how are you guys holding up in 7th?

[Full_ork]

I ask because I'm contemplating greyknights but I'm not sure.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Depends. Do you like Terminators? Do you like psychic powers? Do you have an aggressive style? Do you prefer melee or shooting? Or is just because we're still the best looking army in 40k bare none?

 

If you wanna get into GK, the following are mandatory purchases;

 

2-3x Terminator boxes (this gets you enough Termies to start with, plus some extra dudes for Librarians or Grand Masters to lead your force)

2x Dreadknight boxes (non-negotiable, Dreadknights are half the reason we still matter in 40k)

2x Strike boxes (the 10-man one, it's better value. You won't generally need more than 20x PA dudes in most lists)

1x Aegis Line (it lets you take Comms Array, which is incredibly important to us)

 

With that as your core, the following are all good choices that depend on your preferences;

2x Dreadknights (they just work...although they can get boring)

1-2x Ravens (depends on whether or not you're taking Purifiers largely)

 

One thing to take note of is that GK normally operate in Nemesis Strikeforce, as an Ally to other armies (NSF is basically an Ally detachment but with better bonuses). NSF grants Turn 1 Deepstrike Reserve rolls, and Run+Shoot after landing. CAD is only really used for spamming Dreadknights, or for Maelstrom (where Objective Secured is of arguably greater important than Turn 1 alpha-strikes). NSF supports our entire theme and focus, and it makes Terminators incredibly potent. 

 

Strong Allies are kinda needed these days. Pure lists just suffer too much from low model count and slowness. With that in mind, I'd be looking at Marines, in particular their Scout units. Teleport homers and locator beacons are fantastic when combined with Turn 1 Deepstrike, especially Infiltrated+Scouted into prime landing positions. 

[Bartali]

I ask because I'm contemplating greyknights but I'm not sure.

 

What are your concerns ? A lot depends on the meta of your area, and what kind of style of army you want to play

[Full_ork]

 

I ask because I'm contemplating greyknights but I'm not sure.

 

What are your concerns ? A lot depends on the meta of your area, and what kind of style of army you want to play

Mainly that the model count is to low to be compedative, and the loss of inquisition units took out their power. How do you guys hold up in the psychic phase?

[Aethernitas]

First of all - GKs beeing the best looking army in all of 40K is just your personal taste and opinion - nothing more and nothing less. Also none of those units you listed are in any way, shape or form "mandatory".

 

On the battlefield GKs can hold their own against any codex except when you get into competitive territory - there they get overwhelmed by the top tier codices like Eldar, Tau and arguable SM. Crons I think we can handle.

 

I would encourage you to base your decision mostly on things like the fluff, the aesthetic and the general feel of the army. Rules will change probably every 2-3 years from now on and there is never a guarantee that our codex turns out strong, but the miniatures themselves will stay the same for quite a while seeing as they age extremely well.

[Zhukov]

You should play them if you want to. If you have to ask how strong an army is, the answer is not relevant for you.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Mainly that the model count is to low to be compedative, and the loss of inquisition units took out their power. How do you guys hold up in the psychic phase? 

 

Low model count by itself isn't the issue. It's more a case of we do a couple of things quite well, but we have too many gaps in our toolbox to be competitive as a pure list. We run into serious issues if the enemy bring sufficient AP2. We also have almost no way to kill Flyers or FMC's, no ranged AP3/2 except on our vehicles (which we don't field many of). We're one of the best melee armies in the game, but getting into melee is difficult in 7th. 

 

Losing Inquisition has affected us, but we can Ally anyway, and we should be doing that these days. Allies add all the things we're missing, and bulk out our board presence. 

First of all - GKs beeing the best looking army in all of 40K is just your personal taste and opinion - nothing more and nothing less. 

 

Er yeah, it was tongue in cheek. I was asking if Full_Ork shared that opinion. 

Also none of those units you listed are in any way, shape or form "mandatory".

 

Explain to me how you build a viable Grey Knight list without either Terminators or Dreadknights. You need at least one of those units, if not both, to stand a chance against other armies. 

On the battlefield GKs can hold their own against any codex except when you get into competitive territory - there they get overwhelmed by the top tier codices like Eldar, Tau and arguable SM. Crons I think we can handle.

 

Necron Wraiths eat us alive. Necrons can out-attrition us quite well, it's only if we get into melee they have issues. They can still tarpit us very effectively though, especially with Decurion and Warrior blobs. They aren't very good at handling 2+ saves at range due to a lack of AP2, and even their AP3 is rare (although they spit out enough gauss to grind you down if you're in PA). It's more a case of you being unable to kill them, rather than them rapidly killing you off. 

I would encourage you to base your decision mostly on things like the fluff, the aesthetic and the general feel of the army. Rules will change probably every 2-3 years from now on and there is never a guarantee that our codex turns out strong, but the miniatures themselves will stay the same for quite a while seeing as they age extremely well.

 

Whilst those things are important, he didn't come here to ask those questions. 'How are you guys holding up in 7th' spoke directly to our competitiveness, or lack thereof. So, we should really be outlining the issues GK face in 7th, and how that'll factor into Full_Ork's decision. It's no fun buying up an army, painting it, and then watching it disintegrate on table because you got bad advice. 

[jeffersonian000]

I'm holding up quite well in 7th, thank you! This is, of course, because I have learn to stop fearing and come to love the Maelstrom. Jump, Shunt, Gate, DS, we have what it takes to be where we need to be when we need to be there. Every model has power weapons, every model has decent fire power, and every model contributes to the Psychic phase. If you ain't bouncing around the table stealing objectives, you ain't doing it right.

 

And to top it all off, we look fabulous doing it!

 

SJ

[TheMostGood]

I am loath to play my Eldar friend with my GK. I think I simply do not have the right models to play him and stand a chance. I have had a few games under my belt, and the basic feel I get is that it is a strong army, but an army that has weaknesses and takes hits harder if you're not as lucky.


Although. I must say most of my games have been pretty close. I played with my GK + Assassins against my friend with his IG + Imp Knight, and it was a blood bath. I got lucky dice rolls with my seize and some good swings with my DK against his Knight. But all in all the game ended with pretty much both of our armies decimated. I ended up winning by a single VP, but I was happy that it was a brawl rather than a one way fight (in either person's favor).


With that said, I feel the limitations the army presents. I picked them because they seemed really cool, and their units were pretty strong to match. The biggest draw was they are a complete opposite to the army I usually play (Tau). Complete opposites, so it gives me a chance to try something new.


Sadly, I have had a tough time weaving together a Tau / GK army list with what I have. Still working on that drawing board, although the Farsight Talisman and GK WC generators do seem like a powerful combo to protect myself against a psyker heavy army. Something I might have to do against my friend's DA now that they have a lot of witchfire abilities.


Oh yes. I will craft a list.

[Zhukov]

Necron Wraiths eat us alive. Necrons can out-attrition us quite well, it's only if we get into melee they have issues. They can still tarpit us very effectively though, especially with Decurion and Warrior blobs. They aren't very good at handling 2+ saves at range due to a lack of AP2, and even their AP3 is rare (although they spit out enough gauss to grind you down if you're in PA). It's more a case of you being unable to kill them, rather than them rapidly killing you off.

Is this theory or are you getting beaten by Necrons? I have the idea it's theory. According to my theory we are doing okay against Necrons. We are generally faster and are almost as durable because they can have issues denying our defensive (2+ saves) while we can deny theirs in many cases (we can deny their armour saves, multiple wounds and downgrade their Reanimation Protocols. Force Weapons basicly, they do not like them.). According to my games against them, I am right and it's a fair matchup.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

First of all - GKs beeing the best looking army in all of 40K is just your personal taste and opinion - nothing more and nothing less. 

 

The pewter GKT are some of the best minis GW have ever made.

 

The pewter PAGK, not so much.  Unless you're a fan of the Riverdance.

 

Just look at the detail, pose and precision of the old GKT.  Stunning.

 

Our new plastics really show just how far GW can push plastic technology.  Conversly our PAGK stand out when compared to our old Pewters.

 

No 'bow legged I need to pee' stances.

 

Really, what other minis actually compare to the detail and precision of the GK infantry range?  Cetainly not Tau! :P

[Zhukov]

 

Really, what other minis actually compare to the detail and precision of the GK infantry range?  Cetainly not Tau! 

Dark Eldar in my opinion :) Their overall range is really nice, from the standard DE Infantry and Jetbikes to the Voidraven Bomber and the Ravager.

[Gentlemanloser]

Filthy Xenos Scum! :P

 

Maybe I should have said what Imperial minis. ;)

[Aethernitas]

First of all - GKs beeing the best looking army in all of 40K is just your personal taste and opinion - nothing more and nothing less. 

 

Er yeah, it was tongue in cheek. I was asking if Full_Ork shared that opinion. 

Also none of those units you listed are in any way, shape or form "mandatory".

 

Explain to me how you build a viable Grey Knight list without either Terminators or Dreadknights. You need at least one of those units, if not both, to stand a chance against other armies.

 

The tongue in cheek seems to have gone over my head.

 

Concerning the mandatory units - I agree with Zhukov that Full_ork probably plays in a far less competitive meta asking the questions he asks. For him I daresay pretty much all units are viable. If we enter competitive territory I absolutely agree with your statement even if I abhore 3+ DKs and I would take more TAGK instead of PAGK and a Inquisitor with servos skulls instead of the aegis.

[Emicus]

Currently 3:0 in FLGS league where everyone is bringing their A-game. Feel GK is 70% NDKs.

[jeffersonian000]

I feel that in 7th every non-GK unit in your GK army takes away from your overall success. Except for Knight Titans.

 

SJ

[Aethernitas]

I don't see how a 42 points model with servoskulls as power multiplier or a 120 points model with the same servoskulls, an additional psycannon and prescience for whatever unit it needs would take away from our success.

 

I can totally understand if you don't like it because you want to play "pure" (even though "pure" jsut one codex ago would have included Inquisitors anyway) but ruleswise it's hard to justify that this makes the army worse - on the contrary as I would argue it makes the army much more reliable.

[thraxdown]

Grey Knights are the best looking army bar none. It's not a "matter of opinion." Everything else in the game is up for debate, except this. If you feel any other model range looks better, you are wrong

I've been doing decent with the new Grey Knight book. Necrons have trouble killing us, but with our limited firepower we struggle killing them as well. I've done pretty good against Tau, have had no success against Eldar and mixed results against Space Marines. So on the power scale I'd say mid-to mid-high. On the fun scale though we're right there at the top. This army is a blast to play. The nemesis strike force is excellent. We're balanced in each phase, so there's no boring half hour shooting phase, and the power weapons help you out of the "never ending assault," and our psychic phase is effective so you'll avoid the frustration of only have enough dice for one or two powers. The only real downside to the book is you'll find your lists end up looking a lot of the same, termies, librarian and dreadknights. GW could have done a better job with the internal balance. As it is dreadknights are too cheap, paladins and dreadnoughts too much. Regardless, Grey Knights get an "A" in the fun department, and are the undeafeated, undisputed heavyweight champs in the looks department.

[BetterOffShred]

Yeah I have to agree that while looks are purely subjective, the GK model line have detail and options galore on every sprue.  I was blown away when I opened the first 5 man Terminator box.. I seriously thought they Eff'ed up and put two kits in the box.  And then on top of this, each piece is bristling with detail that requires a pretty hefty skill at painting to do well. 

 

The other points are quite valid too.  The appeal for me was small model count so I could build a pretty large army (points wise) for very low dollar count which is a relief after all the cash I've shelled out on Orks and Tyranids for like 1500 point lists..    Some of the units are pretty worthless in the current book, but I've never built armies based off of a single build from a single book.  I have 15 possessed, and 2 Defilers... Blue scribes.. I even bought a Tzeentch chariot model when it first came out because it just looked so damned cool. 

 

As far as competitive.. Yeah the meta varies greatly from place to place, around here the GK never seem to do very well.  That being said the lists I see people building are not really competition oriented, and one didn't even have any NDK's.   As primarily a Daemons/CSM player (in the last two editions) Not including a NDK is like swearing off Kairos or Daemon princes...  They are just such a huge part of the army in both fluff and in the actual number crunched crucible of battle. The army is supposed to be low model count, the baddest ass MF's that the imperium of man can muster, and that's why you get 23 models in a 1500 point game.    I personally love it.

 

-Brett

[Bartali]

First of all - GKs beeing the best looking army in all of 40K is just your personal taste and opinion - nothing more and nothing less.

The pewter GKT are some of the best minis GW have ever made.

The pewter PAGK, not so much. Unless you're a fan of the Riverdance.

Just look at the detail, pose and precision of the old GKT. Stunning.

Our new plastics really show just how far GW can push plastic technology. Conversly our PAGK stand out when compared to our old Pewters.

No 'bow legged I need to pee' stances.

Really, what other minis actually compare to the detail and precision of the GK infantry range? Cetainly not Tau!

I really like the marine releases from around 5th ed. SW PA and TDA kits, BA DC, SG and Furioso kits, and the GK PA,TDA and Dreadknight.

GW seemed to have put a bit more effort (and money) in to them compared to the current copy/paste CAD marine kit releases

[Gentlemanloser]

I used to make my own plastic PAGK back in the day with the BT upgrade sprue. :)

 

They were ok, but our new boxes are head and sholders above any kit bash I could make!

 

(But then I've very limited skillz in that department anyway! :P)

[Prot]

All of our experiences are 'coloured' by our meta, and our own habits.

 

Everyone things of Orks as horrible, but I still find they are a royal pain for my GK. In fact my last, and only loss stretching back a good... 5-6 games is against Orks. Why? Because they do things well that we don't in some areas of the game.

 

Bad matchups with Orks are very easy to come by. They are fast, and have a lot of just... junk to throw at you. I still despise that Ork/Nob/Warboss/Lucky stikk/FnP squad. It's certainly killable with Grey Knights, but I think their secret is just that they are unorthodox compared to common Deathstar Tournie lists.

 

GK vs Necrons will be a never ending debate here I see. But I play both, and being 100% honest, aside from Eldar, GK are a front runner in ruining their day. Our access to Force + Psychic Phase which they are nearly completely and utterly at our mercy during that entire phase of the game.

 

As a side note, I am using Wraiths less and less. I don't roll 6's enough. Sure, I can perhaps tie up an NDK for 320 turns in a row, but I never kill them either. (he has to get REALLY unlucky not to force strike one down every other phase too.)

 

I was so confused by the perceived power of the Wraith in the forums, I actually set up a test after I came to question just what 1) I'm doing wrong or 2) why the Wraiths are failing....

 

I actually did this test, and I'm not proud to admit it... I took my NDK, and faced off for about 6 full combats. In 3 I gave the charge to each side. There was only one common outcome: the combats typically went on forever with no really clear victor on either side. The outside factor? During this testing I assumed my opponent was too ignorant to kill the Tomb Spyder which is the central component in RPing the squad.

 

Anyway, I actually realize I lied about something... my last loss was an experiment I tried against Eldar. The "D" got me. I found a few games against the Eldar have been very ugly for me. The new Wraithknight is a  bad matchup with getting fed wounds back.... and again, more D.

 

Otherwise, I'm doing really well in 7th so far. But I have to stretch out a bit more. My lists are getting too repetitive which goes against my philosophy of trying just about everything.

 

I would like to revisit some 'stranger' builds I was doing.

[Gentlemanloser]

Back in the day we had a mock up with orks versus marines, for a bit of a change and for some lulz, with a bunch of the box set orks. 

 

Just after the Thunderfire came out.

 

One Thunderfire took out nearly the entire ork army by itself.

 

No one has touched the green meanies since!

[Full_ork]

Interest stuff.

 

Basicly to respond to you guys.

 

I'm mostly a casual player, but the local club has become more compedative. Which is ok, but even though I love how the greyknight models look, I don't want to invest in an army that struggles to win. So that's why I made this thread to get an idea of where you guys stand.

[Emicus]

Winning depends on many things. His list, your list, the mission, skill level. "Can't win" is hard to pin down :) I win and lose, but its certainly not all lose! And I make a lot of mistakes too, but so do my oponents.