82nd Harakoni Warhawks

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I've posted about this before, but this is a very specific kind of question. I'm looking for ways to represent them on the tabletop, as they are a lot like Elysians, but also very similar to Militarum Tempestus, but they make full use of heavy weapons squads. 

 

Here's my reference 

 

I tried to do homebrew rules for an army of them, but that sort of snowballed into something else, though I might revisit that and take it back to the basic idea. 

 

I was thinking of using a stormtrooper heavy list of elysians with a couple of Vet squads as the mandatory troops choices, but how to get the heavy weapons squads? 

 

 

[CoffeeGrunt]

Oooohhh, perfect to use the Elysian models for and run them as Tempestus, (thus making those expensive Elysians go a bit further!) The name alone is awesome, nevermind the fluff! :D

[hendrik]

cadians with rebreathers, greenstuffed armour (it doesn't look too hard, only a codpiece, cuisses and elbow pads should do the trick) and shortened lasguns?

this topic gave some good/cheap results imo

http://commissar.proboards.com/thread/6357

forgeworld sells individual gravchutes as well, so that might be worth looking into?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Elysian_Drop_Troops/GRAV_CHUTE_PACK_OF_10.html

alternatively, you could convert space marine backpacks i guess

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I'm not so concerned with models, I was going to use my scions and Kasrkin, as they are stormtrooper models. Cadians with rebreathers and a bit of green stuff would be the way I'd probably go, and maybe put grav chutes on them. I'm more thinking about rules wise. 

 

The Harakoni Warhawks were the starting inspiration for my 2nd Special Service Force. They're slightly different than Elysiand in that I think they use all of the heavy weapons available to the Imperial Guard.

 

Currently the core CAD looks as following using the Elysian list:

 

HQ

Company Command Squad

- 2 AGL, 2 plasma guns

 

Elites

Stormtrooper Squad, 8 man 2 plasma guns, sergeant / bolt pistol HSLG and CCW Airborne Assault, Valkyrie w/Rocket pods

Stormtrooper Squad, 8 man 2 plasma guns, sergeant / bolt pistol HSLG and CCW Reconnaissance

Stormtrooper Squad, 8 man 2 plasma guns, sergeant / bolt pistol HSLG and CCW Behind enemy lines

 

Troops

Veterans, 3 Melta guns, carapace armor, forward observers, sgt/ bolt pistol & powerfist 

Veterans, 3 Plasma guns, carapace armor, forward observers, sgt/ plasma pistol & power sword 

 

Fast Attack

Vendetta squadron

 

I allied in a regular IG guard CCS for a master of ordnance and an infantry platoon with 2 HWS (3 mortars, 1 Heavy Bolter, 2 Autocannons) as well as a my Armored sentinels. 

 

I plan on getting another box of cadians to build some more riflemen so I can make my IS's WYSIWYG, and build a SWS. 

 

This arrangement seems really cumbersome and costs a lot of points, not to mention it doesn't really fit the elite theme. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I've begun working on a battlescribe catalog for this army list, I'm still ironing out some issues, but I have the basic stuff down. 

[Vel'Cona]

It is my belief that you can put the word "war" in front of anything and make it cooler.  Example:

 

Warhammer

Warchief

Wartrukk

Warpretzel

Warmouse

 

OK.  Now I'm just putting "war" in front of things in the room.  But I think my point stands!

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Aren't warpretzels those things that come in MRE's? 

 

The Harakoni Warhawks are a really cool concept. Essentially the way they'd be awesome is if you took the Elysian Rules and the Militarum Tempestus list and cluged them together.

 

Like I've said, I'm working on some battlescribe catalogs to represent their rules on the tabletop. The whole thing kinda revolves around making stormtroopers troops. 

 

My first attempt was to take the normal C:AM and trim it down to just what I wanted. That's proving difficult, I'm going to try using the Elysians as a base and see what I get from that.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I've pretty much lifted the Stormtroopers from the elysian list (5e stormies), points cost and all. I'm thinking about tossing veterans in as a cheap option, and moving the heavy weapons squads to the heavy support section. I left the drop sentinels in, but I made them armored, and gave them standard sentinel weapons, so they are more useful, and they're not competing with all of the other FA selections. I'm trying to balance points costs, but it's pretty difficult. 

 

I like the war gear that Stormtroopers have, the HSLP, HSLG, CCW, frag & krak grenades, and the special operations rule. Scions are just dumbed down, missing the pistol and ccw and just getting MTC on top of their deep strike instead of SO. 

 

I'd like some input on this so I can make this list viable.

[*Furyou Miko]

Well, the Harakoni use Grav Gliders to move their heavier equipment into place - like the standard list of Guard heavy weapons...

 

Is there a reason you can't just take the regular Guard list, add Drop Sentinels and Carapace options, and then up the price of all your infantry by 5 points/squad (the price difference between Elysians and Guardsmen, at least with the last Guard codex) to buy Deep Strike?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

That's sort of the thing, They're all stormtroopers, and they're a drop regiment. So it's more like a combination of Elysians and C:MT. And with stormtroopers there's more to them than just throwing some carapace armor on everything, and paying 5 points more for deep strike. 

 

Like C:MT, they take stormtroopers as troops, but like the elysians they take valkyries as dedicated transports, and like elysians I would think they'd be able to come in first turn from reserves. 

 

I used the Elysians as a base because it made sense to use a Drop Regiment list as a starting place. I have some more references, Here's the article, and here's what it says about their combat doctrine, and here's their wargear. Their Las-carbine looks a lot like a hot-shot lasgun, and I think that's what it's supposed to be. 

 

I have veteran squads in the army list because they can bring things that stormtroopers can't, like heavy weapons, and more special weapons, and demolitions. I did adjust the points to be in line with the standard guard codex, so it's more fair, but I have to add 5 points to the vets for deep strike. I kept the vets the same, so they could be used for light infiltrators or heavy assault troops. I am going to give them back their standard lasguns though, since a whole army spewing AP3 shots would be nasty. 

 

I may make a platoon option for more bodies, but boosting their ballistic skill by one. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I've decided to make this a fluff/rules project thread, that will be used with my existing models, So I'm not always thinking about the same old force, and will give me some alternative methods of playing my guardsmen. Similar concepts though, this will be an entirely different build concept than my 2nd Special Service Force (which grew to include much more than just the Air Cav theme I had started with) this will be much more focused on the Air cav build, and give me a new fluff project to work on, and give me a slight break from painting models.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I posted my ideas on rules here, but doing this got me wondering if a Specific force org chart using the C:AM as a base wouldn't be a better idea.

 

The FOC would go like this:

Hidden Content

Harakoni Warhawks Strike Force

 

1 HQ mandatory, 2 optional (3 total)

2 Elites mandatory, 4 optional (6 total)

3 troops optional

4 Fast Attack optional

2 heavy support optional

 

Detachment special rules would be like this:

 

Air Assault: Valkyries may be purchased as dedicated transports for all infantry squads in this detachment, in addition no vehicles with the tank vehicle type may be taken as part of this detachment

 

Combat Drop: Half of all Valkyries and Vendettas, rounded up, may arrive first turn, in addition all infantry models in this detachment gain the Deep Strike USR.

 

Stormtrooper Kit: All Militarum Tempestus Scions (not Tempestors or Primes) get a hot-shot laspistol and close combat weapon added to their war gear.

 

 

I really like the old 5th ed stormies, with their stormtrooper kit (everyone getting pistols and CCW's). I think it makes them more useful, and I really think they did a disservice by eliminating that. It's also part of the Harakoni's fluff that they are issued pistols and CCW's. I'm considering adding a hot-shot lasgun to the tempestor's wargear, just for an extra 1-2 shots of AP3, and because the tempestor trades his stormtrooper kit for better close range weapons. 

 

I don't think this sounds too broken, but I'd like you to tell me what you think. It seems that formations and detachments are the new in thing, and this way I don't have to write a whole new "Codex". This essentially becomes a supplement to the C:AM. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Do y'all have any feed back on this? I want to know if it's broken, so I can fix it, and field it in friendly games.

[WarriorFish]

Broken is a relative term, but you'll need to give people time to read and digest something like this. Everyone is busy working on their ETL vows after all (right?) :P I'm assuming you're sticking with the existing codex units/points/etc at the moment except where mentioned?

 

I think it looks ok, you'll be stuck somewhat in how the list plays but, well you wouldn't be playing Warhawks if you didn't like that :P I think some further thought as to vehicle composition would be a good idea. Lacking all tanks you'll mostly be using aircraft to provide mobility and some of the heavier guns (DS melta isn't always viable) which is forcing both your and your opponent's hand.

 

For example, lots of flyers would be difficult to deal with (ignoring the expense!) which could result in a two tier game - those that have the tools obliterate you and those who don't are obliterated by you. That could get old fast, or create a weakness perceived or not for each side. I'm not sure what could be the best way could be, perhaps something to encourage more drop troops such as a re-roll on DS rolls in some form?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Basically I designed it to work with C:AM, and IA3.2 Elysians (and by extension my custom Warhawks list based on the Elysians) Ok, So maybe some form of the Grav Chute Commandos warlord trait (1d6 scatter), Or the old Special Operations Airborne Assault rule (reroll scatter). Maybe If I add Deep striking infantry to the combat drop rule. Even though It lacks tanks there are still some hard hitting land vehicles (tauroxes, taurox primes, sentinels). I still have field artillery and heavy weapons squads to bring the firepower. 

 

The flyer issue is true, but this list works the way I play IG fliers (I zoom them in so they get protection for their first turn, then I drop them to hover and use them as skimmers scooting them around while they shoot stuff, it keeps them on the board longer). 

 

My Custom Harakoni Warhawks list would mesh well with this, as there are no tanks, and it's set up to allow infiltrators to position themselves to facilitate no scattering. 

 

The custom list basically takes heavy weapons squads in a platoon (1-3 HWS and 0-1 PCS), and takes SWS as troops. Both have Veteran statlines, and SWS and Vet Squads can take doctrines, SWS are limited to 6 men, and I'm thinking of taking Vets down to 1 special weapon, for balance. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Slight revision, to my Harakoni Warhawks Supplementary rules for Codex: Astra Militarum.

Hidden Content

 

Vehicles with the tank type may not be included in this detachment.

 

Valkyries may be purchased as Dedicated Transports for infantry units using this supplement. 

 

When running from this supplement, all Militarum tempestus scions have the following rules:

 

Stormtrooper kit: Hot-shot Lasgun, Hot-Shot laspistol, Close Combat weapon, frag and krak grenades, Tempestors may exchange their Pistol and CCW as normal, and Scions may exchange their Hot-shot lasgun as normal.

 

Special Operations:

pick one doctrine:

      Airborne Assault: Reroll Scatter dice

      Hot Drop: Treat Valkyries as assault transports

 

All infantry models gain the Deep Strike USR, and the Drop Regiment rule.

 

Drop Regiment: When deploying from Deep Strike, either via Grav Chutes or from reserves, scatter 1d6 inches rather than 2. 

 

Detachment Benefits:

 

Combat Drop: Half of your Valkyries, Vendettas, and Deep Striking Infantry (rounded up) may enter from reserves on turn 1.

Reroll warlord trait, if so desired.

 

Warlord Traits:

 

1. Faith in command: Orders issued by the Warlord may use his leadership, Warlord may make 1 extra order per turn

2. Nuts! : The warlord and all units within 12" gain Preferred Enemy (everything) and Stubborn.

3. Lead the Way: Nominate d3 troops units before deployment, those units gain scout and Move through cover 

4. Come on you apes!: One use, Warlord and units within 6" gain Furious charge and relentless

5. Fire Dominance: Heavy and ordnance weapons that arrive via deep strike gain relentless for the turn they arrive.

6. Dawn Raiders: All units on the table at deployment gain +1 to their cover save first turn.

 

 

I think this is a bit more comprehensive, and probably a bit more balanced.

[RhysW]

Absolutely love Harakoni Warhawks, They're awesome and the idea of fielding an elite drop trooper army has me tempted to change from my current idea! Will you be using Elysian ?Grav Chutes on your models?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I'd love to, but no, since I have neither the money, time, or inclination to get them. Maybe I'll add them later, but right now it's mostly Kasrkin and Scions. And they all come with backpacks of their own. 

 

I see this as more an air assault unit than an airborne unit, more Apocalypse Now than Band of Brothers. I'll still have my fair share of deep striking "paratroopers" though.

[RhysW]

That's a really nice project though, i've always warmed to the old style Kasrkin models, it's a shame they've gone OOP now as I'd be basing an army round them myself! I wouldn't have any problems with your FOC, and would love to see it in action anyway! I would be happy to play against it, I don't think it's "Broken" at all, especially compared to some new formations and rules (3+ Re-Rollable Jink, followed by acting normally next turn on DA and that Drop Pod Formation Springs to mind! )

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I'd really like to see Kasrkin come back with a plastic model, just as an alternative to the Scions. I get why the Scions came out, to replace the old 5th ed metal stormies ( the not kasrkin ones), but those don't really look right standing next to cadians, as the models for the Kasrkin regiments, we need kasrkin models that look like up armored Cadians with hotshots. They should also get their own codex entry. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Would it be too much to give all sentinels scout and move through cover? That would make sentinels far more useful in this theme, since the majority of the infantry would have move through cover since they'd be scions. 

[WarriorFish]

Bit of a stretch for Armoured Sentinels, they'd need a points increase in some form.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Even though it's off setting the lack of tanks? To further off set the lack of tanks I left the FW artillery in the list, as well as some of the ground vehicles like the Centaur, and the cyclops demolition vehicles and tauroxes because those make sense for an airmobile force. Maybe I can lose the scouts rule, but move through cover would definitely be a benefit.

[WarriorFish]

No, because removing an option you may never have taken anyway isn't enough to warrant a change. Units should be considered on their own merits first, the moment you start improving things for no associated cost you make it easy for people to think you're creating an army list for an advantage.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I see what you mean. I made the decision last night  to get rid of that anyway, it was just something else that made things complicated. So by adding deep strike and the stormtrooper kit, should there be a points increase as well? Or is that offset by the ban on tanks? I want this to be fair. I used the Champions of Fenris as a guideline for what a supplement should be. A pistol and CCW don't seem to be that big a deal, even though they grant an extra CC attack. It's really there for fluff purposes. DS, MTC, and Carapace armor don't seem like enough to be 6PPM more than a veteran. This makes scions far more useful.

 

I wrote up a Full Drop Regiments supplement (covering Warhawks and Elysians, with two separate force org charts), so it's more than just Harakoni Warhawks. It has no fluff, but it's pretty much the rules section of a supplement book. The Elysian Chart is essentially the same set up as a CAD, only with the detachment benefits of the previous work I did. 

 

I'm thinking about adapting the C:MT Air Assault formation to this as well, making it so it's either a CCS in a valk accompanied by either 3 squads of stormies in valks (Harakoni) or 3 squads of Vets in Valks (Elysians).