Salamanders - In Universe perception

[Kor'Vesh]

Fraters - I've been thinking about my beloved XVIIIth Legion, and I'm curious to establish how they are perceived in-Universe, and why they are protrayed the way they are.

 

I've not read all of the HH series, but I've read a fair few, and my general feeling is that there are few references to the Salamanders, and Vulkan in particular, as well as little information about their collaborations with other legions pre-Istvaan. Those that exist don't seem to be overly positive - we have the obviousl tension between Kurze and Vulkan lives, though Kurze not liking you is clearly a good thing, but more oddly the thoughts of Guilliman talking of Vulkan as a 'poor totured soul' (I think that is the line) in know no fear. I'm sure there is another such reference in another heresy book.

 

Now against this relative annonymity, and mistrust, we have information in Massacre which talks of a proto-legion with obvious flaws, on the very of extinction pre-Vulkan. However, Vulkan's arrival reshaped the legion, unified them, and made them, in many ways, a model of controlled fury, always fighting for humanity. Furthermore, the allies matrix in Betrayal basically has the Salamanders as the friendly legion.

 

So, in my mind, we have a bit of a conundrum. Vulkan is clearly a positive influence on the legion, was found early in the list of primarchs, and gets on with most of his brothers. His legion is pretty effective, with no overly upsetting tendancies (though they are slightly over protective of non-posthumans, like fire and 'have views' about phosphex) and a near unbreakable deadication to the great crusade... but they don't seem to be held in high regard by anyone.

 

Why?

 

Now, to answer my own question:

- I could be wrong, and missing a lot of positive references about the XVIIIth.

- It could be an artifact of them being one of the loyal massacred legions, who never had a huge amount of background anyway.

- We know the legion was small, and didn't really seek glory or adulation

- Vulkan certainly was never fully happy being a war leader, despite his success.

- Maybe the Salamanders are simply the archetypal middle of the road legion - a safe pair of hands, but never exceptional in the way of most of their cousins were in some small way.

 

But which is the case, or am I missing something? Can you help make more sense of the Salamanders in the great crusade?

[Teetengee]

I think these:

- We know the legion was small, and didn't really seek glory or adulation

- Vulkan certainly was never fully happy being a war leader, despite his success.

are the most accurate.
All the other legions in some way or another wanted glory or admiration, and I don't think the Salamanders ever sought that, and therefore didn't really get it.

[Zebulon]

It seems to me the Salamanders don't require their brother legions to stand in awe of them. They are happy to protect humanity, live halfway "normal" lives despite being metahuman and can enjoy a simple life of weapon crafting and self reliance.

 

Contrast that with the bitterness of Iron Warriors whose yearning for glory and respect turns poisons them in the end. They have what in tragic literature is a true "flaw" whereas the Sallies are humble, and do not commit the sin of hubris.

[Kor'Vesh]

Both points I pretty much agree with, they don't seek honour or recognition from outside the legion. But I don't feel this explains everything...

 

Does Vulkan's conflict mean he is not respected by his brothers? And how are the Salamanders actually regarded by the other legions?

 

Thanks for the responses so far though guys. This has been niggling me for a while - I think it is really interesting, and I'm keen to improve my own understanding of the information that is out there!

[Son of Carnelian]

I think they view his reluctance as an oddity while admiring his skill and diplomacy. Remember, Guilliman also divided his time between war and stewardship. But he never fought a war reluctantly and while he would protect civilians as best he could, he would never prioritize them over victory. The Salamanders don't really have bad blood with anyone. Vulkan knows the values and virtues of his brothers and largely avoids offending them. But by the same token, he stands out as an oddity as the Primarch who most embodies the Emperor's humanity. All his sons are aspects of their father, but it always comes back to martial skill in at least some way. Vulkan, like Ferrus, is a craftsman, but he doesn't quite possess the warrior spirit of the Iron Hands' sire. His creations express themselves in other ways. 

 

Like the best legions, a contradiction and conflict exist within the ranks of the Salamanders. Warriors who passionately believe in the sanctity of life. This makes their brothers respect them, but they can never really understand them. No other legion has that specific conflict. For Space Marines, the decision of whether to fight or not is already made by the time they arrive. Only the Salamanders slow down enough to wonder even if they should fight. 

 

Does any of that makes sense?

[RandomMarine]

In death fire its suggested the vulkan and Ferris are quiet friendly dispute there very different views on humanity

[Icarus1138]

I think part of it is that Vulkan and the Salamanders (awesome band name) were somewhat ill-suited by nature to be warriors, compared to other legions. They'd rather build and protect than conquer and destroy. That's not to say they weren't effective, they just took much less joy and pride in their work, Vulkan especially. That certainly makes him an outsider. It's important to note that the other Primarchs that didn't have a heart for war were also generally ignored or looked down on: Magnus and Lorgar come to mind.

[Kor'Vesh]

Son of Carnelian - that made vast amounts of sense, and was just the kind of thing I was looking for. Thank you!

 

Random - absolutely correct, and it was nice to finally see a specific mention of a good relationship or even friendship between Vulkan and one of his brothers. The gorgon and vulkan certainly had plenty of common ground, but there must be some serious friction too!

 

Icarus - I wouldn't say I'll suited to be warriors, but certainly less dedicated to the warrior life than most other legions. I've been thinking there are a lot of parallels between longer and vulkan recently, despite the fact that I loathe Lorgar! The salamanders are rather spiritual, and certainly more complex and human than most other astartes. Somehow this is a strength for them, but a weakness for the word bearers, possibly due to their need for a god, or avatar to devote themselves to unquestioningly. Conversely the salamanders follow a reasoned ideal.

 

So, this is all great so far. Does anyone have more examples of salamander references of facts from the HH series?

[Icarus1138]

I think the Salamanders spirituality is a positive thing, but with drawbacks. In Damnation of Pythos (a book I do not care for, admittedly) the Salamander's compassion for civilians really bites them in the ass. Another novel (I forget which) has a Space Marine thinking that if the entire Imperium were made up of Prometheans, there never would have been a Heresy. So it has ups and downs.

 

I personally think the religious focus of the Word Bearers is poorly represented, due to their faith during the Heresy being in something awful. Because of that, you never really see it depicted in any kind of positive light. Faith, hope, self-sacrifice, wisdom, and courage are all positive attributes associated with religious belief but Word Bearers aren't shown as possessing those in any positive way. Chaos corrupts all, I suppose. Well, that and the fact that real-life religious warriors in Western tradition (the foundation of Warhammer mythology) are already claimed by other legions, thematically.

 

Back to Salamanders, I think they are perceived as being the most spiritual of the loyalist legions. Their only competition is in the White Scars and Space Wolves.

[Saphrael]

I think the Word Bearers' religious focus is perfectly represented as a cautionary tale in the dangers of faith. The 30k emphasis is fresh in that it achieves a criticism of religion that isn't focused on the typical negative attributes associated with religions (blind doctrinal adherence, ritualism or scriptural word games) but rather focuses on the danger of the suspension of reason. The horror/tragedy of the setting is that unlike religions in the real world, the Word Bearers have faith in something that is real and has a temporal impact on reality, and with disasterous consequences for the universe.

 

I'm not as familiar with Salamander's spirituality (having only read the FW:HH material on them and not the BL novels), but what I've come across so far makes me think more of reasoned--almost Renaissance style--Humanism, with their compassion for humanity rooted in a benevolent superiority, rather than spiritualism or religiosity.

[Kor'Vesh]

Saph - I agree with your take on the sallie spirituality - or at least the Prometheus cult in general. All pretty cool. But do we have many examples of how this is viewed by outsiders in-universe? Particularly pre-istvaan.

 

Icarus - more good thoughts. The pro-Prometheus was in scars, either the iron hand or scars librarian. Was a nice touch, and one of the rarer strong positive perceptions of the legion that I know of. What more can you tell me about pythos - I've not read that. Is it more bands of plucky survivors who all die?

 

Are there any hints of how the sallies are perceived in their short Stories? I've missed scorched Earth, promethium sun etc.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

Saphrael - personally I agree with you but please let's not derail this thread and get it melta'd by the mods.

 

On topic I think the basic reason is that the Primarchs and Legions are still partly human and human relationships and opinions are not based on objective evaluations. I've never really understood it myself, probably because/why I tended to the Vulkan or Khan of any group - good at stuff but content to get on with it without being one of the "cool kids".

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Let's try to keep real world religion out of the discussion, please.

[apologist]

A lot of good discussion here; thanks for a the thought-provoking topic. 

At root, I think the Salamanders represent a relatively modern-day mindset – war is sometimes necessary, but unpleasant. Logic and reason are worthwhile pursuits, but there is also space for spirituality. Their humanity is emphasised, as is their relationship with and attitude towards non-Astartes. This is in contrast to the other Legions – and the Imperium at large – which has a much less liberal approach and worldview, more in common with the ancient world, or the Dark Ages. Life is cheap, and glory forever. The enemy are non-human (literally, here!) – time to realise humanity's 'manifest destiny'. 

 

Most Imperial soldiers would not question humanity's 'right' to rule the galaxy, particularly the Astartes. They, and the wider Imperium, have a black-and-white view of things common to fascistic or totalitarian states. The rationality of the Imperial Truth, or nonsensical superstitions. Compliance, or death. In contrast, then, the Salamanders represent an oddity in-universe: soldiers with a conscience; and their careful, considered approach to all things is seen by some in the Imperium as needless hand-wringing, over-cautious hesistation, or even lack of ability. This is highlighted when you look purely at results, at victory tallies or worlds conquered – as the other Legions tend to – rather than the Salamanders more considered and steady progress. 

 

The Horus Heresy sees the Great Crusade come towards a close, and it is clear that now the Astartes are starting to question their place. Worlds have started to rebel, or secede. Now the wisdom of sewing and tending the land you conquer, rather than rushing to find the next field, becomes clearer – unfortunately, too late for some.

[Kor'Vesh]

Thanks Apologist, glad you like the topic, and that was a fantastic response!

 

I particularly like the idea that the benefits of the salamanders unique approach may have become more apparent to the imperium at large, just at the point that the legion get massacred. The positive view of the salamanders in Scars might reflect this a bit too.

 

Maybe the Salamanders earn their respect on a personal level, based on thousands of interlegionary personal interactions, but their less military outlook, smaller size, lack of interest in glory, and presumably lower compliance rate (any evidence for this), mean that the legion as a whole lacks the same regard as their more 'grand standing' cousins?

 

So, do people have more specific thoughts on Vulkan's relationships with his brothers? Obviously a lot of the points apply here, but I'm intrigued by the fact that Vulkan raised his legion from self destruction and mistrust (as part of the emperor's trefoil) to one of the most cooperative (maybe respected?) legions - based on the allies matrix. Despite this we still have Guilliman's tortured soul comment (yes, that has alway bothered me, and I concede it it probably the fan boy in me!), and little insight into Vulkan's personal relationships with his brothers. Surely and early found brother who saved his legion would have had respect and positive interactions with some of the others?

[Iron Bars]

I always thought the tortured soul comment was a reflection of what Curze had done to Vulkan, who is basically a rage filled crisp at the time of the comment. 

[Daemon2027]

I'm really not sure on the tourtued soul comment, or the context it was said but here is what I think on it.

 

Vulkan is spit between two personas. On one hand he is a protector, who didn't conquer his world, but made them safe. He wants to extend this over the galaxy. To unite humanity, to bring them together and work to protect them from predatory forces. He doesnt want to conquor.

But this is at odds with his second persona, that of a son, general and leader of the Imperiums warmachine. He was made to conquor those that stand in the way of his Farther's empire. This means he needs to fight, kill, and destroy human world who reject the Imperium. So he is forced to fight those he wishs to protect. Now you can argue that by killing some, he protects many, but as a highly spiritual figure this would still effect him. So I think in that waybhe is tourtured, unsure slighlty of his purpose.

 

I think it's best summed up in his role as a smith. Manus and Purturabos are also smiths but they create pure weapons. A sword is a sword, forged for one purpose. Vulkan is an artificer, he creates art. He would make sword decorated with imperial eagles, inlaying golds and silvers. The result would be a piece of beauty. But its still a sword, with a Sharpe edje, designed to kill. As we saw in the short where he looks to hide his armoury he is compelled to build these weapons no matter how destructive they are. Again we see his duel nature as creator and destroyer.

 

How would his brothers see him. I think many, especially those who join the warmaster will see him as weak. I imagine he would get on well with the ones who value art, so Sanguinius and Fulgrim, although they may differ on warfare, and those to may shy away from Vulkan appearence. I'd imagine he would be on good terms with Corax as the Raven Lord also values human life to a degree, although Corax nature may keep them seperated. I could also see him being friendly with both Khan and Russ, as they both value culture and may sympathise with the fact that what you see isnt always what you get.

[strongbow]

I think it's best summed up in his role as a smith. Manus and Purturabos are also smiths but they create pure weapons. A sword is a sword, forged for one purpose. Vulkan is an artificer, he creates art. He would make sword decorated with imperial eagles, inlaying golds and silvers. The result would be a piece of beauty. But its still a sword, with a Sharpe edje, designed to kill. As we saw in the short where he looks to hide his armoury he is compelled to build these weapons no matter how destructive they are. Again we see his duel nature as creator and destroyer.

 

 

One thing I have to say with regards to Perturabo - if you read Angel Exterminatus you can clearly see that he is an artist as well. He is a peer-less architect and can build extremely complex mechanical objects (that are not weapons). It's really interesting because you realise how much better off the Imperium would have been if he had not rebelled, and you feel real empathy for this traitorous primarch because despite his obvious talent and skill, he has been completely overlooked by his brothers and father.

[Daemon2027]

I agree with you on Perturabo, he has been show to have an artistic side. However, I think if he was to make a weapon HR would make it functional with little embellishment. The only time he mixes art is in his siegecraft, and then its more develish.

 

But as this is about Vulken and his Salamanders I didn't really want to expand on that in my initial post.

[Remus Ventanus.]

I too found Guillimans quote on vulkan strange, as they both seem to have alot of the same values. I think they both actually want peace, and they both want lives other then warfare for there sons. I would like to know what Guilliman actually meant.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

I don't think anyone thought Vulkan was weak through his lack of ambition. More so he was not ambitious enough to use the great strength he had. They probably (and rightfully) saw him as a lost cause for conversion to the traitor's side, but certainly worried enough about the potency of his Legion. 

After all, the Cabal forsaw him as one of the stoutest defenders of Terra. I forget which book, probably Vulkan Lives? I always thought he was one of the staunchest Legions, but the reason he wasn't one of Guillimans .. dauntless was it? few due to his protective nature, others found him a reliable ally but nothing more. 

 

Perhaps he has the respect similar to Qacton Cruze? As an older warhorse, but whose star was outshone by later Legion antics? 

Maybe we just haven't had enough focus on Great Crusade era Salamander antics, to tell us about it all. We've got two stories? The Night Lord interaction (which I imagine would be the same for most Legions) and the Prometum Sun (Not sure if correct name) where he bashes up some Eldar pylons and shows disdain for the DG. 

[Kor'Vesh]

Hydra - I love the parallels you draw between his nature and smith craft. Very elegant, and not something I'd considered. There is an interesting level of parallel with Perturabo here, but the letters attitude to life would be a serious stickler.

 

God potato - you are essentially correct, in that we know little of them pre-heresy, and it is that absence that I'm partly intrigued by. Is it an intentional gap reflecting the way they are somewhat over looked - solid, reliable, but unspectacular? Or is it just that people have rarely written on the sallies in the past, and so they don't think to write.

 

Remus- this is the crux of the comment for me too. It feels derogatory, but I think vulkan and robots would have a LOT of common ground. Vulkan ought to be in with sandy, dorn and Ferrus too... Or at least that is my sense.

[Remus Ventanus.]

Perhaps it is a personal issue between Guilliman and Vulkan. But yes, they are very similar in ideology. 

Remus- this is the crux of the comment for me too. It feels derogatory, but I think vulkan and robots would have a LOT of common ground. Vulkan ought to be in with sandy, dorn and Ferrus too... Or at least that is my sense.

 

A quote from know no fear displaying What guilliman wants his sons to be "Space Marines excel at warfare because they were designed to excel at everything. Each of you will become a leader, a ruler, the master of your world and, because there is no more fighting to be done, you will bend your transhuman talents to governance and culture."

 

seems to go hand in hand with Vulkan. That being said the only Guilliman is known to have really liked is Ferrus, so maybe its just Guilliman being a starch arse.

[Wade Garrett]

Considering that Guilliman has Leman fething Russ as one of his Dauntless Few, I am very skeptical that he looked down on Vulkan for not being spit and polish by the book enough.

 

Can I ask for a citation on the "tortured soul" remark? The closest thing I can find is a description of Vulkan as a "buried soul" in Know No Fear.

[Kor'Vesh]

Apologies Wade, you look to be correct. It is the quote from know no fear I was refferring to, and it looks to be buried soul. Still seems a little dismissive or derogatory... But maybe it wasn't even Guilliman's quote... I don't have the book itself, so I can't check!

 

Any who, I thought I'd look at vulkan on the tarot website. Quite interesting, and suffice to say it has Vulkan and Guilliman having a tepid relationship - a similar outlook, but little else in common. Got to run now, but I'll expand on it later.