care of the spawns on the far other flank (4 of them) with my autocannons and the wyvern (the wyvern was pretty useless vs the armour 2+ obliterators, so they were the only real target left.)... i guessed wrong :P
5. valkery (with rocket pods) came on the board and killed nothing due to high armour targets (happens).
6. vendetta took some HP off the knight and also did some damage to his turkey (he lucky roll re-genned his hp)
 

and yes i did adjust my strategy on the fly. (bad me)

so, lessons:
- reset my brain, i'm a little depressed from my 10-game-in-a-row losing spree... and i need to clear this mental blockade.
- read in to decent strategy's and stick to them (i keep thinking i'm playing with the wrong army or have the wrong units etc.)
- if necessary. grow a pair and charge if you have to, don't let 7-800 points of tanks cower in the back doing nothing.
- ask for help from experienced players (looks around).

basic conclusion:
- i don't per default have bad units or a bad army, i just have no clue on now to use it.

ps.
thank you all for helping me with this, i really enjoy playing and i really appreciate the help and advice.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

A bit of basic warfare 101, we'll build from the bottom up. Here we go:

 

Tactics is the basic level, setting up ambushes, flanking, and overwatch are tactics. The tactical level is fluid, rarely do you ever really complete a tactical maneuver (some can be by design, such as the react to contact drill, which combines establishing a base of fire and flanking with a second element before assaulting through), but you adjust tactics on a reactive basis, to stay ahead of him, and make him fight on your terms. In game terms this is what each individual unit is doing, like going to ground, or moving into cover, or choosing not to move to fire a heavy weapon.

 

Operations is the next level up, this is just as fluid, as you want to keep as much control over  what's going on as possible, but the scope is larger. Think of the operational level as controlling the Force Org Slots of your army. I advance troops here, position heavy support there, and flank with my fast attack. It's controlling in an active manner how each component is working together. 

 

Strategic is the top level. This should be relatively simple, straightforward, and achievable. Don't be too simplistic, have a plan. Strategy really comes into play in list building and deployment. Once the game starts your strategy should be fixed, don't deviate (if you can help it). This is the key to an all comers list, is having one list that can adapt to a variety of strategies. 

 

Another key is looking at how the board is set up, is it terrain sparse, or heavy? Are you in a city, or a town? Do you have long avenues of fire to take advantage of your range? Or are you trying to knife fight in a phone booth? Are you using destructible terrain rules?

 

All of these are considerations. If he parked his tank inside a destructible building, drop it on him.

 

The environment is as much a part of your army as your units. Use it! Mech Guard is a very versatile list, you can use a tank as a tank, or as a gun emplacement, a chimera can become a bunker.

 

There are simply going to be times when your game simply becomes the Charge of the Light Brigade, and that's ok, because they a most excellent and inspiring poem written about them (I'm a big fan of Kipling and Tennyson). As for reading, well I have a list.

 

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings

On War, Carl Von Clausewitz

The Command of the Air, Guilio Douhet

 

Reading up on Patton and Rommel wouldn't hurt, as well as studying some of the great tank battle of history. 

 

I'm aggressive, and having worked with the 101st Airborne I was immersed in the Air Assault mission, so I have an affinity for it, and I use those tactics. The vehicles in my army are all AV12 and less, and so I need to move them up to get them into place to get things done. My weapons are all short ranged, but low AP, so I need to get them in place to do maximum damage. 

 

I get my fair share of wins, but I'm not unbeatable. I hope some of this helps.

[WarriorFish]

40k, much like real life, favours the bold. How many generals in history threw away victory by not seizing the initiative? It is the most crucial part of victory - take the initiative, hold it, and make your opponent react to you. If you're dictating the battlefield it becomes easier to win. This is easier to do with a more mobile army true, but mobility can be countered by efficient tactics ;)

 

If you're on a losing streak then this is the best time to completely shake things up. What have you got to lose? Try something different, experiment with things :) Unfortunately we can't be there to guide you as you play, but victory always comes down to you in the end anyway. Perhaps you would benefit from reading the Tactica Generalis? I suggest you give it a good read and muse on your recent games a bit, then return to us with some specific questions that you would like answered :)

 

Remember that 40k is a game, where the rules are absolute (mostly?) and knowable. That's a huge advantage to have (or not) so when in doubt read a codex or the rulebook :tu:

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I have found that playing 40k and Airsoft, as well as my training, there are 3 things you need to seize the initiative (not talking about the dice roll); Speed, Surprise, and Violence of Action.

In many cases the Speed with which your army hits will cause them to be surprised, and when you strike, do so fast, and maximize the killyness.

One of the Airsoft fields I used to play at had a kickable door. every time we needed to clear that building, I'd kick in the door, scare the crap out of everyone, and I'd rush it, shooting anyone that crossed my sights. People would just outright surrender when I did that, I was fast and precise, and aggressive. The armies I play in 40k don't look threatening on the table, but then my Valkyrie comes in first turn (Elysians), and drops out a heavy bolter vet squad to cap an objective and lay down fire, and they run into cover, then becoming hard to dislodge. My Taurox primes move up fast into cover, and then I start dropping ordnance on him, from my MoO, and my Knight. The opponent sees an infantry heavy army and assumes he can just wipe it out, and then I hit him hard and fast.

Another tactical thing, when in doubt remember US Army Ranger standing order 19; Let the Enemy get close, close enough to touch, then jump out and let him have it with your hatchet!

As soon as you can start hitting him, do it, and with the biggest guns you have. Then keep hitting him until he's in range of your next line of guns, and then repeat. Hammer those CC units until they break. as soon as they do, break out and push to his rear area, hammering it with your long ranged stuff all the while.

As much as I like Patton, "Always take the offensive, never dig in" isn't always the best thing to do. It actually helps to do a battrep, or an after action with your opponent, just to see where you could have done things differently or maybe better. That way it lets you in your opponent's head, so you can adjust. Hopefully your opponent isn't a .

If your opponent shuts you down, and says no, it's for a couple of reasons:

1) He doesn't want you to improve because he actually wins against you, in which case he's a

2) He doesn't know how he did it, and doesn't care because he won, in which case he's a

3) He didn't build the list, Doesn't know why it works, and won on it's strength, not his, in which case he's a

If you get one of those above, pull out the old metal dread and old sock, and commence to please the blood god. My experience has been generally good, I've only encountered one powergamer , I've never played him, and If I did, it would be just to troll him (He likes to rush people, but he takes his time; He only plays tourney point level games, because he can't build a list, and he only plays the cheesiest lists he can find).

[SW1]

If you get one of those above, pull out the old metal dread and old sock, and commence to please the blood god. My experience has been generally good ...

 

Lol ... I find old socks risk the dread becoming airborne.

[Butcher Braxton]

Thank you for the advice, i will take a look at the books you recommended.

 

Before i further reply i must say that the friends i usually play are seriously competitive players and they don't settle for anything but parmazan cheeze.
They do give me good advice and pointers, but it seems like i shut down once the first turn is going (probably shock and awe about how my plan does not work, this is also the point where i change strategy during the game). my point is, there good players who think of and write there own stuff and know how to use it.

tactics, operations, strategy is indeed a good way to go, its definitely worth taking a good solid look at.
i'll copy paste your notes in a word file for future reference ulrik.

I't seems taking what i read above in account, that i "basically" (i know its not that simple) should have a plan and stick to it (unless the game really demands me to change ways) and read into strategy's and battle plans that people use (pincer moves etc.).

looking back i'ts strange to see myself making mistakes like bringing the above mentioned list and not putting tanks on either side of the board (extra wyven or manticore wouldn't be a bad idea to hammer the back line :P) and having a bunch of conscripts standing in the middle of the board by turn 4 doing basically nothing.

 

I like this idea of aggressive playing with the guard and will take a closer look at it.

Oh and thank you warriorfish as well, i'll read thru the tactica topic you linked :D.

[WarriorFish]

If they're willing to give help then take advantage of this. Ask for a "training game" and go through your options and idea with them a bit during each turn. A good player will be happy to help, because the better you become the more fun his games against you will be :)

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

No problem, I've been playing strategy games all my life. It's all pattern recognition really. Martial arts has this thing called a false lead, it feels unnatural to do at first, but basically you trick your opponent by leading with your back hand, so for instance your lead foot may be your right, but your lead hand is the opposite. Throw a couple lead jabs to show your reach, he'll stay outside it, then you hit him with your right hand when he though he was safe. 

 

There is a distinct advantage to being turtled up, you keep things in order range, you don't over extend yourself, and you force the opponent to over extend. One of my favorite lists is a min deployment drop pod list.

 

3 Melta or flamer Dreads in drop pods

2 Grey Hunter melta squads in drop pods

1 Wolf Lord in one squad

2 vindicators

1 squad of Long fangs

 

He sees the long fangs and vindicators turtled up at the back, and assumes he can deal with it, so he deploys to counter. First turn arrives and now I drop 3 dreads in his face, and now I'm wrecking his toys. all the while I'm hammering him with vindicators, and killing his armor with long fangs. my second turn arrives and then I drop my melta squads next to whatever made it out of his deployment zone, and now I'm breaking more of his toys. Not only that, but he's having to deal with threats from both sides, his advance is now disordered as he's splitting his attention. 

 

That's just an example using one of my SW lists. Draw him in with the promise of an easy victory, and then turn his advance in on itself with accurate deep strike, then when he's disorganized break out and hit hard and fast. It's aggressive, and it works.

 

Play on assumptions, he hears guard, and he'll assume tank battalion gunline, you'll give him exactly what he expects to see, but you'll play it like tyranids. Run up and overwhelm him, he won't know what to do.

 

Musashi said that every strike should cut. If your conscripts can charge his deathstar, do it. That's what they're for, tie that nit up, He'll feel awesome about his deathstar mopping the floor with your 50 man conscript blob, until you tell him that it took him the whole game for his 600 point deathstar to kill 150 points worth of models, all the while you were free to kill everything else with impunity. 

 

The big thing with tactics is to be unpredictable, attack when you should consolidate, hold back when you should attack. Then when he expects to see you hold back attack. It'll confuse him and he won't know what to do. 

[Butcher Braxton]

Oh and another thing i thought of in the line of "how to play guard" is that maybe it would be a smart plan to snap of most of my sponsons, and magnitize them, so i can indeed go for quantity.
Take the sponsons off the 2 executioners for example and save 60 points to put in more target saturation.

More quantity plus decent strategy and tactics should at least give me a good starter.
Then i can go and build on that.

Ulrik, that is indeed a smart thing to do with your SW army and i'm sure that such tactics are also very much applicable to guard ;)

ps. i love the conscript-blob-lock-in-that-600-point-deathstar trick ;)