Story expectations in a world that doesn't change?

[Loesh]

Ultimately, I don't care what happens to Ahriman. The inherent tragedy of his existence is that he's denied what he wants, and each time he comes close it's a Monkey's Paw type of situation where it goes wrong. That's mythic tragedy. That's what interests me. I don't read novels for information on events in the setting, I read them for what it's like to live in the setting itself, and to see what those characters experience at the famous/interesting moments of their lives. Ahriman curing the Rubric, as an example, holds no interest to me, and literally defeats the point of his character's tragic fate. Ahriman trying to fix the Rubric, alternating between facing up to what he's done and trying to justify it - that's interesting. The things he'll do on the quest to fix it while being thwarted by the deities he believes he can break free from - that's revealing, interesting, and cool. That's the kind of stuff I care about.

EDIT: For clarity, I'm not saying any one way is wrong. Some games work great with a metaplot, and it can be an energising, motivating thing. It's not something I've ever felt 40K lacked though, in 25+ years of knowing the setting about as well as anyone can, so I struggle to engage when people say they see a need for it now.

You can TOTALLY write a good story where Ahirman succeeds and cures the Rubric.

.....And then the flesh change kicks in about ten times worse then it did before.

[Joe]

Abaddon has failed far too many times to be given the opportunity to redeem himself (I'm sorry, the post-EoT retcon was ridiculous, let's face it; Medusa V and Ciaphas Cain suffered as a result); bring an actual threat to the Imperium out of retirement. Bring Lorgar to the fore, have the remaining Emperor's Children find Fulgrim, and have Chaos overwhelm the Cadian gate and throw the Imperium into disarray; just enough that they are on the back foot and forced to make a few new friends out of necessity, but not enough that Terra itself is threatened.

 

That said, I never got the feeling that the Chaos Gods were as invested in the 40k universe as they were in WHFB. Sure, they had some influence in corrupting etc and his gang of followers (or rather, was it the inherent appeal/corruptive nature and emissaries of said 'god'?), but they weren't meddling in the mortal plane directly. It would certainly make an interesting twist.

 

Hey, they could even bring Malal back. :p

[A D-B]

Abaddon has failed far too many times to be given the opportunity to redeem himself (I'm sorry, the post-EoT retcon was ridiculous, let's face it; Medusa V and Ciaphas Cain suffered as a result); bring an actual threat to the Imperium out of retirement. Bring Lorgar to the fore, have the remaining Emperor's Children find Fulgrim, and have Chaos overwhelm the Cadian gate and throw the Imperium into disarray; just enough that they are on the back foot and forced to make a few new friends out of necessity, but not enough that Terra itself is threatened.

 

Joking aside, the reason the writers don't understand the "Abaddon is a failure" meme is because it's never been written in any published material or lore. It's fanon that people mistake as canon. I'm the first person to admit that Abaddon hasn't always been presented as the credible threat he is, but the "failure" meme is massively overblown and supported by practically nothing in actual print.

[Loesh]

'Retcon'

 

'Clarification'

 

Of these two words, only the second applies to Abaddon, and i'm not even a big Black Legion fan. But at the same time I recognize that most of his perceived 'failures' stemmed from us knowing little to nothing about the actual details of the character then anything that had ever solidly been set in stone.

[Scribe]

All you need do to correct that misunderstanding is release more books in the series Aaron. ;)

[Loesh]

Also, if you're not convinced by Abaddon himself, one of the signals of the End Times is that the Daemon Primarchs may very well be participating You may not like they are serving beside(Or even under.) Abaddon, but there's the distinct possibility they are there, and it's part of a squillion reasons why the 13th Black Crusade is such a big deal. Fulgrim MIGHT be there, so could Lorgar, do you think they are going to miss the apocalypse?

[A D-B]

All you need do to correct that misunderstanding is release more books in the series Aaron.

Yes and no. Yes, because... yes.

No, because people will still falsely believe it's a retcon, and some of my fave ideas that I want to devote a lot of time to down the line are the moments when the Black Legion overextends, or gets betrayed, and Abaddon is left to pick up the pieces.

[Scribe]

Well setbacks, and defeats, are part of what makes 40K what it is. Nobody gets to outright win, ever, even in the end I think it will all go to hell for everyone.

[1000 Sons]

Joking aside, the reason the writers don't understand the "Abaddon is a failure" meme is because it's never been written in any published material or lore. It's fanon that people mistake as canon. I'm the first person to admit that Abaddon hasn't always been presented as the credible threat he is, but the "failure" meme is massively overblown and supported by practically nothing in actual print.

I don't think you can change the impression of Abaddon in the current 40k setting novels, but the way it is being done in your Black Legion novel can through the past.  I really do hope that this arc is very successful so that other big chaos lords can get the same treatment, see how they came up and won those early victories that cemented them as leaders of the traitors.

[Karthak]

 

Ahriman curing the Rubric, as an example, holds no interest to me, and literally defeats the point of his character's tragic fate. Ahriman trying to fix the Rubric, alternating between facing up to what he's done and trying to justify it - that's interesting. The things he'll do on the quest to fix it while being thwarted by the deities he believes he can break free from - that's revealing, interesting, and cool. That's the kind of stuff I care about.

 

Couldn't he also go with the "eff it, I quit!" option? Finally realizing that there's no undoing what he's done, and trying to move on from there?

[Scribe]

Sure, but when its the central defining theme of his character, and hes been on about it for 8000 odd years...somehow I doubt he hits that next phase of development.

[Carrack]

Carrack, I truly think it's you and people like you, that Black Library and it's monopoly are trying to sell to. They fear the people that ask too many questions. They can't control their wallets when they dare to ask questions!

 

It's much easier selling the same story over and over to someone that doesn't really care about story line, because the 41st millennium is so vast, that anything is possible!

 

As you say, a difference in opinion. Just remember it's not bad to ask questions.

Well there is some definate truth to that, my wallet is much lighter thanks to the Black Library. :)

[Joe]

 

Joking aside, the reason the writers don't understand the "Abaddon is a failure" meme is because it's never been written in any published material or lore. It's fanon that people mistake as canon. I'm the first person to admit that Abaddon hasn't always been presented as the credible threat he is, but the "failure" meme is massively overblown and supported by practically nothing in actual print.

 

That's pretty much my biggest issue with it. It didn't feel like a clarification, rather a... justification? I mean, come on, the end of the Eye of Terror was nice. Eldrad was dead, the forces of Chaos were forced to retreat from Cadia (although iirc, there were still forces trapped on the planet below?) and Abaddon was down a Blackstone Fortress on account of the Eldar. There was no need to write that out of history; it was an interesting end to the conflict. That said, 1000 sons was right; Abaddon's image as a failure has been cemented amongst the fans in 40k, at least.

 

I do enjoy Abaddon as a character, though. What you've been writing for him pre-40k is fantastic, and I'm looking forward to seeing more in the future. I would certainly like to see GW/BL release an up-to-date Abaddon model to tie-in with any future releases.

 

@Loesh; I don't recall it ever being mentioned anywhere that the Daemon Primarchs were involved in the 13th Black Crusade? I can't grab my copy of the campaign book as it's in storage at the moment, but as far as I remember the only time any one of the DPs got involved with Abaddon's wars was Perturabo and the... 7th/8th/9th Black Crusade? One of them, anyway.

[Teetengee]

As far as I remember, the 13th black crusade is the big one, the one where all the oaths are fulfilled, the daemon primarchs ride at the vanguard of the legions alongside the biggest and baddest of them all the Black Legion. Abaddon leads all of that.

Even though it obviously isn't confirmed, I think it is also the time of ending for all the races, even the lost primarchs who can return do so, perhaps giving one final hope against the tide of chaos, but perhaps seeing what has become of the imperium and hating it just as much as their heretical enemies.

I dislike Abaddon (because the model is completely ridiculous and I am not a huge fan of gigantic top knots) but he is the single most powerful champion of chaos to ever exist. Not because he has more physical prowess or mental acuity, but because in a sense the gods serve him as he has gained their blessing while simultaneously remaining completely outside of their yoke.

[Loesh]

 

 

Joking aside, the reason the writers don't understand the "Abaddon is a failure" meme is because it's never been written in any published material or lore. It's fanon that people mistake as canon. I'm the first person to admit that Abaddon hasn't always been presented as the credible threat he is, but the "failure" meme is massively overblown and supported by practically nothing in actual print.

 

That's pretty much my biggest issue with it. It didn't feel like a clarification, rather a... justification? I mean, come on, the end of the Eye of Terror was nice. Eldrad was dead, the forces of Chaos were forced to retreat from Cadia (although iirc, there were still forces trapped on the planet below?) and Abaddon was down a Blackstone Fortress on account of the Eldar. There was no need to write that out of history; it was an interesting end to the conflict. That said, 1000 sons was right; Abaddon's image as a failure has been cemented amongst the fans in 40k, at least.

 

I do enjoy Abaddon as a character, though. What you've been writing for him pre-40k is fantastic, and I'm looking forward to seeing more in the future. I would certainly like to see GW/BL release an up-to-date Abaddon model to tie-in with any future releases.

 

@Loesh; I don't recall it ever being mentioned anywhere that the Daemon Primarchs were involved in the 13th Black Crusade? I can't grab my copy of the campaign book as it's in storage at the moment, but as far as I remember the only time any one of the DPs got involved with Abaddon's wars was Perturabo and the... 7th/8th/9th Black Crusade? One of them, anyway.

 

 

I could swear that somewhere it's said rumors of the Daemon Primarchs being involved, I can't think of a reason why they wouldn't be.

 

In Eternal Crusade they are also apparently paying attention to Arkhona at the tail end of the campaign if you count the video games(Though Eternal Crusade is stated to be canon.).

 

Edit: To add a little bit, it's also a lot about how people perceive the setting as ADB said. Some folks(Like me) don't see any need to advance the story so much as just expand on the current one. I wouldn't object a ton though(Though a lot more then before Age of Sigmar.) because I could see something good being pulled off. After all, there's no objectively right or wrong opinions about the fluff.

 

Unless you are one of those people who tell me Angel Exterminatus is a better book then Fulgrim. In which case I just sort of stare at you like a weird alien.

[HeritorA]

A D-B we simply need your second Abaddon book right now Sigismund-Conan, firsty Black Crusade, Old party to the fore- we need that more, than the Master of Mankind