Effective use of breachers

[Hesh Kadesh]

Deploy on foot, scout with a Vigilator (don't take Recon armour) and then unleash 4 Graviton Blasts first turn.

[FuzzyBunny]

I take my breachers because I run a tank heavy Hammer of Olympia and they can take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport. That and I have found them to be surprisingly durable in close combat against things that much up normal marines, that 5+ invulnerable save is WAY better than nothing. I personally arm my Sarge with a Thunder Hammer as he won't be getting a second attack for second hand weapon anyways, and it looks fething cool.

[Still Standing]

I run Breachers in pretty much every list with my Thousand Sons.  I originally built them with Grav, but at some point tore those off and gave them Melta.  Grav is nice in theory, but the inability to move is crippling.  Melta is fantastic for killing a Contemptor as it charges at you in ZM, or dropping a couple of Terminators before you charge them.

 

20 Breachers, 4 Melta Guns, Melta Bombs, Vexilla, Sgt w/ Artificer Armour, Power Fist, Bolter, Breaching Charge, Apothecary w/ Artificer Armour, Power Weapon.

 

Stick that in a Deep Striking Storm Eagle and your opponent has 1 turn to kill it before his vehicle squadrons start dying.

 

My second preferred option is this.

 

10 Breachers, 2 Melta Guns, Melta Bombs, Vexilla, Sgt w/ Artificer Armour, Power Fist, Bolter, Breaching Charge.

 

Stick it in a Land Raider Phobos (with the Assault Ramp).  It's a Knight killer.

 

Somebody recommended you do not take the Breaching Charge.  That is bad advice.  Charge the squad into something, issue challenge, place Breaching Charge, watch as the IC has to pass 6-8 invulnerable saves he cannot pass off, or be instant deathed. I've killed a number of Thunder Hammer or Power Fist armed guys this way.

 

Breachers are extremely expensive.  There is no denying that.  However, they are effective if used correctly.

[Terminus]

On the other hand, that's 590 points before upgrades to the transport.  A lot of stuff is a knight killer with that kind of investment. There's effective and then there is cost-effective. But they look cool and bigger games allow for that. Plus it's nice to have a troop choice that does something other than huddle around objectives using their boltshells for kindling.

[Still Standing]

The Knight will kill 2 or 3, then the explosion will kill another couple unless you get unlucky on the scatter.  That gives you half of a squad of Breachers and a Land Raider left over.  A squad will do more than 1 thing in a game.

[Terminus]

The Knight will kill 2 or 3, then the explosion will kill another couple unless you get unlucky on the scatter.  That gives you half of a squad of Breachers and a Land Raider left over.  A squad will do more than 1 thing in a game.

I'm just saying, you can spend less than 600 points to kill a knight without losing anything to its explosion. Saying something is a "Knight Killer" at that cost isn't saying much, considering you can buy two Gallants for 50 more points. Now THERE are some Knight Killers.

[Still Standing]

You can't buy any Gallants, this is a 30k list.  A squad of Breachers in a Land Raider is a compulsary troops choice which is not in the list specifically to kill Knights, it's just very good at it.  They are there as the most flexible Troops choice outside of Veteran Tactical Squads, which also has a higher damage output and better defensive ability than Tactical Marines.  If I want something specifically to kill Knights I do not look in my Troops selection, unless I'm using Mechanicum allies.

[Terminus]

I don't think Hardened Armor and shields makes them more defensive than twice as many tactical bodies. I would probably put these guys in an Anvillus before a Phobos.

[Still Standing]

There is only so many you can fit in a vehicle. 10 Breachers are unarguable more durable than 10 Tactical Marines. Against certain weapons they are more durable than Terminators.

[Terminus]

10 Breachers equipped as you stated without transport = 340 points. Two tactical squads in rhinos = 370.

 

What weapons are breachers more resistant to than terminators? Flamers and frag missiles?

[Still Standing]

Anything AP4 and worse that uses a template or blast. You don't like them, I get it. You don't have to try so hard not to see their positives.

[Caillum]

What weapons are breachers more resistant to than terminators? Flamers and frag missiles?

There's a couple more weapons than that, but you've made your point - a lot of AP 4, 5 & 6 weapons are not Blast, so that reroll is not coming up much.

 

Focusing on the subject matter though, "Effective use of Breachers", I think 20 in a Spartan is a terriying prospect to face. If they're Stone Gauntlet Imperial Fists or Ultramarines with some power swords, yikes! Pricey, but they can definitely achieve more than most Legions' Tactical Squads.

[Terminus]

Anything AP4 and worse that uses a template or blast. You don't like them, I get it. You don't have to try so hard not to see their positives.

So not a whole damn lot. And you don't get it, I've already acknowledged that it is nice to have a troop choice that does something, and I am not exactly a min-maxer considering I use assault marines. My objection is mainly behind the sentiment that they are somehow awesome because if you spend 340 points on the unit and then buy them the worst transport option in the Legion list for another 250+.

[Still Standing]

The worst transport? Give me another dedicated transport they can take that's got an assault ramp and isn't going to kill them all in a fiery death ball.

[Terminus]

Any variety of pod or flier.  Is it the dedicated nature of the transport that sells on you on this combo?

[Still Standing]

Drop Pods are too limiting for me in 30k.  The only ones I make use of are Dreadnought Drop Pods.  Fliers are too risky.  A number of times I've transported large squads in Storm Eagles before they could do anything.  Even if they do arrive, you sacrifice the Storm Eagle, because your opponent will focus it down as soon as it hovers.  Another option is the Caestus, but that's a Heavy slot and a Breacher squad isn't a good enough investment to waste a Heavy slot on.

[Gorgoff]

I don't get it. First you assume, that it is legit to buy a 500 points Breacher Squad with an 55 points Apothecarius and transport it with a Storm Eagle. Now you write that it is not worth it because the flier dies.

That's odd.

But anyways.

Ten Breachers are crap too. Again your idea is to kit them out with allmost everything they can get, put 'em in a Land Raider and send them hunting Knights. I have to admit that they'll kill every Knight they can put their hands on, but how will that happen? A Knight is fast and unless your opponent is a nutcase you won't get into close combat.

Second question is how many points do you guys play? I think that is very important.

Like I meantioned before we seldom play more than 1500 points. You can't field Breachers their. Without any stuff they and their Land Raider cost 1/3 of your army. Thats way to much.

But let's say that you play with 2000 points. Even in that case 500 points plus stuff is very very much. And only usefull against armies with a Knight or some other armoured unit like Pask and his two friends in a squadron of Russ for example.

Let's further assume that you get Pask in CC and won't get tarpitted by some cheap douches or your Raider don't get shot or immobilized.

Still that are pretty few occations in which Breachers shine.

For my taste too few.

I mean, yes, they are good at taking blasts or templates which are AP4 or less but most times Marines get shot or chopped by massiv amounts of small arms fire/punches. (..with small arms. Get it? *badum-tssss) And there they'll die as easy as Tactical Marines.

In most games they are useless because they don't have a proper objective. You don't send them against Orcs, Tyranids, Eldar or Tau.

They are way to specialized which is a shame due to their awesome models.

I mean I love the whole concept. Meanmachines with huge shields storming fortifications, clubbing, stabbing shooting... Just plain awesome :D

But ruleswise? Nah, I take TT.

[Still Standing]

We play 3000 point games, as 30k is intended.

 

The Stormeagle thing was to deep strike and disgorge them immediately. You'll probably lose the Storm Eagle, but you always run that risk when deploying troops from one. 4-600 points of Breachers + Characters is far too much of a risk in a flying coffin.

[Cadmus Tyro]

I've been following this thread intently and enjoyed all the points and counter points of the efficacy of breacher squads.

 

I have my eye on a squad of immortals, which keeps going in and out of my shopping cart! (I secretly want them because they look awesome!)

 

I can't help thinking the rules for the breaching shield need amending, essentially you get very little benefit from ranged attacks. Perhaps bringing them more in line with 'siege manlets' (re-roll failed armor saves) would help to improve this, or perhaps just adding +1 to cover saves (echoing 6th edition defensive grenade rules).

 

I hope FW address this in the next book....

What improvements would justify their current cost?

[Still Standing]

They are primarily designed for use in ZM, where they are incredibly powerful. I doubt they will be changed.

[Theredknight]

Maybe getting hammer of wrath, charging in with a massive shield and bludgeoning them first off would be a good way to represent it.

Other than that, stubborn maybe?

 

Their job on a battlefield is mainly to take and hold objectives better than tacticals, they are only slightly stronger but not worth the points cost for that benefit.

 

Zm they are a great unit, depends how many zm battles you play I guess

[Cadmus Tyro]

And yet the change to defensive grenades from 6th - 7th took away their +1 cover save at 8" range. Even in 6th (with that bonus) people were still commenting they were not worth their points. Perhaps they won't update the rules, time will tell. I should probably just be glad that iron hands breachers are naturally more resilient!

 

HoW would give them more of offensive edge, but they still won't hold up to shooting attacks.

[Brofist]

I've always been in favor of giving them siege mantlets or their very own FNP. Or just dropping the cost on the damn things.

 

I love the models, but I just cant justify taking them at 1850 point games :(

[FuzzyBunny]

I still love my Breachers. Played a game over the weekend against a Sally player. 2k each, all my tanks, him with Vulkan in a Spartan with those angry 2 wound terminators. Breachers Tanked Vulkan 2 1/2 game turns before the sarge finally dieing. They would have done ever better if I would have charged Vulkan to spread out more, but I forgot about his meteor attack thing which waxed half the squad in one go, I botched 5 of the 6 saves.

 

Still, there is nothing I'd rather run into a killy Primarch than my Breachers if I just want to keep him tied up. I've tanked both Vulkan and Morty with these guys. Especially when against these types of things having the 10 guys with 5++ saves is WAY better than having 20 guys with no saves, as you'll just get run down when you fail that moral. The difference in having only -1 or -2 to your moral and having -3 or -4 or more is HUGE.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Maybe getting hammer of wrath, charging in with a massive shield and bludgeoning them first off would be a good way to represent it.

Other than that, stubborn maybe?

 

Their job on a battlefield is mainly to take and hold objectives better than tacticals, they are only slightly stronger but not worth the points cost for that benefit.

No, their role is to breach things. Hence the name. ;)