RULES - Primarch and Legion

[Raktra]

Make the pariah blade AP2!

[Big Bad Squig]

It already has pseudo-rending on a 5+ (which I now realize isn't actually detailed in the post  ), but do you think that's not enough?

[Raktra]

Nah, all Primarch melee weapons should be at least AP2. They're ze best around!

[Grifftofer]

The rending on a 5+ means that against fellow Primarchs 2/3 - all of his attacks will be AP2 (depending on Toughness), whereas against Marines only 40% will gain the benefit of rending. It means relatively he will be at a disadvantage against things like enemy Terminators and other 2+ save power fist armed warriors, as in order to hurt them reliably he will need to strike at the same time.  The closes parallel would be Guilliman who has both sword and fist, but his sword is AP2, so I think you'd be justified.

 

I also suggest the following:

• Giving his sword Specialist weapon too or removing it from his fist
• Giving him an archaeotech pistol so he can shoot something if he is ever not in combat
• Giving him the Weapon Mastery Rule so he can split his attacks between weapons in a single turn

[Big Bad Squig]

I've changed everything but the archaeotech pistol (it felt better to have Koschei just fighting by hand because of his background).  How much do you think his points value should increase? 

[Grifftofer]

Honestly I'm not sure it should, or at least not much. Being able to make 5 attacks is more than reasonable for a Primarch, so I don't think that is really much of an issue. Overall I think he is probably relatively on par with Guilliman, similar attacks and less army bonuses, but much greater psychic defense. However I believe that Guilliman is undercosted relative to the other Primarchs so that maybe isn't saying too much. Even taking that all into account I don't see him being more than 425 points at the most. He doesn't provide enough of an army boost, defense/endurance or anti-Primarch combat capability to really cost more than that IMO. So I would say leave him at 415, unless anyone else has any major disputes with that costing.

[Raktra]

He's good and balanced, maybe kick him up to 425 if you're unsure, but I'd have no complaints seeing that against me ^^

[Demus Ragnok]

So I'm trying to put some flesh on the bones do this heavy support squad Bluntblade created for the Fire Keepers. This is what I have thus far.

 

Maveshalak Support Squad

 

Marine stats +1BS

 

Hardened Power Armor optional Artificer armor

Volkite Charger

CCW

Heavy Bolter

 

May upgrade to

Heavy Flamer

Autocannon

Multi melta

Plasma Cannon

Volkite Culverin

Lascannon

Conversion Beamer

 

Sergeant has option to take weapon different from squad. Gains Split Fire.

 

Now what I would really like to do is give the unit one fixed special rule and let them gain different rules when they upgrade to different weapons. Alas I am all out of imagines.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Maybe some form of combined power?

 

So if everyone targets the same unit with the heavy flamer,(where all the templates overlay) str or ap or both get +1

Call it hell's heat or something like that.

[Chief Captain Redd]

Okay so approaching this logically you make sure each of the weapons' additional special rules are roughly equivalent so that can be put on the base unit opposed to weapon costs or that the weapon and special rules total cost is the same for all so you can freely exchange weapons.

 

So rough ideas for special rules Heavy Bolter Relentless, Chainfire; Heavy Flamer Shred, soul blaze; Autocannon Heavy 4, Pinning. Lascannon Sniper, precision shot. Plasma Cannon Torrent, Haywire

[Slips]

Define what you mean by Heavy Bolters having Chainfire. Do you mean they can shoot it as many times as they can until they miss? With a Heavy 3 Weapon? At BS5? Seems to me like a great way to facilitate a unit to be able to shoot indefinitely...

 

Lascannons with Sniper Doesn't really do anything for it: Its only ever going to wound on a 5+ vs T10 and is already Ap2. Precision Shots also has some overlap with Sniper.

 

Torrent only works on Template Weapons, not blast weapons. It doesn't really do anything for it in this regard.

 

I know these were rough suggestions but I think its useful info to know either way

 

+++

 

My own Personal Recommendations, if we Demus goes down this route would be:

• Heavy Bolters: Pinning, Shred
• Heavy Flamers: Torrent, Soul Blaze, Blind
• Autocannon: Tank Hunters, Relentless
• Multimelta: Heavy 2 or Small Blast, Gets Hot!
• Volkite Culverin: Twin-Linked
• Plasma Cannon: Barrage
• Lascannon: Salvo 2/1 (2 shots half range if you move, 1 shot full range if you don't)
• Conversion Beamer: Interceptor

So yeah, this is also a rough list but is how I'd go about adding something extra to the current heavy weapons.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Slipstreams

[Chief Captain Redd]

As heavy bolters should be able to ;) forgot about bs5 though.

And Torrent on the Plasma Cannon I meant would change to template to show how they're sometimes depicted as streams opposed to blasts. Otherwise I forgot about PS & Sniper I just want to see a 2+ hit PS lascannon squad.

[Slips]

As heavy bolters should be able to forgot about bs5 though.

And Torrent on the Plasma Cannon I meant would change to template to show how they're sometimes depicted as streams opposed to blasts. Otherwise I forgot about PS & Sniper I just want to see a 2+ hit PS lascannon squad.

I mean, the imagery would be cool but with Heavy Bolters being able to shoot, quite possibly, indefinitely means that Infinite Hits = Infinite Wounds = Infinite Failed Saves.

 

Gargantuan Creature with T8 only being wounded on a 6+? Infinite Hits = Infinite chances to roll enough 6+ to Wound to Insta-kill it.

 

Its the same reason why Blood Angel Moritats with Hand Flamers were straight up disallowed by Forgeworld:

• Chainfire lets you shoot your weapons as many times as possible until you miss
• Hand Flamers are Template Weapons and auto-hit
• Thus, Chainfire goes on indefinitely since there is no opportunity for a miss to occur
• Infinite Hits means Infinite Wounds
• Everything within range of the Hand Flamers that can be wounded by S3 is immediately killed because Infinite wounds.

Its not so much a Bs5 issue than it is giving a Heavy 3 Weapon Chainfire. Since all 3 of those shots need to simultaneously miss to cause the chainfire to end (with BS5, that means you need to roll 3 1s) otherwise it keeps going. So even if you miss with 2 of 3 shots, that third one hit so you keep going. At BS4 its not that bad but even then, you only need to roll a single 3+ To Hit for it to keep going.

 

You then do that for each model in a squad (aka 10 marines). And...well, you can see where this is going.

 

So, yeah, always be careful when you're considering giving a weapon that fires more than a single shot chainfire :P

[MikhalLeNoir]

So would then be a lascannon with chainfire be better although it is way stronger?

[Slips]

So would then be a lascannon with chainfire be better although it is way stronger?

Yes, because a single miss and its over. Though having a maximum chainfire hit limit like the Moritat now has (12) would probably be a good idea in this instance since we're talking Heavy Weapons, not pistols, and a 10 man squad not a single 100+ pt model.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Slipstreams

[MikhalLeNoir]

Oh gawd!!! A 10 men lascannon squad..... That is evil.

[Slips]

Oh gawd!!! A 10 men lascannon squad..... That is evil.

Now you understand why Chainfire isn't a rule to throw around without serious consideration 

Edited September 24, 2016 by Slipstreams

[MikhalLeNoir]

Gnahahah. Illuminator landspider with anvilus lascannon plus chainfire->opponent throws model at you. Pricelesa

[Doctor Perils]

A kind of chainfire given with gets hot could be interesting :)

[Grifftofer]

Yeah I think chainfire would be ok, but only if you have max of 5 man squads and mediocre-poor weapons (rotor cannons with chainfire I'd be fine with). The built in max 12 hits limits awesomeness for the Moritat, but would be too much for anything that could go up to 10 men (imagine going through each individually and then working with the potential 120 hits...).

 

The list of special rules that Slips suggested looks good from my point of view, but if you were to use the full lot I think that having a single permanent rule would be a little overkill. I also had a thought on what you could use for that rule.

• Pinpoint Accuracy: Any to-hits rolls of a 6 made with this weapon gain -1AP.

Admittedly it would be of lesser use for some weapons, but others could be much more viable with the extra potential.

 

@Lord Thorn: Unfortunately Gets Hot becomes Chainfire Gets Hot and thus means any roll of a 1 or 2 shuts the whole thing down. The combo of this and the 12 max hits means that the Moritat is neutered to nigh worthlessness, which is a great pity as In have one on my shelf just begging to be finished.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Yeah I think chainfire would be ok, but only if you have max of 5 man squads and mediocre-poor weapons (rotor cannons with chainfire I'd be fine with). The built in max 12 hits limits awesomeness for the Moritat, but would be too much for anything that could go up to 10 men (imagine going through each individually and then working with the potential 120 hits...).

 

The list of special rules that Slips suggested looks good from my point of view, but if you were to use the full lot I think that having a single permanent rule would be a little overkill. I also had a thought on what you could use for that rule.

 

• Pinpoint Accuracy: Any to-hits rolls of a 6 made with this weapon gain -1AP.

Admittedly it would be of lesser use for some weapons, but others could be much more viable with the extra potential.

 

@Lord Thorn: Unfortunately Gets Hot becomes Chainfire Gets Hot and thus means any roll of a 1 or 2 shuts the whole thing down. The combo of this and the 12 max hits means that the Moritat is neutered to nigh worthlessness, which is a great pity as In have one on my shelf just begging to be finished.

Well, couldn't you make chainfire counting for the whole squad? So you have to roll always for the whole squad and if 1 misses the chainfire comes to an end? So maybe only if the squad of 5 targets the same chainfire would be activated?

[Demus Ragnok]

So I fiddled wit these guys a bit before I got sick this past weekend.

 

Maveshalak Support Squad 180pts

 

Maveshalak WS4 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv3+

 

Sergeant WS4 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv3+

 

4 Maveshalak

1 Sergeant

 

Wargear

Power Armor

Bolt Pistol

CCW

 

Special Rules

LA: Fire Keepers

 

Masters of Destruction: Maveshalak are trained in the use of legion heavy weapons to a level far beyond any of their brethren. This allows them to use these weapons to the utmost affect in battle. When using different heavy weapons Maveshalak gain Special Rules in addition to the weapon’s usual profile.

 

Options

 

May take up to 5 additional Maveshalak for 25 points per model

 

Entire squad may take one of the following.

 

Heavy Bolter: Pinning and Shred. Free

Heavy Flamer: Torrent and Blind Free

Autocannon: Tank Hunter and Relentless. 25pts

Multi Melta: Heavy 2 or Small Blast, Gets Hot 50pts

Volkite Culverin: Twin Linked. 50pts

Plasma Cannon: Barrage 75pts

Lascannon: Salvo 2/1. 100pts

Conversion Beamer: Interceptor 125pts

 

Went with a KISS approach. Made an attempt at rolling the special rule cost for the weapons into the squad purchase/addition marine costs.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Damn. Somehow i deleted my previous post. Oh well here again:

 

We have very similar units in 4 legions: predators, wardens of light, void eagles or warbringers( i think, else corrscr me) have all hss specialists. Maybe we should post all our units and try to differentiate them more.

 

Predators rely on forbidden weapons, wardena of light can shoot twice and maybe use a jumppack, the one i can't grasp can move with their heavy weapons and shoot. And yours are a jack of all trades. Matbe limit your weapon choice a bit cuz it is hardly ti believe that they are specialist with every weapon and gain special rules with all of them.

 

I have no prob to limit the wealons to lascannons as wardens love the power of light.

 

 

 

 

======================================================================

 

Storm Blast (Heavy Support)

180 Points

 

 

 

25]WS BS S T W I A LD Sv

Storm Warrior 4 5 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+

 

Storm Leader­­ 4 5 4 4 1 4 2 9 3+

 

 

Unit Composition: 4 warriors 1 Storm Leader

Unit Type: Warriors: Infantry Storm Leader: Infantry (Character)

Wargear:

Power armor

Heavy Bolter

Bolt Pistol

Frag & Krak Grenades

Special Rules:

Legiones Astartes (Wardens of Light)

"Storm of Fire"

Battle Meditation “The Perfect Strike”

Preferred Enemy (Vehicles)

Options:

The Storm Blast may take - Up to 5 additional Warriors for +25 points each

All of the Space Marines in the squad (including the Storm Leader) may exchange their heavy bolters for one of the following other heavy weapon types.

- Autocannon for +5 points each

- Missile Launcher (with Frag & Krak missiles) for +5 points each

- Plasma Cannon for +15 points each

- Volkite Culverin for +10 points each

- Lascannon for +15 points each

- Jumppacks for +??+5 each

snap fire, but no template weapons and no storm of fire during the movement turn" maybe another malus? I reduced -1 I for the next turn? so if they were engaged in cc, they have bigger probs?

The Storm Leader may take and of the following:

- Augury scanner for +5 points

- Melta-bombs for +5 points

- Upgrade to artificer armor for +10 points

- Jumppack + ?? If the Squad has Jumppacks, the Storm Leader must buy one.

Storm of fire: A unit of Storm Blast may choose to initiate a Storm of Fire at the beginning of their shooting phase. If so, all weapons in the unit may fire twice in that turn. They may not fire their heavy weapon the turn after, as they would either be recharging or reloading.

Battle Meditation “The perfect strike”: The Storm Blast were trained to make impossible shots, which will have the enemy think twice if they want to be a target again, if they were once hit. A unit that suffers wounds from a shooting attack from the Storm Blast must pass a (T, I, Ld) test or else be unable to fire overwatch this player turn.

 

[

Edited September 29, 2016 by MikhalLeNoir

[Grifftofer]

I would agree with Mikhal that focusing on a smaller selection of weapon would be reasonable. The other thing I would look at carefully is buying the weapons as a unit, comparing these guys to the regular Heavy Squad at full size with Lascannons they will cost 30pts less and have many advantages over the regular unit. Another thing that occurred to me was that instead of making them BS5, you could give them all Artificer Armour or Master-crafted weapons, show off some of the Fire Keepers armoury over just having another Elite shooting unit.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Yo, the more defensive approach would make sense. Show the enemies of the fire keeper that they fight against the masters of defense Edited September 29, 2016 by MikhalLeNoir