Astorath vs Lemartes

[dakkamasta]

I have been analysing the usefulness of both Astorath and Lemartes with my DC since the codex came out and I'm slowly starting to not love Astorath as much as I used to when compared to Lemartes. I would love to get outside opinions about what other BA players think. Here's why I'm starting to prefer Lemartes:

 

Firstly, Astorath is a HQ and Lemartes is an elite. For players maxing out their elite slots i can see why Lemartes is a no go, but I find myself taking between 2-3 elit slots and rarely use the 4th. I do however almost always find myself wanting another HQ slot available, which by taking Lemartes would free one slot up.

 

Second, as much as rerolls to hit and wound are great, when looking further into it I've realised it's not as much a boost over reroll hits only. DC are already close combat beasts on their own, with rerolls to both they will almost always overkill their target leaving them exposed to shooting. Also against vehicles (which i find my DC attacking a lot due to their fists) the rerolls to wound are useless. Furthermore Lemartes has got a much better chance at damaging vehicles due to having more attacks at a higher strength and also his mighty initiative 6 (7 on charge with BSF).

 

Thirdly, Lemartes is better for the DC when fighting other strong close combat units, due to being able to strike with many high strength and initiative attacks that are also concussive, which against certain HQs or MCs can then allow the DC unit to attack and finish them off before taking casualties. Astorath on the other hand with his unwieldy weapon, has to decline all challenges against enemies with AP 2 weapons and also does not contribute to the combat until the enemy has already attacked, resulting in more of your DC dying. Yes Asorath strikes at AP 2 and Lemartes does not, but why are you taking DC without any powerfists?

 

Lastly of course is the price difference, with Lemartes being significantly cheaper, while still having good close combat ability and can hinder certain units that DC alone cannot do as well. 

 

So there's my little analysis of the two. What do you guys think? Would you prefer Astorath or Lemartes?

 

P.S. I also love think Lemartes has some of the coolest fluff in the codex, which is always a bonus.

[Fahlnor]

Lemartes fluff is amazing. Definitely cooler than Astorath. Also much prefer the Lemartes model.

 

If I was taking one or the other, I'd pretty much always take Lemartes, just for those two reasons.

[Jolemai]

To add, Astorath counts as a Keeper of Relics (for those interested in spamming Relic of the Armoury Forgeworld toys), whilst Lemartes has Concussive (which can be huge).

 

Anyway, I do quite like Lemartes but I haven't used him for a while as I can spare the points for a HQ but not for Lemartes...

[tjr]

Doesn't concussive only affect subsequent rounds of combat? 

[Jolemai]

 

 

A model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon with this special rule
is reduced to Initiative 1 until the end of the following Assault phase.

 

Lemartes with his INT 6 base has the potential to be extremely useful with Concussive.

[tjr]

A model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon with this special rule

is reduced to Initiative 1 until the end of the following Assault phase.

Lemartes with his INT 6 base has the potential to be extremely useful with Concussive.

Thanks. Better get him painted up then

[Silverson]

I came on here expecting to see peoples replying with Astorath every time but upon reading your analysis I believe I have over looked Lemartes.

 

But the way I see it is that Astorath fills the mandatory hq slot which in smaller games (1250 and under) helps a lot. also the majority of things that would challenge and instant kill Astorath before he gets to swing are the units that I would need the re-rolls to wound on (twc,th/ss terminators, dreadknights etc...) where as the units that would generally kill him at the same inititave that are a lot cheaper(ork nobs) the death company mow through anyway so refusing actually helps a little little bit. 

 

I will admit I very well could be wrong on this as you have sold me a good argument that I will have to investigate further and try out Lemartes.

 

Thanks 

[Dempsey]

Also if you buff Lemartes with librarian... oh boy - up to initiative 10, and as many attacks on charge could potentialy reduce bloodthirster to I1 just for death company to finish him before he even swings ;-)

[Remtek]

The 2+ save and extra wound makes Astorath better for tanking, but i agree Lemartes is way cooler.. :)

[GrunTeufel]

Lemartes is a seperate elite choice. Yeah... I love the model, fluff and his rules. Can not stand the fact that I have to spend a whole elite slot for one character. If you include Dante, you still have to take a HQ choice just to make your list legal. I really have hard time understanding the design team sometimes.

[Red-beard]

Lemartes is the cooler option. However, I think the 2+ save and extra wound makes Astorath the more competitive choice.

[dakkamasta]

In terms of resilience though is Astorath really that much better? Comparing the two, Astorath as got 3 wounds with a 2+/4++, while Lemartes has 2 wounds with a 3+/4++ and FnP. Neither of these stat lines I would consider good for tanking wounds, after all these are both T 4 models which as we know are vulnerable to instant death by a plethora of weapons across all codices. I for one have rarely ever used either model to tank wounds off the DC unless it is only Astorath/Lemartes and the 2 power fists left, in which case i would sometimes rather keep the fists alive, and even in those situations it usuallly was AP 2 shots coming their way so the armour was useless. I find I am always putting these characters towards the back of the squad since I don't like to risk losing their buffs, hence the resilience of the models won't come in to play as often as you might think. Furthermore I'll repeat the point I made above about the advantage of initiative 6 over initiative 1. Lemartes can possibly kill an enemy before it even strikes, whereas Astorath has no chance of doing that.

[Remtek]

I always put Astorath in front. With look out sir and 4+ invul i feel pretty safe from str8. It also really helps vs ap3 in both shooting and close combat. You will probably do more dmg with Astrorath declining a challenge due to the re-roll wound compared to fighting at I6 with Lemmy except for certain matchups.

That being said neither of them are really competitve compared to our other IC's so i'd lean towards whatever seems like the most fun. 

 

Another way to look at it is you can take 5 extra DC and a power weapon instead of Lemartes. Thats 3 more wounds and 20 more attacks on the charge even without Zealot you are still getting more hits. 

[Brother Raul]

     Hang on did some folk think Lemartes's fluff is better than Astorath? Sure its good but better? Than the guy Dante listens too? Than the guy whos job it is to single handedly guard against the Black rage for the WHOLE chapter and most successors? The one guy who if he got the Black rage would doom the whole chapter? Lemmy is great but just a Chaplain who is very slowly being lost to the Black rage. Astorath is the only Blood Angel we absolutely cannot afford to loose to the Black rage.

 

   Now as to on the tabletop I tend to agree that Astorath is overkill for DC but does tank well. Lemmys concussive and I6 cannot be underestimated as it stands and the price difference will bag you a couple more DC. While back I made a post to understand this exact same issue as have never actually played with Astorath but couldn't see many occasions where he'd be better than Lemmy when on paper Astorath's 2+, 3W, re-roll to hits/ wound and ID seem much better.

[Jolemai]

It's quite possible people are taking into account Lemartes' earlier fluff. Fluff from a time when he hadn't completely fallen to the Black Rage and was their for Tycho during his time of need.

[Brother Raul]

Yet Astorath was there for Lemmy in his hour of need, and every other blood angel too :) Its a battle of super cool versus uber cool!

[Chaplain Admetus]

 

A model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon with this special rule

is reduced to Initiative 1 until the end of the following Assault phase.

 

Lemartes with his INT 6 base has the potential to be extremely useful with Concussive.

 

Slightly derp question, but does that mean if you've got Lemmy in a unit of I4 models (say, Assault Marines) and smack an I5 character with the Crozius, he drops to I1 and gets dogpiled by the ASM? I always thought it didn't take effect until the following assault phase, but that might be me misremembering the rules...

[Jolemai]

Correct, said INT 5 Character is now striking at INT 1 provided he survives.

 

Nice to see you back online. Last I heard you were getting to grips with the DE Codex when it came out...

[Indefragable]

Funny how many of us are sort of "waking up" to Lemartes.

 

When I first started some months ago every review I read talked about how overpriced Lemartes was and how useless he had become.

 

I just thought he was such an angry mofo that I used him now and then anyways. I have slowly been using him and more, however, for the reasons listed in this thread: high Initiative, and master-Crafted Concussive. Not to mention Zealot for the attached DC.

 

The way I have come to determine who to bring, Astorath or Lemmy, comes down to what I am facing and how many HQ slots I have used/need to use. I only ever use Astorath in DC units of 10+ specifically for that overkill. If 8ish DC and Astorath get the Charge off, whatever they hit WILL die (including Iron Hands Chapter Master Smashf----r).

 

Lemmy on the other hand often flies under the radar and can actually do well attached to DC groups of 5 or so. It's not the most points-efficient but Lemartes and Raphen's DC can make a useful unit that counts as Troops AND does work.