Slips Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) Gwalchavad just doesn't age, but he isn't unkillable. If he is vaporized, well, then he stays vaporized. No Primarch in our newverse is a perpetual. one Minor Marine could be, but that doesn't count at the moment. How many Points is Gwal and the rest of his bunch worth? Very Quickly, just going over him and his role as more of a Fighter who doesnt buff his army immensely and doesnt have the Staying power of a Warlord Titan, I'd give a conservative ~415pts for him. Mostly since a few of his rules only affect Psykers. The Lowest I'd go is 380 with the Highest being 435. Edit: @Praefectus: Which of your Units can number 30+ Models to benefit from that specific rule? Edited August 17, 2015 by Slipstreams Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praefectus Invictus Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Gwalchavad just doesn't age, but he isn't unkillable. If he is vaporized, well, then he stays vaporized. No Primarch in our newverse is a perpetual. one Minor Marine could be, but that doesn't count at the moment. How many Points is Gwal and the rest of his bunch worth? Very Quickly, just going over him and his role as more of a Fighter who doesnt buff his army immensely and doesnt have the Staying power of a Warlord Titan, I'd give a conservative ~415pts for him. Mostly since a few of his rules only affect Psykers. The Lowest I'd go is 380 with the Highest being 435. Edit: @Praefectus: Which of your Units can number 30+ Models to benefit from that specific rule? Tactical Squads, Breachers and Assault Marines if I'm not mistaken? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grifftofer Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Unfortuantely they can only go up as far as 20 marines. Which is the largest any squads can get to in the Heresy, that I have seen at least. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praefectus Invictus Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) I could've sworn they went to 30... I have been lied to? (Goes off to check his books for confirmation.) EDIT: yep, You're right. This changes things lol. Edited August 17, 2015 by Praefectus Invictus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 I could've sworn they went to 30... I have been lied to? (Goes off to check his books for confirmation.) EDIT: yep, You're right. This changes things lol. Just turn the rule into 40k's Combat Squad and let it affect any unit which can number 20+ Models. Done and Done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praefectus Invictus Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 I could've sworn they went to 30... I have been lied to? (Goes off to check his books for confirmation.) EDIT: yep, You're right. This changes things lol. Just turn the rule into 40k's Combat Squad and let it affect any unit which can number 20+ Models. Done and Done. Done it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Hmmm, which buffs could I implement....Power of Light, every warden in sight of Gwal is infused with the power of light and therefore happy^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Hmmm, which buffs could I implement....Power of Light, every warden in sight of Gwal is infused with the power of light and therefore happy^^ Why? Hes not bad per say and not every Primarch should be 450-500 points :P If you wanted to buff him a bit, for the "Eight Gates" special Rule, you could let him Gain +1A for every 2 Wounds he's missing but have it be affected by IWND recuperation. Meaning that, if he's lost 4 Wounds and thus has +2A, if he succeeds on his IWND, he'd be at 3 Wounds lost and only +1A. Coupled with his Initiative Ramp and hes already pretty strong. Coupled with Rampage and Counter-Attack hes pretty much always going to have more attacks than his Opponent. I've yet to really see a strong case for a WS9 Primarch (The only one is Angron in the Canon) but, since he's so combat focused WS8 wouldnt do amiss as long as we dont have too many WS8 Primarchs Already. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praefectus Invictus Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Afaik only Jackel and Hectarion have WS8, I think Raktra may have it but not too sure who else Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) Oh, this was a joke^^ Hmm, the attack rule is not so bad. would it add to the +WS? So let's check if I got it right: Outdated rules WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Gwalchavad 7 5 6 6 6 5 6 10 2+ Unit Composition 1 (Unique)Unit TypeJump Infantry (Character)WargearMask "mwgwd ddi-rym" Tonfas/Ellbowblades "Grandfather" & "Peacekeeper" Armour "trealamh gréine" Hidden Blade Jump Pack Frag grenades Special RulesPrimarch (Independent Character, Eternal Warrior, Fear, Adamantium Will, Fleet, Fearless, It Will Not Die, Master of the Legion) Sire of the Wardens of Light Wisdom of Ages Very Bulky Battle Meditation "The Eight Gates" SPECIAL RULESSire of the Wardens of Light All models with the Legion Astartes: Wardens of Light (LA:WoL) special rule gain +1 Ld (to a maximum of 10). Any unit with the LA:WoL special rule gain +1 to their Combat resolution results as long as they are within line of sight of Gwalchavad. Wisdom of AgesGwalchavad always allows his foes to strike first, in order to better judge their fighting ability and see their true intent. Gwalchavad gains +1 I per Round. This effect starts in Round 3. And cannot increase over I 8. So he has in round 1,2 I5->Round 3 : I6->Round 4: I7 and in Round 5,6: I 8. Battle Meditation "The Eight Gates" When Gwalchavad met an Enemy who could best him, he performs the Battle Meditation "Eight Gates". He focus entirly on the battle and releases the hidden powers which sleep deep within. Gwalchavad gains WS + 1 if his Live points/ Wounds are reduced by half. Additionaly Gwal gets for every Two wounds taken +1 A if he passes his Leadershiptest. +1A on 2,3 wounds, +2 A on 4,5 wounds plus 3 on 6 wounds, but if he ever reaches this point, he is death That means in ROund 5, if he has taken 4 wounds his profil looks like that WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Gwalchavad 8 5 6 6 2 8 8 10 2+ Right? Seems a bit strong. okay, his round 2 profile without wounds would look like that 7 5 6 6 6 5 6 10 2+ Edited October 25, 2015 by MikhalLeNoir Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Only way to find out would be to test him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grifftofer Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 I'm not sure if he really needs the extra attacks. He already had 6 + charge/counterattack + rampage. So he can already get up to 10 in the first round, which is really quite a lot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) Might be the case. Did I understood your suggestion the right way? or did you mean to increase the ws in the base and the ws bonus is removed in favor for the attackbonus in the eight gates rule? I don't have so many dices^^ How about the democratic way: Leave him as he is Buff him more (Attack Rule plus, WS increase) Gosh he is a star killer, kill him off immediatley HE IS SO WEAK, HE SHOULD RIVAL A GOD I like the rules as they are. he is not too fancy, has those cool rules to power him up. only ws 7/8 i really consider, but if he is hurt, he has ws 8 anyway Edited August 17, 2015 by MikhalLeNoir Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) WS suggestion was base Weapon Skill with him no longer gaining a benefit for loosing wounds or, instead, increasing only when he has 2 Wounds Remaining. WS9 at 2 wounds means that, while hes harder to hit and its easier for him to hit, hes still close enough to death for you to just finish him off. Could also tie it to the wound Regeneration of IWND. Go back up to 3 Wounds, -1WS. Didn't consider Rampage Bonus when making the Attack Rule; though its not like hes hes hitting ultra hard since hes only ever going to swing at S6, 7 At most. Him making up for it with volume of attacks seems a bit fair though 10 is a lot. 8 would be the Hard Cap, in this regard. Considering all this, I'd lower his Initiative Bonus to a maximum of 7 in this regard since only Fulgrim is at 8, iirc, with Angron and most of the other 'Fast' Primarchs only being 7 as well. In this case, the majority of Primarchs are also only at Initiative 5. Lorgar has 6 with Corax, Curze and Angron being at 7 with Fulgrim at 8. All things to consider. Voting wise, I'm Ambivalent Edited August 17, 2015 by Slipstreams Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 WS suggestion was base Weapon Skill with him no longer gaining a benefit for loosing wounds or, instead, increasing only when he has 2 Wounds Remaining. WS9 at 2 wounds means that, while hes harder to hit and its easier for him to hit, hes still close enough to death for you to just finish him off. Could also tie it to the wound Regeneration of IWND. Go back up to 3 Wounds, -1WS. Didn't consider Rampage Bonus when making the Attack Rule; though its not like hes hes hitting ultra hard since hes only ever going to swing at S6, 7 At most. Him making up for it with volume of attacks seems a bit fair though 10 is a lot. 8 would be the Hard Cap, in this regard. Considering all this, I'd lower his Initiative Bonus to a maximum of 7 in this regard since only Fulgrim is at 8, iirc, with Angron and most of the other 'Fast' Primarchs only being 7 as well. In this case, the majority of Primarchs are also only at Initiative 5. Lorgar has 6 with Corax, Curze and Angron being at 7 with Fulgrim at 8. All things to consider. Voting wise, I'm Ambivalent That is like futurerama: "I hate these filthy Neutrals, Kif. With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals, who knows? It sickens me." Speed,Flow and analysing the enemy are the Keypoint in Gwalchavads Fighting Style. So we thought a lots of attacks and an increasing I over the time which goes to 8 in the last rounds would resemble that the best. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 As long as he doesnt suddenly gain s10 attacks outta nowhere, Im fine with him right now. Afterall, hes still only wounding Pionus on 4+ or worse unless he rends and still has to get through a 3+ invuln, 4+fnp and IWND :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) Ahh, I've come up with a special rule^^ "Expert for taking down pionius" Kills him with one look^^ Do you want to playtest both? Edited August 17, 2015 by MikhalLeNoir Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) Damn! stares from people! My only weakness! Ill give it a shot when I wake up :p Edited August 17, 2015 by Slipstreams Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148825 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grifftofer Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Hehe. Sounds like a good rule. I'm mostly of the opinion that he is good as he is, but I would be :P Also I keep forgetting his Hidden Blade strike. It may not do too much damage, but it does have the potential. Going to work out some average combats between the Primarch when I get back, should give me a better idea of where people stand in relation to one another. Will use the existing Primarch too for comparison. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Gwalchavad was hidden in the twilight movies: stares, even more stares. and now he stares upon Pionus. Hehe,Gwal is staring forward to it. I am eager to see the primarch battles. doesn't have much time myself. Just don't forget the stares. I hope Gwal is doing well, if he survives the first rounds^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Well see. Pionus only ever hits hard on the Charge due to D3 Hammer of Wrath and 5 S8 attacks. After that, all he can hope for is to Grind you down with 4 S8 attacks at his initiative and Weather the Storm. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 As I know the universe, Gwal is disembolwed right in the beginning^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148835 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 As I know the universe, Gwal is disembolwed right in the beginning^^ Hmm well see. Its still a hard-ish test to fail and unless you fail it consistently, it shouldnt pose much of a problem. Then again, the dice gods are fickle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund229 Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Having tested Pionius against Hectarion, most primarchs are gonna survive a charge by Pionius relatively unscathed. Slips 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) But Hectarion is a beast,Gwal doesn't have the good looks and the favor of the dice gods^^Will be something like Monthy Pythons Holy Grail Black Knight vs Arthur^^ But Gwal can still stare at Pionus. After 1000 rounds of battle, the stare is there. Edited August 17, 2015 by MikhalLeNoir Big Bad Squig 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312431-rules-primarch-and-legion/page/3/#findComment-4148843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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