2500pts Emperors Children, with/without Primarch

[MorgothNL]

Hi all,

I've been tweaking my EC list for quite a while. Haven't had time lately to play games, but I did have some time to look at my lists.

Since I will be able to play about 3 games in the week after the next, I would like to get some input on my list, to avoid using this 'opportunity' by playing a list that isn't going to work well or, like has happend before to me, is incorrect and illegal

So, firstly I have a list containing the Primarch Fulgrim, but I also have a list with Eidolon (since we've all seen the model that is coming up and I'm definitely getting it).

2000pts with Fulgrim:

Pride of the Legion ROW

HQ:

Chaplain Centurion (Artificer armour, refractor field, Sonic Shrieker, Melta Bombs) - 115

TROOPS:

5x Veteran Tactical squad (Meltabombs, Tank Hunters USR) - 150

10x Tactical squad (Sergeant Melta Bombs, Vexilla) - 165

1x Rhino - 35

10x Veteran Tactical squad (Vexilla, 2x Missile Launcher + Flakk, Sniper USR) - 280

1x Rhino - 35

5x Phoenix Terminators - 265

ELITES:

Contemptor Dread (Kheres , Extra Armour) - 200

Contemptor Mortis (2x Kheres) - 180

FAST ATTACK:

Anvillus Dreadclaw Droppod (for the 5 Veterans) - 100

2x Legion Javelin Attack Speeders (both 2x Hunter Killer Missile) - 170

Storm Eagle (Lascannons) - 250

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Sicaran Battle Tank (Lascannon Sponsons) - 175

LOW:

Fulgrim (Fireblade) - 380

- Anvillus will take the 5 Tank Hunter veterans to come in first turn, and hopefully, destroy the hardest armour, or biggest threat to Fulgrim on turn 2 when he will arrive himself.

- Fulgrim will be with the Chaplain and the Phoenix Guard in the Storm eagle. I left the Phoenix guard without sonic shriekers, cause the Chaplain has one (and rules as still written, it says only 1 model needs one for the whole unit to benefit.. sorry but EC have it tough enough and FW has had multiple chances in new books to fix this if they intended it otherwise). Fulgrim will also get +1I which is great with his extra attack special rule. Besides, the Phoenix Guard will have +1I if they assaulted anyways, so they don't need shriekers that bad).

- Contemptor dread will move up quickly, to force the opponent where I want him, or to draw fire away from my other stuff.

- All shooty stuff will take perfect positions ASAP, even if it means moving fast first turn.

- Speeders will outflank via USR or just by moving, this will depend on the opponent and his army

List without Fulgrim, this one has me concerned a bit more, cause the palatines seem so squishy and yet very expensive:

Pride of the Legion ROW

HQ:

Eidolon (Jump Pack) - 205

Chaplain Centurion (Jump Pack, Refrator Field, Artificer Armour, Phoenix Spear, Sonic Shrieker, Melta Bombs, Phoenix Spear) -155

TROOPS:

5x Veteran Squad (Melta Bombs) - 150

10x Veteran Squad (Vexilla, 2x Missile Launcher, Sniper USR, Rhino) - 295

8x Veteran Squad (Vexilla, Melta Bombs, Artificer Armour, Phoenix Spear, 2x Power Weapon, Furious Charge USR) - 250

ELITES:

Contemptor Mortis (2x Kheres) - 180

Contemptor Mortis (2x Kheres) - 180

10x Palatines (3x Phoenix Spear, Jump Packs, Melta Bomb) - 370

FAST ATTACK:

Anvillus Dreadclaw - 100

2x Legion Javelin Speeder (Both 2x HKM) - 170

Storm Eagle (Lascannons) - 250

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Sicaran Battle Tank (Armoured Ceramite, Lascannons) - 195

- Chaplain and Eidolon join the Palatines. Palatines don't have shriekers because both character have one. I'm afraid of this unit taking a lot of fire and those 3+ armours are bleh on 37pts models. Chaplain is there to make sure that the survivors will still have enough punch when they arrive. Besides, from my experience, most wounds in the units that I choose to have an apothecary, take wounds where FNP isn't allowed.

- 5 Melta Bomb Veterans will be in Anvillus to take out biggest or scariest armour.

- 8 Veterans will be in the Storm Eagle, either to bring their melta bombs to any big threat still alive, to draw fire away from Eidolons squad, or to support them in assault.

So let me know what you think. I think the Fulgrim list will work quite well, I've played similar lists (that didn't include the speeders, and had a medicae instead of chaplain, but I think this list will work well and will be fun)

The Eidolon list is the one I'm worried about, because of the points in Eidolons squad and the squisyness of it. I normally manage to control the board quite well, so I hope I can do that with this list as well, thereby making sure Eidolons squad will arrive when and where I want, with enough punch left to assure victory once they strike. Alternatives of this list swap the Palatines for Command squad (2+ armour) and/or swap the CC veterans for shooty ones. But depending on opinions, I'd try out this one first.

[WolfOfHorus]

Both lists seem very light on AT for 2000 points, Mainly because of Fulgrim. That said the first list is decent. My only is Veterans in the Dreadclaw, 5 with melta bombs is very expensive for the points, consider dropping a Contemptor for a full squad.

 

The second list on the other hand, just put Eidolon/Palatine Blades in a Dreadclaw, the jump packs are nice, but you want them charging at full strength.

 

As for as rules, I thinks its fair for the Shriekers to give entire unit +1 int.

 

Oh yeah, on a minor note, Phoenix Guard are not troops.

[Slips]

Oh yeah, on a minor note, Phoenix Guard are not troops.

Under Pride of the Legion, they are/can be.

[WolfOfHorus]

 

Oh yeah, on a minor note, Phoenix Guard are not troops.

Under Pride of the Legion, they are/can be.

 

Since when?

[Slips]

 

 

Oh yeah, on a minor note, Phoenix Guard are not troops.

Under Pride of the Legion, they are/can be.

 

Since when?

 

Always. Legion Terminators that take up an Elites Slot can be troops under Pride of the Legion. They Specify as much in LA:CAL or an FAQ.

 

Phoenix Guard are an Elites Choice normally thus become eligible. DG Grave Wardens, who are Heavy Support, Cannot.

[WolfOfHorus]

Looking at Book 1 atm, very liberal interpretation of that.

[Slips]

Looking at Book 1 atm, very liberal interpretation of that.

LA:CAL supersedes Betrayal 100% of the time.

[Theredknight]

Yes, they ret conned a lot of betrayal, it was a good test base, but most people go off the lacal and istvaan books, youl find a few treats in there for ec if Youv been using betrayal!

[MorgothNL]

Both lists seem very light on AT for 2000 points, Mainly because of Fulgrim. That said the first list is decent. My only is Veterans in the Dreadclaw, 5 with melta bombs is very expensive for the points, consider dropping a Contemptor for a full squad.

The second list on the other hand, just put Eidolon/Palatine Blades in a Dreadclaw, the jump packs are nice, but you want them charging at full strength.

As for as rules, I thinks its fair for the Shriekers to give entire unit +1 int.

Oh yeah, on a minor note, Phoenix Guard are not troops.

Thank you for the reply.

 

As mentioned by others, LA:CAL specifically adds "this includes any legion specific terminators ".

 

The 5 veterans with meltaBombs in dreadclaw are actually my go-to anti tank choice in my EC lists. The total with transport comes at 250pts, and it has proven about 90% effective. The are beast at killing anything sicaran to Spartans and even fellblades. The are key in my list at the moment, for they ensure I can open up those tricky Spartans or kill anything that threatens my army.

My brother already has 2 lightning strike fighters, and I don't want to have to much of the same things. So..Not kraken missiles at my disposal, this unit is the next best (imho the better) choice. 5 seems light, but with tank hunter, even 2 or 3 surviving gives a high chances of success.

 

I'm gonna go ahead and see what I can do to give the palatine and eidolon a dreadclaw (points are there when I remove jump packs, but my fast slots are full as is).

 

Edit: pff, that's tough, I can't drop the Storm Eagle for I have the model, and I was quite keen on the Javelins (don't have those yet ). I can drop the 5 melta bomb veterans, but the palatines can't pick it the anti armour role and I have no idea what reliable anti av14 thing to get for those points. And like I said, they work incredibly well for the points.

[WolfOfHorus]

Graviton cannons come to mind. The meltabombs are great, but if you take return fire your 250 point goes down the toilet, investing another 75 points is a good idea.

 

As for the fast attack situation, up to you.

[Caustic63]

I have a few thoughts regarding both these lists:

 

In the first one 2000pts might be a bit low to include a Primarch since you are depriving yourself of other important tools to pay for him. Since it's Fulgrim though its not that bad of a decision given his cheaper cost. May I ask what Warlord trait you plan to run with him? For this list I'd recommend Master of Ambush you help you better get into 'perfect' positions (see what I did there?). On your Chaplain, which Power Weapon type have you chosen? Personally I would give him a Spear and a Power Axe.

 

I don't understand why you've chosen to take a Tactical Squad in a Rhino when you are running Pride of the Legion AND you've already filled your mandatory slots. Veterans are more ideal in a mechanised list because:

 

- They can take Special Weapons and Assault-Heavy Weapons, and the two models with them can top hatch fire from the Rhino

- Veterans can improve their shooting via Tank Hunters/Sniper or alter their deployment via Outflank (so your Rhino doesn't immediately get iced first turn and give up First Blood)

- Apart from the sergeant's Combi-Weapon, Tactical Squads can take no specials or heavy weapons so hatch fire is next to useless

- Tactical Squads have Fury of the Legion, which is entirely useless if they are in a Rhino

- Tactical Squads start at 10 and grow to 20. At 10 models, your Tacticals are paying the maximum price per model - meanwhile the Veterans are a full squad and pay the least price per model

 

Not to mention the possibility of taking Legion Terminators, Heavy Support Culverins (using Kakophoni models) or Tactical Support squads instead to fill in your gaps.

 

You should put the Grenade Harness of the Phoenix Terminators, since the Storm Eagle doesn't give them grenades like a Spartan does.

 

An interesting option would be to put Fulgrim in the Dreadclaw with your Veterans, since he then gets a T2 charge instead of a T3 charge. The more rounds of combat he makes it into, the better.

 

 

For the second list, does your Chaplain have two Phoenix Power Spears? This is probably a typo, but its worth considering what type you want his free Power Weapon to be. A Power Axe seems like it would make the most sense.

 

In regards to your close combat Veterans, I feel like they aren't necessarily bad but are sub-optimal when you put them beside Palatine Blades. Since you already have a unit of Palatine Blades, perhaps you should make them Legion Terminators instead? You have plenty of space in the Storm Eagle, and you can create some really amazing looking Terminators and Palatines by simply converting Phoenix Terms into normal ones and using the spears for characters and Palatines.

 

This next piece of advise is a bit more advanced, but it comes from experience using the units:

 

As a general rule Palatine Blades function best when they are accompanied by a Primus Medicae or Fulgrim. A Chaplain is nice for the Fearless and rerolls, but since resiliance is an issue for them a Medicae makes the most sense since he also can be equipped with a Spear. They work well with Fulgrim because they can accept challenges on his behalf, benefit from his Fearless, and can be taken in small enough squad sizes to allow him to fit into more compact transports like Dreadclaws, Rhinos, and Land Raiders.

 

Phoenix Terminators, on the other hand, work best with Eidolon or a Chaplain. Eidolon because he gives them AP2 to fall back on after combat round 1 (they also give him stubborn), and a Chaplain because the reroll to hit is almost essential for them to do enough damage to justify their cost.

[Theredknight]

Would you consider a forge Lord in the phoenix Termies caustic? Rad grenades knocking the str down by one would help the weakness of the ynit a bit? And chaplain would make them useable, apart from the points obviously!!

[Theredknight]

Would you consider a forge Lord in the phoenix Termies caustic? Rad grenades knocking the str down by one would help the weakness of the ynit a bit? And chaplain would make them useable, apart from the points obviously!!

[Slips]

Would you consider a forge Lord in the phoenix Termies caustic? Rad grenades knocking the str down by one would help the weakness of the ynit a bit? And chaplain would make them useable, apart from the points obviously!!

I'd consider it since you can give a Forge Lord a Graviton Gun with his servo harness giving you another form of Relentless Graviton. Not the best but, hey.

 

He also has his servo harness attack for an extra S8 Hit at I1 meaning you can give him a Phoenix Spear to hit hard first then whomp them at I1 afterwards. Rad Grenades are a boost too. And, he can attempt to repair the Ride their in if it takes damage.

[WolfOfHorus]

500 points for Primus Medicae and Palatine Blades with Spears? :cussing too expensive, yes same with Chaplain! Sure, it will delete out a unit (albeit cheaper unit), what then? Your ass is out in the open and your going to get another round shooting hitting you. Points for points, they will struggle, i'd rather have 2 10 units with 5 power swords each instead of a fully decked out unit with a Primus.

 

Deathstars look good on paper, but unless you have durability like a 2+ or 3+ invul, they will not make theyre points back.

 

Boyz over toyz.

[Caustic63]

Would you consider a forge Lord in the phoenix Termies caustic? Rad grenades knocking the str down by one would help the weakness of the ynit a bit? And chaplain would make them useable, apart from the points obviously!!

 

Adding characters to units is expensive and reduces model count, so I only do it when I view it to be necessary for a unit to be effective.  In the case of Phoenix Terminators I see a Chaplain as necessary because of their average WS and how important that first round of combat is to them. Getting a poor round of hit rolling on the charge is a death sentence for these guys unless they have a powerful character like Eidolon or Fulgrim to keep them going. On a similar note, I see a Primus Medicae as almost necessary for a Palatine Blades squad because of how fragile and close to the enemy they are.

 

A Forge Lord is nice to have, but from an unit synergy point of view wounding is not the biggest problem Phoenix Terminators have to overcome. It's not a bad combo, but I'd prefer to focus on the bigger weakness to get a better payoff. The perks of Graviton Gun access and Repair are neat, but they sort of distract from the primary goal of the unit which is to charge and eviscerate MEQ and TEQ squads caught in the open before they can hit back.

 

Plus from a fluff point of view Rad Grenades make the most sense in a Death Guard Reaping army. A unit of Deathshrouds with a Chaplain+Rad Grenades is exceptionally lethal.

[Theredknight]

I know exactly what you mean, I was thinking of the same way myself. They need to win the first round and run them down, otherwise a protracted fight they will lose a lot of monentum.

 

A chappy gives you ts re rolls, and the enemies reduced strength means you will be wounding on 2s rather than 3s with rad, we could say ours was an alien pheromone like the laer musk!

 

They do need a character to go with them like eidolon or fulgrim as well, otherwise they are rather sucky.

[MorgothNL]

Thank you all for the replies, they are very usefull!

 

I've played 2 games the other day, one with and one without Fulgrim.

The lists were both a bit different from the ones I posted, and I hadn't seen the replies yet so I didn't use any of the advice.

 

My first game was with fulgrim:

Fulgrim

5 phoenix guard

Chaplain

Storm Eagle

 

10 veterans (sniper, 2x missile launcher)

Rhino

 

10 tacticals

Rhino

 

6 jetbikes (melta bombs, 2x plasma )

 

Sicaran battle tank (lascannons)

 

Vindicator (laser destroyers )

 

Mortis Contempor (kheres )

Mortis contempor (lascannons )

 

This game went quite crap, I was lacking anti tank (had a tough time dealing with av14 till I got the jetbikes against it. Fulgrim didn't kill ANYTHING, my opponent passed 17 3+ invul saves (7 wounds would have been instant death). All phoenix guard and the chaplain got killed in the first round. Fulgrim lasted the game but completely wiffed. I thought I had melta bombs on the veterans, but I didn't.

 

I won the game cause the jetbikes beat 2 whole units with their plasma and and spartan with the melta bombs. And though fulgrim wiffed, it kept his best unit occupied at least.

 

 

The second game with Eidolon:

Eidolon

10 palatine (3 spears)

Chaplain

Storm Eagle

 

8 veterans (melta bombs)

Dreadclaw

 

10 veterans (missile launchers, melta bombs)

Rhino

 

6 jetbikes (melta bombs, 2x plasma )

 

Sicaran battle tank (lascannons)

 

Vindicator (laser destroyers)

 

2 contempor mortis (kheres)

 

 

I lost this one due to a huge mistake, I brought the Storm Eagle very close to my opponents proteus with 10 pyroclast. I expected to get the last hull point off with my vindicator or Eagle, but that failed. Next turn he shot the Eagle (hover mode cause I've lost the whole payload too many times before by zooming it and crashing). Eidolon and the whole unit has to land 5" from his pyroclast. The palatines are not resilient enough to withstand 54 wounds of the flamers. But not many things are. Though I still hate the 3+ save, cause even if I did get to charge, wall of death would have easily killed a few.

 

 

 

Now that the Eidolon model is on pre order and is rocking a jump pack, I think I'm going to run him like that. In command squad or palatine squad would seem the only choices. Though I am now looking at running him with phoenix guard as suggested. Not sure where to put him best. Eidolon with any JP unit just seems cannon fodder :(.

 

The vindicator worked quite well, but I didn't like the stationary aspect of it in my list. I wish EC could have more fast attack slots, or had any foc adjustment possibilities at all (palatines as troops in any way for example). I won't bash about the rules again.. Loving the Eidolon model too much to regret playing EC.

 

 

I'm going to start working on both lists again. Still having a hard time to Eidolon in a fun squad, have enough anti tank, but still be fluffy. (Would like to have had a storm Eagle, jetbikes and 2 speeders, but then I can't take the dreadclaw.. Love the veterans in dreadclaw cause of their board control and speed, and AT power).

 

Please feel free to suggest lists or part there off, if you look at my previous list, you should have some idea about the models I already have (don't have the jetbikes and vindicator).

[Slips]

You know what would have rendered those Pyroclasts utterly unable to hurt your Eidolon Squad? The Void Shield Harness Relic. Give it to your Chaplain for an Av12 bubble.

[Theredknight]

You'd be surprised how effective a 15man assault squad with eidolon can be!

You get 3 pwr weapons, a spear on the sgt and Eidy smashing with the hammer. Plus they can capture at worst. I had an objective worth 5 vp to me or charge some missile launchers, I went for the vp which won the game.

I found with many trial and error losing streak of 14 games, that Sticking him in with blades is a big point sink. They are ok, and can damage enough on their own if needs be and armed right.

Phoenix guard are expensive wound takers for fulgrim.

I haven't tried him out really yet, but il try him with a command squad or some vets tooled for cc in a dreadclaw or even a big tactical squad, with a void harness forge Lord or chappy.

[MorgothNL]

You know what would have rendered those Pyroclasts utterly unable to hurt your Eidolon Squad? The Void Shield Harness Relic. Give it to your Chaplain for an Av12 bubble.

Let me get my books and start diggin. Book 4 right?

[Slips]

 

You know what would have rendered those Pyroclasts utterly unable to hurt your Eidolon Squad? The Void Shield Harness Relic. Give it to your Chaplain for an Av12 bubble.

Let me get my books and start diggin. Book 4 right?

 

Yessir.

[MorgothNL]

looks interesting indeed, could really help increase the survivability of the palatines, bolters not getting through, no problem with overwatch either.

 

So that brings me back to Eidolon, palatines and chaplain/medicae all with jump packs again. With the void shield. A 15 man assault squad seems to be something I don't have the points for, but I'll have a look.

 

I see I've been saying I'm building 2000pts lists the whole time, but I was actually talking about 2500 (the posted lists are 2500)

 

Edit: pff, Eidolon + chaplain + palatines (all jump packs ), comes down to an insane 770pts, for a unit that's still squishy, can't really kill tanks and can't take a transport. The Eidolon model looks to cool with JP not to equip it, but didn't realise that no matter his companions.. That means he can't take a ride.

[MorgothNL]

Boy this is frustrating, I just can't get Eidolon doing something usefull with his JP. Command squad is too small, palatines too fragile and no AT, assault squad is expensive in points, money and doesn't really appeal to me more than palatines.

 

In the end I'm starting to end up with a list that could be any legion. No palatine, no phoenix guard.. What else makes an EC army.. EC.

 

I've accepted that I might have to spend quite some more money to get to the army I want. But running palatine, and waiting to keep true to EC, means a serious lack of AT. Running palatine without JP in an anvillus, is nice for T2 charge, but I'd need to be able to charge something good, so those av14 need be broken at T2.. Not gonna happen.

 

I'm lost :(.

 

What HAS to be in my list: sicaran, storm Eagle, 1 or 2 contempor, Eidolon/fulgrim (seperate lists for each).

Don't really care about what I need to add, as long as I've got the army I'm looking for.

 

I have:

1 Sicaran

2 contempor

15 tacticals

5 palatine

2 vexilla

2 sergeants

1 champion

1 apothecary

2 rhino

1 storm Eagle

1 fulgrim

5 phoenix guard

5 missile launchers

1 Eidolon (pre ordered)

2 drop pod (mounted sideways on flying stand make for perfect dreadclaw for now)

 

Please suggest anything that you think would help me get the army I'm looking for. I want to play EC as fluffy as possible, so fast, board control, at least 1 nasty cc unit. 2500pts lists

The sicaran, eagle and eidolon/fulgrim are the only must haves, but of course I'd like not to have everything else I already have, catching dust.

 

 

I've spend hours and hours thinking and calculating, Help!

I'm about to give up and go to imperial fists or something , they have nice characters and 2+ save cc units. But would really like to finish my EC army.. Just about to rage quit here by looking at every else's goodies :(.

[Slips]

You dont have a Spartan on that list...

 

soo....