What Makes Iron Hands Tick =][= Retain =][=

[TheHyperion]

Hello everyone!

 

As a person who is constructing a force of Emperor's Children at them moment (And who vowed for Dark Angels for etl...) I was curious what makes Iron Hands special. I understand they have close ties with the mechanicus, so I could see someone making an allied force. However, if one were to make a fluffy Iron Hands force that still has some bite what would it have? Dreadnoughts? Techmarines? On a side note, I am confused as to the roles of the iron fathers. I have read that they are a chaplain/ techmarine hybrid, but at the same time I also read they are most similar to a captain of their company.

 

Thanks!

~Sapphon

Edited May 2, 2018 by Iron Father Ferrum

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The Iron Hands have a deep and poorly-understood (in fluff) connection with the Mechanicus.  The two factions, thanks to their technological bents and fetishes for bionics, generally work well together and do so quite often.  Just when, where, why, and how this relationship started is unknown, but the novel Iron Hands -- a relatively "meh" old BL book -- makes it sound like it's one of those "the truth is buried" situations.  Regardless, more Iron Hands (and successors) are sent to Mars for training than from the lineage of any other Primarch, and rumor is that Iron Hands Techmarines are initiated further into the mysteries of the Omnissiah than any others are, too.  It's not always an easy friendship, but it is a close one.  One of the benefits of this mechanistic bent is that they operate really well with lots of armor since they can build, recover, and repair it easily.

 

As for the ticking, the Iron Hands suffer from a similar affliction as the Emperor's Children do (marking a parallel to exceedingly close relationship between Fulgrim and Ferrus, and subsequently their Legions, during the Crusade).  Basically, they want to be perfect like the Children do.  The difference is that whereas the Children seek perfection by improving the flesh, the Hands believe that the flesh is weak and thus try betterment through replacing it with bionics.  While the widespread use of bionics began during the Great Crusade as simply a means to get wounded Marines back into the fight quicker, after Ferrus' death, it appears to have morphed into a genetic compulsion.  In the modern era, the Iron Hands just cannot help themselves and lop off perfectly healthy limbs and body parts during their careers and replace them with augmetic simulacra.  The overwhelming presence of bionics amongst their rank and file, combined with an unassailable and unflinching philosophy that despises any show of weakness in body or mind (and emotions are seen as a weakness), makes them exceedingly tough to put down.  They revere Dreadnoughts of all kinds as the ultimate expression of their philosophy of the flesh's weakness: it's the perfect, final melding of the bionic and the mechanical, housing the barest minimum of weak flesh within the massively strong and armored cocoon of a Dreadnought sarcophagus.  Especially Venerable Dreadnoughts can actually hold command rank in the Chapter, too, at least in the old fluff (see below).  Theme and rules-wise, these two traits -- tech-heavy and hard to kill -- make them a mixture of the Death Guard and the Iron Warriors despite them being philosophically a mirror to the Emperor's Children.

 

As for building a fluffy force. . . it's difficult to say for sure.  GW's been altering the fluff, in some ways drastically, starting with our previous (6th Edition) codex and the Clan Raukaan supplement.  Most of the player base on the B&C uniformly rejects the alterations made in those books in favor of the older 3rd - 5th Edition fluff, perhaps the most major sticking points being 1. turning the Chapter from a half-Codex-adherent, half-Space Wolves-y organization into black-painted Ultramarines with a bionics fetish, and 2. apparently, a Daemon of Slaanesh was born from Ferrus' death and gains power from the Iron Hands suppressing their emotions (I'll let you ponder the logic of a creature that thrives on emotion getting more powerful the less emotion you feel).

 

So that being said, *my* idea of a fluffy Iron Hands force is going to be one with at least one Techmarine on the field, supported by at least one Dreadnought and with plenty of armor (other Dreads or tanks, take your pick) in support.  It's an army that'll be more likely to rely on an Ironclad or a Vindicator to get :cuss done than a couple Assault Marines or some Devastators.  For my part, I enjoy Land Raiders because they are the ultimate expression of armored might for a Space Marine army; just the kind of massive, brutal statement that the Iron Hands like to make on a battlefield.  In fact, I tend to stick as much AV13+ in a list as I can, and I will certainly be running an Ironclad Dreadnought Talon the next time I play the game.

 

As for the Iron Fathers, that's really another casualty of the old/new fluff divide.  In the old fluff, the Iron Hands rejected the Ecclesiarchy and maintained the Cult Mechanicus as their preferred religious institution; thus, they had no Chaplains and no Rosariuses (Rosaria?) to issue.  Instead, Techmarines with particularly good oratory skills received an Icon Mechanicus (same in-game effect as a Rosarius) and a power axe, and assumed the same basic role as a Chaplain (ensuring doctrinal purity, inspiring hatred of the enemy in the line troops).  Nowadays, it's just a title given to the members of the Chapter's ruling council (they formerly refused to have a single Chapter Master after seeing what damage a single autocratic leader of a Chapter/Legion can do).  I used to represent mine on the field as a Master of the Forge.  With that option gone, despite the bump in stats of normal Techmarines, I guess I'll have to start using Chaplain rules instead -- if I've got the space in the list.

 

Any other questions we can answer for you?

[TheHyperion]

That clear the air alot, they had always been a faction I had trouvle reading the fluff with( the other being Word Bearers, but thats because I just loathe their fluff....). As a starting collector/player of emperor's children(and kinda dark angels i guess) i saw Iron Hands cross over fluff all the time, their organization had always just alluded me. It's a shame that they did not receive a special character this go around again, as they seem like a red headed step child compared to the other legions. So more questions I have, why are they so reclusive from their successors unlike other chapters. What would some fluffy wargear options be(are there any weapons they use more than other chapters ex salamanders w/ flamers and melta, dark angels with plasma). Is there any real life civilization they are based upon( Emperor's children have a roman feel believe it or not, dark angels are like knights and native americans)? If you were to make an army list what would you include, having seen the new rumors.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

why are they so reclusive from their successors unlike other chapters.

 

That's not touched on much.  If memory serves, the big deal is that the Iron Hands seem to think that they, and they alone, are hard enough and reliable enough to do what needs to be done to save the Imperium not only from its enemies, but also from itself.  Their successors, regardless of heritage, are not fellow Iron Hands and thus do not qualify.

 

 

 

What would some fluffy wargear options be(are there any weapons they use more than other chapters ex salamanders w/ flamers and melta, dark angels with plasma).

 

They don't have anything that's officially "theirs" the way that flamer/melta is "Salamander," but there are a few thematically appropriate weapons.  This is personal opinion of course, and so not universal.  First, power fists: the literal incarnation of their Chapter's name.  Second, thunder hammers: the weapon of Ferrus was Forgebreaker, a hammer, and the Iron Hands upgrade kit comes with a bionic arm holding one.  Plasma & grav: these are the most high-tech weapons in the Imperium, and the Iron Hands' close relationship with the Mechanicus and their own technophilia means they're likely to have the best equipment available.  Lastly, the Razorback.  The first mention we had of Kardan Stronos in the 5th Edition Codex: Space Marines was in the Razorback entry, where he praised the vehicle.  I have. . . three of them, I think?  Four?

 

 

 

Is there any real life civilization they are based upon( Emperor's children have a roman feel believe it or not, dark angels are like knights and native americans)?

 

Eh.  Not solely.  Some naming conventions and organizational quirks are Gaelic; the clan structure is the most obvious, but the Heresy-era Clan Company Avernii are named after a Gaulic tribe that fought against Caesar.  There's also some Greek names used (the strike cruiser in the novel Iron Hands is the Ajax, their homeworld is Medusa), and a healthy sprinkling of random science fiction-y sounding stuff (Iron Hands main character is named Gdolkin).

 

 

If you were to make an army list what would you include, having seen the new rumors.

 

Well first of all, my collection isn't focused enough to field a Demi Company and an Auxiliary Formation, so I personally won't be doing the Gladius Strike Force for a while.  That being said, the original fluff was that each Clan Company was an independent formation roughly analogous to a Battle Company but with its own veteran and scout contingents built it.  Going off of that, the Gladius works just fine without taking the 1st Company formation (I can't see much of an argument against the 10th Company one, though).  Ideally, I'd like to take a Demi-Company with the Armored Task Force and the Storm Wing, but that particular combination is probably too highly pointed.  The Librarius Conclave isn't a bad idea either; keep taking Biomancy until you roll Endurance on one of your Libbies and enjoy a 3+ FNP on a squad as a result.  This is also a fluffy little formation for us, as we have an example: Clan Raukaan in the novel Wrath of Iron deployed four Librarians who operated together and fed on each others' strength.  And definitely include the Dreadnought Talon in your Demi-Company.

 

Formations aside and building off of what I ran under the previous codex, I'd take a Chapter Master with hammer & Shield Eternal with Honor Guard and a Techmarine in a Land Raider, some Tactical Squads in Rhinos and Razorbacks, some Storm Talons for air cover, some Ironclad Dreadnoughts, and a squadron of either Vindicators or Predators (or both, if the points are there).  A full Vindi squadron is going to murderize Eldar jetbike squads (the formation's special attack Ignores Cover), while the Predator squadron bonus is Tank Hunter & Monster Hunter, which gives those nice long-range lascannons good odds at putting down a (Wraith) Knight in a turn or two of shooting.

[Firepower]

Cogs?  Maybe a few springs...tick, tock, tick, tock

 

:teehee:

[N1SB]

Hiya, I read your post earlier, really liked how you're going from the Emperor's Children to Iron Hands.

 

The reason is, although on the surface they're very different, below the surface they're very similar.

 

 

 

 

As for the ticking, the Iron Hands suffer from a similar affliction as the Emperor's Children do (marking a parallel to exceedingly close relationship between Fulgrim and Ferrus, and subsequently their Legions, during the Crusade).  Basically, they want to be perfect like the Children do.  The difference is that whereas the Children seek perfection by improving the flesh, the Hands believe that the flesh is weak and thus try betterment through replacing it with bionics. 

 

 

That is a great explanation IMHO, and defines what makes Iron Hands tick.

 

When I started reading the Horus Heresy novels, it was this that stuck out.  The Phoenix and the Gorgon had much more that united them than divided them.  It's this philosophy that defines the Iron Hands more than simply being Marines with more bionics.

 

IMHO, the bionic limbs are simply the most obvious manifestation that the Iron Hands Space Marine process goes for much longer than the 19 Phases of implants (y'know, 2nd heart, Lyman's ear, black carapace, etc.)  It's a life-long process, always striving to be a better Space Marine, including the addition of more bionics as just one aspect.

 

Thus, IMHO, the Iron Father's significance as a Chaplain + Techmarine is tied with that constant self-improvement.  A Captain leads, a Techmarine fixes tanks, a Librarian does Librarian things, but it is the Iron Father who facilitates an Iron Hand's growth as a Space Marine, through mentorship and bionics.

 

The above is what I think makes Iron Hands tick: striving to be better, the Space Marine creation process extending beyond the 19 Phases to include life-long additions of bionics, and the Iron Fathers to guide that ongoing process.  How we present that via miniatures, however, is kinda tricky, leading to...

 

 

 

So more questions I have, why are they so reclusive from their successors unlike other chapters. What would some fluffy wargear options be(are there any weapons they use more than other chapters ex salamanders w/ flamers and melta, dark angels with plasma). Is there any real life civilization they are based upon( Emperor's children have a roman feel believe it or not, dark angels are like knights and native americans)? If you were to make an army list what would you include, having seen the new rumors.

 

 

These are great questions.  I went through the same exercise as you.  Here's my conclusions.

 

 

Reclusive from their Successors - they had a slight...not exactly a fallout, but a friendly parting of ways with at least 1 of their Successors.  Long story short - there was a Moirae Schism that split the Iron Hands apart in the proper reverence of the Emperor and the Omnissiah.  As a result, the Iron Council had to intervene, and it was decided that 1/3 of the Iron Hands then would leave with their beliefs to found the Sons of Medusa.  An existing Successor, called the Red Talons, felt the Iron Council went soft, and did not like that split.  Please note it's nowhere as dramatic as what happened to the Dark Angels, but I see that event as causing some sort of tension.

 

 

Fluffy Wargear - I agree with Deus Ex Ferrum, I actually feel Dreadnoughts (regular, Ironclad, Venerable, Contemptors) are perhaps the most iconic thing to represent Iron Hands on the tabletop.  Aside from that, obviously, bionic parts.  In fact, I'm going to field a Contemptor as an Ironclad with the new Codex (just arrived, it's gonna look sweet) and Bionics Bitz from a 3rd party miniatures company.  The greatest weapon in an Iron Hands arsenal is an Iron Hands marine himself, from his constant self-improvement.  It fits with the meta where IH HQs, like the 4-Wounded Chapter Master, is popular for his IWND.  However, in terms of special/heavy weapons, I think the fluffiest option would be: Grav weapons.  Rare, ancient tech, almost revered...it's like you need to have friends in Ad Mech just to get a shipment of these things.  Thus, for your purposes, IMHO please consider the new Codex with its many options for Grav weaponry.

 

 

(Way to catch the association of Dark Angels with Native Americans.  I felt most new players wouldn't know about that anymore.  I swear one day I will paint some Terminators like the Deathwing novella.)

 

 

Real Life Civilisation - Purely IMHO, there is a parallel between Iron Hands and something established, but not from real life.  It's still from fiction.  It's from the post-apocalyptic fantasy that was very popular in the '80s.  It's like when cartoons/books back then like Thundarr the Barbarian, Ralph Bakshi's Wizards, Sword of Shannara, Heavy Metal magazine comics, any number of Heavy Metal music album cover, some D&D settings where people go into a dungeon and find laser guns they think are magical wands, etc.  The closest still famous equivalent would be something like parts of Fallout.  They're not completely feral, but it's like sufficient advanced technology has become mistaken for magic.  This is strongly hinted at in the old Index Astartes, where there's Storm Giants (Ferrus Manus challenged one) and Silver Dragons (which Ferrus Manus choked and got his metallic arms), so you have fantasy elements.  Then it talks about a haunted area, of giant metal structures, which is said to be haunted.  That area is probably some buildings from the Dark Age of Technology, where there's holographic recordings playing that people think are ghosts.  That almost suggests the fantasy elements of Storm Giants and Silver Dragons are simply like ancient Kastellan Robots or something.  Now, this is just my personal interpretation, and I'm biased because I think that art-style looks awesome.

 

 

What Army Would I Make - I'm actually making one right now.  It'll be Iron Hands + Ad Mech and some key elements:

 

Ironclad Dreadnought - he's not the HQ, but fluff-wise the Iron Father, improved in melee with new codex

 

Tactical Troops - I'm putting them in Mark III Iron Armour pattern suits, with special face painting to tell squads apart.  Ancient pre-Mark VI power armour is usually considered fancy, masterwork, but Mark III was a bit of a jury-rig job of putting more plates on the front than the back.  I reckoned it looked more Heavy Metal, plus not difficult to do considering they're allied with Ad Mech for this army.

 

Scouts with bionics from 3rd party miniatures companies - the new codex, upping their WS/BS to 4, really solidified this.  Instead of being neophytes, I see them as full Battle Brothers that got their bionics from doing hazardous behind-enemy-lines duties.  Very excited about this change, completely changes the flavour of this unit for me.

 

Heavy Support - none right now, actually.  My Ad Mech troops, the Kataphron, actually fit the role of long-range support really good.  I'm looking at that 3 Tank + Techmarine Formation, really unsure.

 

Things I'm considering:

 

Forge World Vehicles or Superheavies - My FLGS is quite friendly towards FW stuff.  It's pretty friendly and they see FW as just some new exotic toy.  Due to the Iron Hands' relationship with the Ad Mech and technology, everyone's asking what FW vehicle I'm taking and are disappointed I hadn't picked one up yet.  If your FLGS is like mine, bewarned!  People will want to see something fancy.  An Imperial Knight isn't enough to cut it, lol.

 

1st Turn Drop Pod Melta Command Squad using FW models - the 1st turn Drop Pod full of Melta Command Squaddies is a popular tactic, a suicide unit to take out enemy Superheavies or Imperial Knights, etc.  With the new FNP enhancement, I'm thinking of taking this squad with an Apothecary for a 4+ FNP (assuming my understanding of rumours is correct).  Then I'm using the Iron Hand Immortal models, who have this giant shield with a big ol' Iron Hands icon on the front.  Very excited for this as well.

 

---

 

Whew!  Sorry for long post, no time to write a short one.  But those are great questions, which I personally considered myself, and here are my current conclusions.

[TheHyperion]

Hiya, I read your post earlier, really liked how you're going from the Emperor's Children to Iron Hands.

 

The reason is, although on the surface they're very different, below the surface they're very similar.

 

 

 

As for the ticking, the Iron Hands suffer from a similar affliction as the Emperor's Children do (marking a parallel to exceedingly close relationship between Fulgrim and Ferrus, and subsequently their Legions, during the Crusade).  Basically, they want to be perfect like the Children do.  The difference is that whereas the Children seek perfection by improving the flesh, the Hands believe that the flesh is weak and thus try betterment through replacing it with bionics.

 

 

 

That is a great explanation IMHO, and defines what makes Iron Hands tick.

 

When I started reading the Horus Heresy novels, it was this that stuck out.  The Phoenix and the Gorgon had much more that united them than divided them.  It's this philosophy that defines the Iron Hands more than simply being Marines with more bionics.

 

IMHO, the bionic limbs are simply the most obvious manifestation that the Iron Hands Space Marine process goes for much longer than the 19 Phases of implants (y'know, 2nd heart, Lyman's ear, black carapace, etc.)  It's a life-long process, always striving to be a better Space Marine, including the addition of more bionics as just one aspect.

 

Thus, IMHO, the Iron Father's significance as a Chaplain + Techmarine is tied with that constant self-improvement.  A Captain leads, a Techmarine fixes tanks, a Librarian does Librarian things, but it is the Iron Father who facilitates an Iron Hand's growth as a Space Marine, through mentorship and bionics.

 

The above is what I think makes Iron Hands tick: striving to be better, the Space Marine creation process extending beyond the 19 Phases to include life-long additions of bionics, and the Iron Fathers to guide that ongoing process.  How we present that via miniatures, however, is kinda tricky, leading to...

 

 

So more questions I have, why are they so reclusive from their successors unlike other chapters. What would some fluffy wargear options be(are there any weapons they use more than other chapters ex salamanders w/ flamers and melta, dark angels with plasma). Is there any real life civilization they are based upon( Emperor's children have a roman feel believe it or not, dark angels are like knights and native americans)? If you were to make an army list what would you include, having seen the new rumors.

 

 

 

These are great questions.  I went through the same exercise as you.  Here's my conclusions.

 

 

Reclusive from their Successors - they had a slight...not exactly a fallout, but a friendly parting of ways with at least 1 of their Successors.  Long story short - there was a Moirae Schism that split the Iron Hands apart in the proper reverence of the Emperor and the Omnissiah.  As a result, the Iron Council had to intervene, and it was decided that 1/3 of the Iron Hands then would leave with their beliefs to found the Sons of Medusa.  An existing Successor, called the Red Talons, felt the Iron Council went soft, and did not like that split.  Please note it's nowhere as dramatic as what happened to the Dark Angels, but I see that event as causing some sort of tension.

 

 

Fluffy Wargear - I agree with Deus Ex Ferrum, I actually feel Dreadnoughts (regular, Ironclad, Venerable, Contemptors) are perhaps the most iconic thing to represent Iron Hands on the tabletop.  Aside from that, obviously, bionic parts.  In fact, I'm going to field a Contemptor as an Ironclad with the new Codex (just arrived, it's gonna look sweet) and Bionics Bitz from a 3rd party miniatures company.  The greatest weapon in an Iron Hands arsenal is an Iron Hands marine himself, from his constant self-improvement.  It fits with the meta where IH HQs, like the 4-Wounded Chapter Master, is popular for his IWND.  However, in terms of special/heavy weapons, I think the fluffiest option would be: Grav weapons.  Rare, ancient tech, almost revered...it's like you need to have friends in Ad Mech just to get a shipment of these things.  Thus, for your purposes, IMHO please consider the new Codex with its many options for Grav weaponry.

 

 

(Way to catch the association of Dark Angels with Native Americans.  I felt most new players wouldn't know about that anymore.  I swear one day I will paint some Terminators like the Deathwing novella.)

 

 

Real Life Civilisation - Purely IMHO, there is a parallel between Iron Hands and something established, but not from real life.  It's still from fiction.  It's from the post-apocalyptic fantasy that was very popular in the '80s.  It's like when cartoons/books back then like Thundarr the Barbarian, Ralph Bakshi's Wizards, Sword of Shannara, Heavy Metal magazine comics, any number of Heavy Metal music album cover, some D&D settings where people go into a dungeon and find laser guns they think are magical wands, etc.  The closest still famous equivalent would be something like parts of Fallout.  They're not completely feral, but it's like sufficient advanced technology has become mistaken for magic.  This is strongly hinted at in the old Index Astartes, where there's Storm Giants (Ferrus Manus challenged one) and Silver Dragons (which Ferrus Manus choked and got his metallic arms), so you have fantasy elements.  Then it talks about a haunted area, of giant metal structures, which is said to be haunted.  That area is probably some buildings from the Dark Age of Technology, where there's holographic recordings playing that people think are ghosts.  That almost suggests the fantasy elements of Storm Giants and Silver Dragons are simply like ancient Kastellan Robots or something.  Now, this is just my personal interpretation, and I'm biased because I think that art-style looks awesome.

 

 

What Army Would I Make - I'm actually making one right now.  It'll be Iron Hands + Ad Mech and some key elements:

 

Ironclad Dreadnought - he's not the HQ, but fluff-wise the Iron Father, improved in melee with new codex

 

Tactical Troops - I'm putting them in Mark III Iron Armour pattern suits, with special face painting to tell squads apart.  Ancient pre-Mark VI power armour is usually considered fancy, masterwork, but Mark III was a bit of a jury-rig job of putting more plates on the front than the back.  I reckoned it looked more Heavy Metal, plus not difficult to do considering they're allied with Ad Mech for this army.

 

Scouts with bionics from 3rd party miniatures companies - the new codex, upping their WS/BS to 4, really solidified this.  Instead of being neophytes, I see them as full Battle Brothers that got their bionics from doing hazardous behind-enemy-lines duties.  Very excited about this change, completely changes the flavour of this unit for me.

 

Heavy Support - none right now, actually.  My Ad Mech troops, the Kataphron, actually fit the role of long-range support really good.  I'm looking at that 3 Tank + Techmarine Formation, really unsure.

 

Things I'm considering:

 

Forge World Vehicles or Superheavies - My FLGS is quite friendly towards FW stuff.  It's pretty friendly and they see FW as just some new exotic toy.  Due to the Iron Hands' relationship with the Ad Mech and technology, everyone's asking what FW vehicle I'm taking and are disappointed I hadn't picked one up yet.  If your FLGS is like mine, bewarned!  People will want to see something fancy.  An Imperial Knight isn't enough to cut it, lol.

 

1st Turn Drop Pod Melta Command Squad using FW models - the 1st turn Drop Pod full of Melta Command Squaddies is a popular tactic, a suicide unit to take out enemy Superheavies or Imperial Knights, etc.  With the new FNP enhancement, I'm thinking of taking this squad with an Apothecary for a 4+ FNP (assuming my understanding of rumours is correct).  Then I'm using the Iron Hand Immortal models, who have this giant shield with a big ol' Iron Hands icon on the front.  Very excited for this as well.

 

---

 

Whew!  Sorry for long post, no time to write a short one.  But those are great questions, which I personally considered myself, and here are my current conclusions.

Thank you both for all the info so far! Im not currently switching, and I may not in the future sadly( i have alot of un painted dark angels stuff) However these questions are morw because of the distraction of the new codex making me tempted to pick an army from there... But I cant be, I gotta finish an army for once. :D its also good to know because of how close of allies emperor's children and iron hands used to be... Speaking of, where did you find the Ferrus' head turning into a Slaaneshi Daemon? Thats hilarious XD

[CyderPirate]

Its in the Raukaan book - the Saphire King, I think he's called.

Its clumsily written, but I think there was some potential in the story.

The despair and rage and shame of Ferrus's death, and how close we came to falling manifesting in the warp as a Slaaneshi demon that torments the Iron tenth to this day...

[TheHyperion]

Ok, more questions, mostly due to retconning. Other than the Sapphire King, what else did Raukaan add that as so controversial? how was it organized back in the "good old days?" I heard they used to be able to use terminator armor in their standard squads for sergeants (which seems awful, I know space wolves can do that...). 

[Corton]

Ok, more questions, mostly due to retconning. Other than the Sapphire King, what else did Raukaan add that as so controversial? how was it organized back in the "good old days?" I heard they used to be able to use terminator armor in their standard squads for sergeants (which seems awful, I know space wolves can do that...). 

  I'll field this one.  Back in 2002-2003 the initial installment of playable rules came out for the Iron Hands.  At that time, their organization consisted of ten companies, much like most chapters of Space Marines.  There however is where the similarities ended.  Each was an autonomous company in its own right, boasting it's own veterans, scouts, armouries, and so on, and varied widely on their own structure and equipment.  They were responsible for their own recruitment, and each was given a huge land crawler as a base of operations for each company.  There was no Chapter Master, but instead a council of 10 representatives that decided the course of action for the Chapter.  They even had minor skirmishes between between clans, and was viewed in a positive light as this kept the weaker elements from dragging the stronger.

 

 Yes they did indeed use Terminator Sergeants for their squads.  I think the upgrade was more for a fluff stand point, not for a useful combination.  I did however get myself out of many a jam with them by not dying in combat to contest or outright claim an objective.  They also had access to a Venerable Dreadnought that was a HQ model, with the option of adding a company banner to it.  And then finally the Iron Father.  This beast  had an old school captains profile, a Servo arm, Power Axe, Bionics, and a 4+ invuln.  He came with the Blessing of the Omnissiah, and I want to say Honor of the Chapter (Fearless for him and the unit).  Now, well...   

Edited June 12, 2015 by Corton

[Ascanius]

Yeah, I just posted a thread about that "sergeants in Terminator armour" thing.

 

The old flavour for the Iron Hands was that, instead of codex-compliant companies - 1st veterans, 2nd-5th battle, 6th tactical and bikes, 7th tactical and speeders, 8th assault, 9th devastator, 10th scouts - each of the ten clans was organised like a codex battle company with the addition of its own complement of veterans, recruits, vehicles, et cetera.

 

Now, the notion is that the clans are just the names for the Iron Hands' otherwise codex-compliant companies. So instead of First Company veterans, you have Clan Avernii veterans, who are promoted to the Clan Company from other companies.

 

Dumb.

Edited June 12, 2015 by mhacdebhandia

[Brother_Ead]

There was a bit about emotion, how the Iron Hands used a neural implant to suppress their's for millenia, and that this fed the Sapphire King. By suppressing emotion, the Iron Hands left no-place else for it to go than into the warp where it fed that greater daemon of Slannesh. We defeated the Sapphire King by turning off the neural implants. Iron Hands that didn't turn them off were turned to chaos spawn. Without the emotion suppressors holding us back we become angrier than the angriest Black Templars. So at that point the Sapphire King was toast. He had his head blown off by the force staff of our Chief Librarian.

 

This bit of fluff is controversial for two reasons 1) some people don't like the emotional angle and prefer the cool, detached killers we used to be. 2) we supposedly got into the emotion suppressing practice because Ferrus's uncontrolled anger is what got him killed. Nobody actually thinks that, least of all an Iron Hand. We take enough crap from the other First Founding chapters for our Primarch's beheading as it is, making it his own fault is just too much.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Brother_Ead

[TheHyperion]

A couple more questions of the top of my head. What would be the perfect fluff for Iron Hands to patch up all the differences of past and present and how would it be instituted(new codex, suplement, etc) Also, what would the perfect special character look like to you to represent the iron hands? If you made an army list, what would be in a fluffy strong army list?

Thanks everyone

~Sapphon

(Always trying to learn about all the space marines, they are my favorite race(i guess? They arent really human))

[N1SB]

A couple more questions of the top of my head. What would be the perfect fluff for Iron Hands to patch up all the differences of past and present and how would it be instituted(new codex, suplement, etc) Also, what would the perfect special character look like to you to represent the iron hands? If you made an army list, what would be in a fluffy strong army list?

 

I was re-reading the original IH Index Astartes, then Clan Raukaan, then the new SM codex.

 

I have a strange notion, it's a little bit meta-theatrical, but it's a tidy patch to the past/present differences.

 

 

--- past and present ---

 

 

Clan Raukaan added unnecessary stuff, tried too hard to explain Iron Fathers, then IMHO (and perhaps your opinions, too) really stumbled hard by treating the Clan Companies as Codex Astartes/Ultramarine-style Companies.  It took away the self-reliant, independent organisation of the Iron Hands.  The other key elements of IH, like bionics and Venerable Dreadnoughts, are still around.

 

Thus, IMHO, the last outlying issue was that Clan Company one, the one thing to "fix" from the Raukaan book.

 

 

--- competitive fluffy list ---

 

 

With the new Codex, the most competitive list is very likely the full Battle Company formation.  In case you missed it, it's basically 1 Captain, 1 Chaplain, 6 Tac Squads, 2 Assault-type units, 2 Devastator-type units, some "Auxiliary" detachment.  That gives basically everything but the Auxiliary Objective Secured and free Dedicated Transports (so you can have Dev Centurions secure objectives, with their Drop Pod, which they get for free).

 

IMHO, that's so competitive, it's the new meta.  THIS is what people think of as a SM Company.

 

Moreover, IMHO IH benefits that formation the most due to lots of FNP bodies and free IWND vehicles.

 

The Iron Hands' Iron Council actually have meetings.  In the Raukaan supplement, they call it the Great Calculation.  There, they make massive decisions and even invite their Successors to participate, even estranged ones like Sons of Medusa, with their experience and data points.  With their Cold Calculus of War outlook, wouldn't it be reasonable for them to consider the full Battle Company as a more competitive approach, and adopt it as a a Clan Company?

 

Even if they don't state it in new fluff, people will see the full Battle Company formation as the de facto organisation anyway, so the question for a fluffy competitive list actually resolves the previous past/present difference IMHO.

 

 

--- ideal character ---

 

 

Even though GW didn't make a special character, the Internet did.  The name I know it by is Chapter Master Smashfxxxer.  This special character is a IH Chapter Tactics Chapter Master, on a bike, with a power weapon of choice, Artificer Armour and either Shield Eternal or Gorgon's Chains.  He's made his way into tourney lists and people give him a name, sometimes refer to him as Stronos or something, but in my FLGS I can say Chapter Master Smashfxxxer and people have a better idea of who that is than many GW characters.

 

 

--- if you think my answers are kinda weird, please consider the following ---

 

 

I'm basically using the meta, our opinions in this forum, teh Interwebz, /tg/ as my reference point for Iron Hands fluff/meta.

 

That might seem weird, but consider what Iron Hands are.  Technologically-savvy, not Codex-Astartes reliant, but self-reliant instead.  We form an Iron Council where we invite different opinions and debate them to have the best possible options, ignoring the pomp & circumstance of other Chapters.

 

I know to many that it makes more sense to look to GW to supply fluff for us to follow.  However, that's Ultramarine-style thinking, waiting for someone to hand us a published book, like the Codex Astartes, waiting for it to tell us what to do.  It's not wrong, but that's for Ultramarines, for their Successors.

 

As I delve more and more into the IH way of thinking, it is so serendipitous that more ideas about the IH came from the Internet from GW.  Our collecting casting out of the Raukaan supplement, an Internet-created Chapter Master that seemingly everyone knows of...if there's a better reflection of a people willing to casting off their limbs to be replaced with better technological ones, I can't think of it.  Best part is, this wasn't planned, some grand viral scheme...it is simply what we are.

[Brother_Ead]

In my view, not much, except that real Iron Hands do NOT think Ferrus Manus died in vain. Some of us may blame the Salamanders or Raven Guard for weakness at Istvan. We are all deeply concerned that the Imperium isn't strong enough to deal with the threats it faces. In our darkest moments we doubt our own strength as well, but that is why we continuously improve ourselves. I really like the idea that our bionic enhancements are just a continuation of the process of engineering a mortal human into a post-human Astartes. That is excellent.

 

Dealing with emotion is not bad fluff by itself, and overall I found the old Index Astartes fluff a little bit one-dimensional. I like the treatment of the Iron Hands in the Horus Heresy books. I just think there isn't enough of it.

 

So, all I would change is how Iron Hands view the death of their Primarch. We don't have Black Rage the way Blood Angels do, but it's very similar. Of all the first frounding chapters I believe we have the most to prove to ourselves and the biggest chips on our shoulders.

[Brother_Ead]

For list, I say load up on command squads, independent characters, and Dreadnoughts. Take a demi company with a command squad, apothacary, and full unit of venerable dreadnoughts. Take a Strike force command with another chaplain or captain and command squad with apothacary. Take a Reclusiam command squad with another apothacary. Finally, take a librarius and go Biomancy. You'll have 9 models that Will Not Die, and three squads with 4+ Feel No Pain. Outfit your characters to be as ded 'ard as possible.

[Brother Marine Carl Strack]

Brother Marines,

 

The 7th ed Codex: Space Marine has an awesome section on Iron Hands history and fluff, and C:SM Supplement "Clan Raukaan" goes into even further detail. Both sources are a very good read.

 

All your fluff questions will be answered.

 

I believe Iron Hands are far from being dead, as some on this forum would lead you to believe.

 

I think many in this forum are overanalysing the fluff. I'm quite satisfied with what both C:SM and S:CR present, and I will be building my force to reflect the latest info.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Brother Marine Carl Strack

[Terminus]

Brother Marines,

 

The 7th ed Codex: Space Marine has an awesome section on Iron Hands history and fluff, and C:SM Supplement "Clan Raukaan" goes into even further detail. Both sources are a very good read.

 

All your fluff questions will be answered.

 

I believe Iron Hands are far from being dead, as some on this forum would lead you to believe.

 

I think many in this forum are overanalysing the fluff. I'm quite satisfied with what both C:SM and S:CR present, and I will be building my force to reflect the latest info.

For what it's worth, I liked the background material in Clan Raukaan. The Index Astartes and especially the FW Horus Heresy books painted Ferrus as a raging sociopath, and the whole Legion/Chapter so on the verge of damnation that Thousand Sons and Fire Hawks look at them sideways. 

 

The Priest of Mars trilogy also touched on how easy it is for a detached robotic-like mentality to turn to Chaos, much like the outbreak that happens in the Clan Raukaan book. The Black Library Horus Heresy books have tried to soften Ferrus a bit by having him express concern at his sons' obsession with bionics (then again, his concern was rooted in what they would do after the battles were all ended, which they now clearly never will).

Edited June 12, 2015 by Terminus

[Bellarius]

Brother Marines,

 

The 7th ed Codex: Space Marine has an awesome section on Iron Hands history and fluff, and C:SM Supplement "Clan Raukaan" goes into even further detail. Both sources are a very good read.

 

All your fluff questions will be answered.

 

I believe Iron Hands are far from being dead, as some on this forum would lead you to believe.

 

I think many in this forum are overanalysing the fluff. I'm quite satisfied with what both C:SM and S:CR present, and I will be building my force to reflect the latest info.

 

 

Or you could advise him to read well written lore, actual lore like Wrath of Iron, the Horus Heresy rulebooks and Index Astartes rather than betrayals created by those who feel nothing but contempt for Ferrus' chapter. If he looks there he would find actual Iron Hands, not impostors forged by spiteful writing standing in their place.

 

Sorry, each to their own of course, but I don't like the accusation that the complete and total destruction of my chapter's identity and penmanship so poorly handled that I produce better codices every time I wipe my backside is only deemed wrong thanks to over-analysis. It's hardly generous to suggest those who stuck with this chapter when it was ignored and shunned by every writer in Games Workshop have no right to object when their army's very soul is stripped from it and replaced by a poor mockery of what they once were.

 

Deus Ex Ferrum put this better than I ever could, but in my personal opinion what makes them "tick" is a desire to excel. At their core the chapter has a perfectionist streak of self-reliance which encourages them to improve, enhance and develop themselves further. Astartes biological enhancements are one step forwards towards greater improvements, but I personally think that they felt that was not enough. Why stop at greater eyesight in the dark when an astartes could survive a procedure to have them see in ultraviolet, night vision and heat vision all at once, and why stop at power armour when the very body itself could be turned into a unstoppable juggernaut. The astartes were made to be weapons, and the Iron Hands have sought the most direct route to build themselves into better blades and bolters to slay in the Emperor's name. As much as they abhor weakness, I think it's also a desire for strength and perfection, but this is just a personal view of course.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Bellarius

[Lord Ragnarok]

It saddens me how much GW has diluted the fluff/rules of the iron hands. They were one of the first IA's I read upon entering the hobby in 2004. Like the Space Wolves. who I ultimately adopted as my favorite, I liked how unique they were in their organization.

[N1SB]

A minor note, but a sobering one.  After pouring over the rules in the new codex, I went back and looked at the fluff.  In an Iron Hands blurb (p. 31 in the hard copy), it really highlights Kardan Stronos and the themes of the Raukaan supplement.  It's like GW really wants to have the Raukaan supplement re-define what makes the Iron Hands tick, like how Kardan Stronos is using Clan Raukaan as the example of what the Iron Hands should become.

 

Thus, instead of having cold, calculating, self-reliant Clans, to emotional iron cages containing "the bitter fires of a fury long repressed" below the surface, that we have to save our "atrophied souls".

 

I dunno, I'm feeling a lot of "bitter fires of a fury long repressed" towards GW right now.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Not 1 Step Backwards

[Toothbrush of Terra]

I actually was refraining from talking about the blurb on page 31 until someone brought it up because I didn't want to lead with an enormous downer, but so long as we're bringing it up, that small segment actually made me physically queasy. I don't really have visceral reactions of displeasure like that with things, but this was really bad.

 

"However, the hour grows late, and if the Iron Hands are to know true redemption, they must seize it before darkness engulfs them."

 

There are SO many things wrong with this.

 

1. As the hour grows late. Late? I know the whole trope in 40K is the apocalyptic countdown to the 42nd millenium, but the idea that there's a countdown to a magical moment when the Iron Hands will magically become beep-booping soulless robots is to me completely absurd. Oh, no wait, I must be wrong because GW thinks we already are soulless automata.

 

2. I despise the idea that GW has been pushing lately of a possible light at the end of the tunnel, a redemption for the Iron Hands to grasp at and save them from some darkness. What is the central tenement of 40K - the one phrase that defines the universe over all others? In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war. Only war! Only! War! Not "only war and a faint shimmering hope that makes the universe palatable and appeals to the optimist in all of us"! 40K is the universe in which the optimist in all of us is smothered dead, where the universe has gone "everyone is inherently a terrible person", embraced that idea, and turned it up to 11! There's no possible redemption from the darkness because the darkness is already here.

 

3. The real part that made me sick in the first place, the salt in the wound, is "if the Iron Hands are to know true redemption". It is entirely impossible for the Iron Hands to be redeemed, not because they're irredeemable either, but because the Iron Hands have no ******* need for redemption! In the eyes of the Iron Hands, the idea of perfecting themselves as weapons at the cost of their human frailty isn't a damnation, it's sticking true to a path that most other chapters have fallen away from - that of the eternal war, the very purpose for which the Space Marines were made. The Iron Hands aren't supposed to be sympathetic, they aren't supposed to be the good guys, they're supposed to do the job they set out to do better than anyone else can do it. The idea that straying from that ideal is something that needs to be redeemed is, as far as I'm concerned, a base betrayal of the Chapter's creed. It would get you killed just as fast as saying to the Black Templars that psykers aren't inherently wicked, they're just dangero-- oh no wait, never mind, that's changed too.

 

I'm sorry if I sound a little preachy/overly upset right now. And if anyone disagrees with my opinions I completely respect that and that's one of the more awesome things about our hobby, we can all make it our own. I just really am not happy with GW's direction for us, and in the 1/3rd of a page they gave us in the new Codex they managed to embody all the new alterations to our fluff while simultaneously minimizing the cool stuff that they hadn't changed anyway. I guess one good sign is all the pretty vocal indignation here on the B&C is encouraging, as it means that the old idea of the Iron Hands is going to continue to live on in the eyes and hearts of the community (and in the books of Forge World and Chris Wraight, thank the Emperor for them).

 

Still though, at least the art piece on pg 30-31 is one of the best in the new Codex :)

[Brother_Ead]

You know what I think is great? The topic of new fluff versus old fluff mirrors exactly the conflict between Kardan Stronos's Clan Raukaan and the rest of the Iron Hands. It's almost like we're the Iron Council.

[CyderPirate]

I haven't got my copy of the new 'dex yet, sadly, so until I can read it for myself, I'll play devil's advocate.

 

 

The Iron Hands are in need of redemption, from the Imperium's point of view. In Wrath of Iron we see that greater and greater levels of bionic modification gradually tear us away from the warp, our souls diminishing each time we remove something of our flesh, leading us further and further from the Emperor's light. For ourselves, that's not such a worry, but for the Imperium at large, the Chapter is in dire need of rescuing. Especially when considered alongside our tendency not to cooperate with other Imperial forces, like the issue with the Raven Guard, the annihilation of an IG regiment for not having the correct clearance near a quarantined zone, and leaving a Catachan regiment to be wiped out by Eldar.

 

In Clan Raukaan, we see (a rather cartoonish version) what happens when our traditional line of thinking is brought to its conclusion, when vast numbers of our upper echelons are brought low by their desire to completely the mechanical apotheosis and become one with the machine (yes, I'm referring to that ridiculous ambush). The IH needed to change their ways.

 

 

My main issue with Stronos isn't that he's trying to alter the chapter, but the fact that the rest of the council has become so complacent that he has been elected to act as CM so often. It undermines the very reason that we don't have a Chapter Master, and suggests that he has used his authority to remove any competitors and makes him little more than a tyrant and a despot in my eyes. 

 

The light at the end of the tunnel thing is nothing new to our chapter, or 40k in general. For the Imperium its usually waiting for the Primarchs, or the Emperor to return (even we have our stories of Ferrus being returned to us) and can pretty much be written off. Its intended as an impossibility that's dangled in front of us as motivation. The IH will no more 'cure' themselves than will the Blood Angels or the Space Wolves.

 

 

@Brother_Ead: I remember someone saying the same last time around! It is a great little reflection. Everything from the philosophical to the practical is discussed, analysed and argued over. I love that the IH players so often embody the characteristics of the chapter.

[N1SB]

I actually was refraining from talking about the blurb on page 31 until someone brought it up because I didn't want to lead with an enormous downer, but so long as we're bringing it up, that small segment actually made me physically queasy.

 

 

lol!  What hath I wrought.

 

 

You know what I think is great? The topic of new fluff versus old fluff mirrors exactly the conflict between Kardan Stronos's Clan Raukaan and the rest of the Iron Hands. It's almost like we're the Iron Council.

 

 

So true!  And so meta!

 

 

I haven't got my copy of the new 'dex yet, sadly, so until I can read it for myself, I'll play devil's advocate.

 

The light at the end of the tunnel thing is nothing new to our chapter, or 40k in general. For the Imperium its usually waiting for the Primarchs, or the Emperor to return (even we have our stories of Ferrus being returned to us) and can pretty much be written off. Its intended as an impossibility that's dangled in front of us as motivation. The IH will no more 'cure' themselves than will the Blood Angels or the Space Wolves.

 

 

I actually admire how you played the devil's advocate despite our peer pressure.

 

For the record, GW's stance I think matches yours.  Page 31 supports your very valid points.

 

I was just going to comment on the return of the Primarchs trope.  There was something I noticed before I started my IH army, it was a poll on another 40k forum on which Primarch had the silliest name.  Ferrus Manus polled highly there, because his name literally means Iron Hands.  I thought about that for a bit, then read some old fluff, and then the Horus Heresy books, started building my own interpretation.

 

Here's my thinking.  Ferrus Manus was one of the few Primarchs who didn't unify his homeworld, largely because he liked it being fragmented, so that his peoples continued to compete and better themselves.  The 10th Legion wasn't named the Iron Hands at 1st, they were the Stormwalkers.  Ferrus Manus kind of named it after himself, but the Gorgon has shown time and again he's not really driven by ego (like how he quite enjoyed being nicknamed after a hideous monster).

 

But why?  My interpretation, just IMHO, was that he so believed in how people should better themselves that he expected his Legionnaires to reach his level eventually, to replace him, to "be" him.  So his naming his Legion after himself was a constant reminder that he meant for one of his to take his place, that he acknowledged he may not be the 1st of equals as there's always someone getting better and better.  It's like, either all of us are meant to replace Manus, or none of us are.