Grifftofer Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Quick question: did Worldbreaker get made by the Emperor? Also, I think I found a piece of evidence for the undercosting. Actually, the point system might be a little schizophrenic. In Massacre, Forgebreaker is worth 40 points when it's taken away from Ferrus. In Extermination, Perturabo can buy it for 35 points, with the addition of Blind and Unwieldy. Using my own system, where AP is worth 5 points per level, I immediately start at 30 points before I even touch the x2 strength. ... Does anybody feel like we're playing a skit out of Whose Line Is It, Anyway? But don't ferrus and peturabo have ap2 as standard (from the logos and smash), so the ap increase is only worth about 5 points? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4209792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Captain Redd Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Everything I've read said Worldbreaker was rumored to be made by the Emperor, which could really just mean it was made by Ferrus' magic metal bending. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4209794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) Perturabo, yes. Ferrus, no. He has no inherent AP. I think Demus is onto something. There is more art than science in this endeavor. *contemplates throwing Primarch calculator out nearest window* Alright, in that case, Redd, let Daer'dd forge away. Edited October 28, 2015 by simison Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4209801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grifftofer Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 But Ferrus has the Smash special rule, which makes all of his attacks AP2 regardless of weapon profile, in addition to a couple of other bits. It means he can be on par with the other Primarchs even if he just pounds on them with his fists :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4209805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Captain Redd Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 But Ferrus has the Smash special rule, which makes all of his attacks AP2 regardless of weapon profile, in addition to a couple of other bits. It means he can be on par with the other Primarchs even if he just pounds on them with his fists :) Same reason I gave it to Daer'dd. And I will get on it Simison. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4209807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 *facepalm* Yes, yes, that's true. So, that leaves Concussive, Strikedown, and x2 Str for 40 points. I'm actually surprised by how limited Strikedown is. A unit with a unit from it, moves as though in Difficult terrain. But as a melee weapon, the only possible chance that comes into play is if the wound is taken, but the wounded model wins the fight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4209811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Yeah. You can easily playtest against canonprimarchs to check how they fare and if the points are well balanced. For example Gwalchavad smases lorgar bit is kicked in the groin by angron, vulkan, ferrus and even fulgrim( i consider him very weak. But that is my opinion). So how would you point him? As his old versikn was between 380 and 435 points i just added fifty points cause better be too expensive than broken. What i wanna say is, that the primarchs from fw are indeed badly balanced and undercosted. So i think mostly we were more realistic when it comes to to the oints Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4209813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Being a fledgelong game designer (soon by trade hopefully) I'm more than willing to help some of you make a bridge between fluff and rules. As for mine own creation(s) I never really attempted to 1-up anyone whether it be cannonverse or otherwise. I just had an idea and went with it and patiently waited for C&C and well, he's at where he is now. I mostly use the cannon characters as a point of inspiration and never try to directly compete with any unless it makes sense due to the characters having many similarities. Also, if our primarchs are more expensive but the relative power level is slightly lower, I think it balances it out since it shows restraint, imo. As for primarch type, the more general (like Pionus) the more I tend to be harsher on their cost since they can do more for an army. Specialist Primarchs, like Angron who is a CC beast and little else, gets some slack due to him being good at his focus and very little else. Demus Ragnok and simison 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4209858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Captain Redd Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Also I'd say daer'dd hits as hard as ferrus and vulkan. He doesn't have the raw strength value of their weapons, but has more attacks (and shred?) To compensate for that. I will agree that they are tougher though, by a reasonable amount. The biggest difference is they both can wail STR 10 ap 1 concussive at int 5 all day long. But to his Hulk esque origins situationally Daer'dd can become more dangerous if he's within 12 or 18" of a IB unit when it's destroyed he can potentially get 12 STR 9 ap 2 shred attacks plus 3 HOW hits with concussive. But he can't make a sweeping advance. MikhalLeNoir 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4209866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Also I'd say daer'dd hits as hard as ferrus and vulkan. He doesn't have the raw strength value of their weapons, but has more attacks (and shred?) To compensate for that. I will agree that they are tougher though, by a reasonable amount. The biggest difference is they both can wail STR 10 ap 1 concussive at int 5 all day long. But to his Hulk esque origins situationally Daer'dd can become more dangerous if he's within 12 or 18" of a IB unit when it's destroyed he can potentially get 12 STR 9 ap 2 shred attacks plus 3 HOW hits with concussive. But he can't make a sweeping advance. And he is actually hulk so that makes sense. Although str 12 is something to chew on...hopefully not my face ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4209883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 No, not S12 lol :p 12x S9 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4209885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Ahhhh misread it;) 12 str 9 attacks then still it is hulk we are talking. About and he is always angry. By the way: how would you show the bite attack rulewise;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4209903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Beyond just having it be an extra attack conducted with its own profile at I10 or I1? Unless I can come up with something truly custom, not much, beyond what you already have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4209905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Cause in one story he ates koschei or kawils face;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4209908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Captain Redd Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Fangs and claws tear flesh and steel all the same ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4209915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 At least if you are calles Hul....Dear'dd Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4209938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted October 29, 2015 Author Share Posted October 29, 2015 I've completed one part of my review. I am removing the melta bombs and replacing Surgical Strike with Rending. Precognition will take up one of Alex's power slots, limiting him to 3 rolls. Still unsure about the Myrmidon, and my last part will be to compare Alex with the canon Primarchs and figure out an accurate point cost. With that done, canon Alex will be complete and I'll start on Warmaster Alex properly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4210526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grifftofer Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 One thought I did have with regards to Alexandros's terminator armour he gets when he is elevated to Warmaster. Rather than give him extra special rules perhaps he could just get +1 wound? That would still only bring him up to 6, which is well within the norms for a Primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4210542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphariusOmegon108 Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 how about +1 wound and a 5+ fnp? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4210546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 The Armor of the Warmaster will buff his psychic abilities. Least that's what was last decided. I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4210549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted October 29, 2015 Author Share Posted October 29, 2015 Currently, the armor gives a buff to Perils, casting range, and an anti-horde nova power. We'll see if anything is needed Athrawes 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4210557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grifftofer Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Ah. Fair enough. Must have missed that at some point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4210563 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 After reading through all of the canon Primarchs' rules, I've discovered only three of them manipulate FOC: Horus, Dorn, & Guilliman. And it's always two units, a terminator unit and one other. Usually, it's the normal terminator unit and one legion-unique terminator unit, but Horus is the weird one with the unique terminator unit and the standard veteran tactical squad as the other. Each of them are paragons of leadership in one way or another. Horus the Warmaster, Dorn the Arch-Loyalist, and Guilliman and his Imperius Secundus. Given that standard, I'm removing the Myrmidon-Infantry effect Alexandros has and reducing his points by 20 so far. Although, it may be fitting to put that back in when he becomes the Warmaster. Raktra 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4211081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Squig Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 (edited) I'm going to begin the Azus rewrite. Just for reference, here is what he used to look like: Azus Bahmut – 430 pts Primarch of the Eleventh, Ghost of the Sands, The Mad King WS: 7 BS: 7 S: 7 T: 6 W: 6 I: 7 A: 5 Ld: 10 Sv: 2+ Unit Composition: · 1 (Unique) Unit Type: · Infantry (Character) Wargear: · Armour of the Sands · Devil’s Vengeance · Anarchy · Frag, krak and smoke grenades Special Rules: · Primarch · Sire of the Dune Serpents · Ghost of the Sands · Very Bulky Warlord Trait: · Night Attacker Armour of the Sands: 2+ armour save, 4+ armour, Phantom Plate Phantom Plate: Azus still may take cover saves with the Ignores Cover special rule, and gains a 3+ invulnerable save against shooting weapons. Devil’s Vengeance: RNG: 36 S: 6 AP: 3 Assault 3 Deflagrate, Pinning, Rending Anarchy: RNG: - S: +1 AP: 2 Melee, Instant Death, Master-crafted, Duellist’s Edge Sire of the Dune Serpents: Azus and his unit gain Stealth and Deep Strike, and may charge on the turn they enter play if they do not scatter. All friendly models with the Legiones Astartes (Dune Serpents) special rule gain Stealth if they are within 12 inches of Azus. Ghost of the Sands: Once per game, at the end of the friendly turn, Azus may use this ability. This means that no enemy models may draw line of sight to him, and all enemy units within 12 inches that could draw line of sight to Azus must take a morale check as if they had just lost a combat. This ability lasts until the beginning of the next friendly turn. I'm thinking the changes will entail: - +1 BS, -1 WS, -1 S - Bulky instead of very bulky - Scimitar goes to normal power sword (maybe with rending or another special rule - Gains 4+ precision shots and snap shots at BS 3 - Can run and snap shoot - Multiple ammunition types for the rifle, one of which will be a debuffed version of its current stats, maybe another one will be one shot with firing calibration (high str low AP) either with instant death, armour bane or invulnerable save manipulation. The last one I'm not too sure about; possibly a changed version of the nerve shock rounds Widowmaker squads use. - Possibly the Lone Killer rule that moritats have, but one that allows him to be the warlord What are peoples thoughts/ideas? Edited October 30, 2015 by Big Bad Squig Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4211152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raktra Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Loving having a proper shooting Primarch about, closest the canonverse has is Ferrus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/15/#findComment-4211207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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