IL XVI - The Drowned

[Hesh Kadesh]

One of the last revisions made to him was that he had Independent character and MotL. And there is the same respect there as there was when those who replaced the WIP Morro with something that resembled nothing like what had been written before. Equally polite.

 

Regarding costs: Special Issue Ammunition for 20pts, how is that worked out? How is it 27+pts for a Master Crafted Relentless Boltgun with Special Ammunition, but 15pts for a Plasma Pistol which would do more? The giving of Relentless is so that the Boltgun actually can do something other than pook pretty. When was the last time anyone fired Alexis Polux's Boltgun. The Meltagun, sure, but the Boltgun is otherwise abpointless weapon that adds nothing to the lethality. Please review whatever matrix you are using to represent the maths involved.

 

The reroll of invulnerable saves on a Primarch combined with a Primarchs resilience is a major difference between why one may have been considered too much. It was not too much of Lugft Huron, which is where it was lifted from.

 

Hennasohn's profile looks like WS7, S6, I7, A4 with Poltergeist. The 'weak' limitation is a WIP that has stemmed from the fact I have absolutley no idea what the Pariah rules are, and need a unified ruleset for that for me to include that within, and Psykers are also common enough to mitigate the statline directly.

 

If I was to create a Unique Psychic Power which had those effects to represent the ability to control the blades better than if he was using them in his hands, it would look largely like he already does, except there would be a negligible cost of a Charge Cost, which then boils down to 'lets give him this unique trait and have it entirely forgotten and ignored when he needs to cast spells'. It is why he is mastery 2, and not Mastery 3 like previous incarnations of his rules.

 

Put him up against a Mastery 2 Psyker, and he is not much more dangerous in an assault than a White Scars Sergeant. Even a Mastery 1 Psyker would invariably make a standard Paragon Praetor a better option to take him down due to the different in points costs AND that it can be more lethal due to having a 2 additional attacks potentially and a better Invulnerable Save for cheaper cost.

[helterskelter]

Decisions get collectively made in your absence.

If you want your vision stuck to more closely I would ask you to start PM'ing me or engaging with me here or on discord (mobile or otherwise).

Entirely up to you of course, or if you want full control of the Legion returned to you say so and I'll step away

[Hesh Kadesh]

I've not recieved one message from yourself.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Uhm. I don't want to offend anybody, but weren't you absent for a long time and helter took over? Wouldn't it be then appropriate to ask him what he changed during your absence?

[helterskelter]

I've not recieved one message from yourself.

If you want to play Mexican stand-off that's fine I can do this :cuss all day,

However if you want to work together and make the Drowned awesome, balanced and all the good things, let's not get into handbags at dawn and start working now

[Hesh Kadesh]

At what stage of 'lets make this awesome and balanced' means completely removing any sort of resemblance to previous concepts?

 

@Mikhal, Those changes to Morro have happened in the time since I have been active, and within having made changes to Morro personally on the AU rules hub. I've been active on B&C most days, and links direct to this forum, before I check the AoD forum for discussions.

 

You can accuse me of not getting in contact, whuch is true - I didn't get in contact every week just in case you wanted to completely remove all resemblance save the name. Do you want me to gove you message next week, just to make sure thst you're still okay with how the Drowned's Legiones Astartes rules are operating?

 

In return, it's not as though you even attempted to get in touch to see if I was okay with what you were doing.

 

In which case, if it's not clear, with regards to Morro at least, is a categorical :cuss no.

[helterskelter]

Right then, Morro, what's the issue vs yours?

Is it the corax/curze equivalent statline which is indicative of a swift primarch? If you'd prefer a touch more fulgrim perhaps?

The shotel named for a greek fate who cuts the threads of life in keeping with the Greek themes you have and with a rule helping define how much of a delight Morro is?

Is it the modified Dark Eldar sidearm?

Is it the rules reflecting the drowneds relationship with watery Horror?

We have 2 rulesets to work with neither set in stone. Let's mix and match

[simison]

One of the last revisions made to him was that he had Independent character and MotL. And there is the same respect there as there was when those who replaced the WIP Morro with something that resembled nothing like what had been written before. Equally polite.

 

Regarding costs: Special Issue Ammunition for 20pts, how is that worked out? How is it 27+pts for a Master Crafted Relentless Boltgun with Special Ammunition, but 15pts for a Plasma Pistol which would do more? The giving of Relentless is so that the Boltgun actually can do something other than pook pretty. When was the last time anyone fired Alexis Polux's Boltgun. The Meltagun, sure, but the Boltgun is otherwise abpointless weapon that adds nothing to the lethality. Please review whatever matrix you are using to represent the maths involved.

 

The reroll of invulnerable saves on a Primarch combined with a Primarchs resilience is a major difference between why one may have been considered too much. It was not too much of Lugft Huron, which is where it was lifted from.

 

Hennasohn's profile looks like WS7, S6, I7, A4 with Poltergeist. The 'weak' limitation is a WIP that has stemmed from the fact I have absolutley no idea what the Pariah rules are, and need a unified ruleset for that for me to include that within, and Psykers are also common enough to mitigate the statline directly.

 

If I was to create a Unique Psychic Power which had those effects to represent the ability to control the blades better than if he was using them in his hands, it would look largely like he already does, except there would be a negligible cost of a Charge Cost, which then boils down to 'lets give him this unique trait and have it entirely forgotten and ignored when he needs to cast spells'. It is why he is mastery 2, and not Mastery 3 like previous incarnations of his rules.

 

Put him up against a Mastery 2 Psyker, and he is not much more dangerous in an assault than a White Scars Sergeant. Even a Mastery 1 Psyker would invariably make a standard Paragon Praetor a better option to take him down due to the different in points costs AND that it can be more lethal due to having a 2 additional attacks potentially and a better Invulnerable Save for cheaper cost.

 

• I believe the Special Issue Ammo price tag came from an analysis of the Seeker squad, vaguely 5 points per ammo type. And define 'more'. You have a gun that can use one of four different profiles with a reroll to shoot (Master-crafted priced at 5 points), and completely ignores its weapon type (I price Relentless at 20 points). Henna's gun does a lot more than a plasma pistol.
• "The giving of Relentless is so that the Boltgun actually can do something other than look pretty." And this is my current problem with Hennasohn. Polux is undoubtedly a melee fighter. The combi-melta is only to give him a little more utility and it works in conjunction with Polux's desire to get into melee. Hennasohn, however, has been given so much crap that his role is confused or too broad.
• The forced invul rerolls is incredibly potent power, regardless who it is given too. I will not deny that it exists in canon, but it must be treated with extreme care and used rarely. Why should I allow Hennasohn to have this ability when, in 30k, only Sigismund, the mini-Primarch, has it (and then only in challenges)?
• And if no one brings a psyker, Hennasohn is given a Warp ability that is more potent than either Iron Arm or Warp Speed, and that's on top of three powers already. And let me reiterate, this is a power that ignores an entire sub-system of the game that it's supposed to function under. (On a minor note, there is no Warp power that improves WS, so that's another concern.) 

 

Okay, as it stands, Hennasohn has three Mary Sue flags. Uber gun that has Special Issue Ammo, despite him not having any affiliation with the Seekers. A sword that forces rerolled invul saves. And the Poltergheist ability. 

 

Actually, checking my last post, you didn't even answer as to why Hennasohn has Special Issue Ammo. 

 

So, somethings need to be revised or eliminated. I will only allow the Poltergheist ability if Hennasohn has no other powers. The fluff will be that he's constantly channeling Warp energy  and doesn't have the concentration to do anything else. Or lose the Poltergheist ability. I'm in favor of it because it is interesting and unique, so I'd rather see him lose the standard abilities. 

[Grifftofer]

I care nothing for how Morro has been currently changed. I don't mind for toning down what has been written, but it shares no resemblance to anything he was invisaged as.

 

First up I would like to say that its entirely my fault that the changes were made and in such an abrupt manner. The intention was never to overwrite the existing ruleset, but to simply provide a more 'normalised' version of his rules that could reflect him before all the changes were wrought upon him. In hindsight it was a mistake to do so on the existing document, but I have reverted those changes and made a separate doc for the earlier incarnation, as I should have done in the first place. I would like to apologise for any implied insult you may have taken from the decision, but I would say that it certainly wasn't intentional.

 

However, I think it would be disingenuous to suggest we attempted to pervert the character's essence. If I were to break down the majority of the rules that Morro has as it stands tie directly to the abilities that he gains after his augmentation by Urien. Impure Prince and Krakengrasp are explicitly linked to his augmentation, the Agoniser Tendrils are likewise inextricable. The Deeping Plate was written to be as it is as a balance to his other abilities being what they are. And his Sire rule currently is just over the top, he gives two special rules and two conditional special rules to all the Drowned models. Individually any of those rules would be worthy of most Primarchs' Sire ability, in combination...

 

In any case I will stop there as I truly want this to be a discussion. If you have issues with the suggested Late Crusade Morro I would like to hear them. As although I believe they are well reasoned and justifiable based on what I know of Morro, I would never want to suggest I know everything about even half of the things we have going on in the BotL.

[simison]

Sorrowsworn Morro

 

Comparison Base: Angron (400 points)

 

Attributes

 

• -1 WS: (-5) points
  
• -1 S: (-10) points
  
• +1 W: 10 points
  
• -2 A: (-10) points
  

 

Total: (-15) points

 

Wargear

 

• Agoniser Tendrils vs Gorechild & Gorefather: (-10 for S) + (Armourbane = Fleshbane) + (5 for Flurry vs Murderous Strike) + (15 for Wracking Torment) = 10 points
  
• Ferryman's Toll vs The Spite Furnace (20): (Base Weapon: 10 + Blast: 5 + Shred: 20 + Rending: 15) = 30 points
  
• Deeping Plate vs Armour of Mars: 20 points
  
• Plasma & Rad Grenades:  10 points
  

 

Total: 50 points

 

Special Rules

• Sire versus Sire: ((Move through Cover (20) & Night Vision (10) - Furious Charge (10) & FNP  [6+] (5) =  15 points)) + (Forced Consolidation: 10 points) + (Immunity to Fear (10) & Conditional Preferred Enemy (5) vs Conditional Fearless (5) = 35 points
  
• Krakengrasp vs The Butcher's Nails: (-5) points
  
• Impure Prince vs Red Sands: (-30) points
  

 

Total: 0 points

 

Total cost: 35 points

 

Recommend overall cost: 435 points

 

Notes: 

 

• I'm calculating Impure Prince at (-20) points and Red Sands as a 10-point ability
  
• I assigned 15 points for the Butcher's Nails and Krakengrasp as 10 points. The latter is fairly cheap because of forced challenges and marines have an advantage against Strength checks and it's only a D3 penalty to attacks. 
  

[Beren]

The Charonic Seekers

 

The Charonic Seekers date back to the days of the early Great Crusade when the Sixteenth and Tenth Legions fought alongside one another upon a regular basis. While the special operations units that would later be designated Legion Seeker Squads were gaining favour amongst the rest of the Astartes the two Legions found them sorely lacking. Against the preferred foes of both Legions the Seeker squads lacked both the durability and the firepower to destroy high priority targets on a regular basis. Instead both forces cooperated upon the formation of specialist terminator units to fulfil a similar tactical niche. Typical Seekers relied upon stealth and mobility to reach their targets; these units relied upon Dreadclaw drop pods to deliver them, overwhelming firepower to kill the target and their stout armour to survive long enough for extraction. Amongs the Tenth they were known as the Stormwall. For the Drowned they were the Charonic Seekers.

 

While the Fire Keepers would later reform theirs into the Stormwall Assault Division, the Drowned would continue to refine them as independent units over the course of the Great Crusade’s bloody wars. Specialised weaponry increased the brutal impact of these ‘shock-assassins’ and teleport homers began replaced the traditional Dreadclaw delivery method. When the Sixteenth gained access to Tartaros Pattern Terminator armour the Charonic Seekers were the first to have their lumbering Cataphracti plate replaced. The increased mobility of the more advanced variant allowed them to both close on their targets with greater speed and to hound new prey afterwards. By the time of the Insurrection they had developed into a tool that proved lethal when well applied.

 

More than one battle against the Drowned Men was lost when a teleport flare heralded the arrival of the Charonic Seekers. Officers would be torn apart by withering hails of firepower. Mauled survivors would be mercilessly slaughtered. Only then would the Charonic Seekers move on to savage weak points and support their comrades.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Beren

[simison]

Saved from Discord:

 

Right then, dour, generally merciless, despising weakness, unfriendly, can manage being civil, cross legion bonds are more professional in the main with a few exceptions. Monarchs: Herod, Tethys, Erinyes (make his guy particularly distasteful), Nix, Bolete, Vinkanzo Praxos (this is a friendlier dude, uncharacteristically so) Officers: Morel, Agaricus, Chant, Karradinus, Aavakato Line: Sellarinus (with praxos), Kharlohf, Khalid, Gharis, Ricktor, jonlikon.

 

Standard legion markings, no flourishes Greetings can be kept minimal, nods, warrior grips, hand on breastplate, none of the well met stuff just "Brother" Curses: I will see you face down/ you'll float well/float well Sayings: Down the River once more@ (going into battle) By him alone we're judged (in reference to if anyone points out fault/flaws, him being Morro) I'm trying desperately not to go too deep with horror references

 

I'm going to use Bolete for the next Second Son post.

[Beren]

Malacost Hazard Squad

 

While the Drowned possessed an ample number of Legion Veteran Squads, their resource-sparce early years and environmental specialisation would give rise to their own variant. Forgoing some weapons typical of other Legion's veterans they instead chose those that would ensure their survival against the foes they faced in the depths of alien oceans. After the discovery of their Prinarch these units would be formalized as the Malacost Hazard Squads.

 

Drawn from veterans of truth-tellers, those wars considered most bloody by the XVIth, each member of the Malacost was so accustomed to the lightless depths that they preferred it to the surface. A scant number of their brothers in the Scions Hospitalier would quip that if the Hazard Squads found themselves in clear water, the Drowned veterans would resolve to block out the light with the blood of their foes.

 

Shunning vehicles even more than the rest of the Legion, these units delighted in ambushing benthic transports and cutting open submerged facilities. They would watch as the air streamed out of the breaches they had made and as the inhabitants slowly drowned. Their hardest battles were against those monsters born to the ocean and adapted to the ways. It was these which saw a steady stream of veterans to replace their casualties. But amongst the soldiers of the Imperium there were no such beasts, and these dour warriors would walk amongst the wreckage of many Loyalist constructs before the Insurrection ended.

[Beren]

Rewritten version of Hesh's fluff for the Rimeshattter relic. Edited to remove direct naming of the Lost Primarchs.

 

Rimeshatter is a unique weapon loaded with powerful, almost lost technology, codified as Helfrost Weaponry. Although the Drowned do not declare its history, many claim that it originated not with the artificers of the XVIth. Where the Drowned bore this trophy it roused the ire of their brothers in the IIIrd and VIth, and the Drowned Mens' champions took a cruel delight in goading their brothers with its place in their armouries.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Beren

[simison]

Grouping together the bits and bobs I currently have for Morro's rules and wargear:

 

Sorrowsworn Morro

Master of the Drowned, the Copper Prince, the Impure

A caustic presence in the brotherhood of Primarchs, Morro only escaped censure by his gift for waging war in the most inhospitable climates. As sinister as Raktra of the VIIth, he was yet more capricious, beholden to no code but what he saw as the laws of survival. A longing for greater power and resentment at his disfigurement by a brother Primarch drove him to stray far beyond the bounds of Imperial law and morality. Behind the taciturn facade of the XVIth Legion his ambition ran rampant, leading them into gene-meddling and a hunt for tainted xenos weaponry. In joining Icarion, Morro secured the freedom to pursue still darker goals, shackling his dark soul ever more to the Ruinous Powers.

 

Agoniser Tendrils

At the beginning of their macabre evolution, the Tendrils were a pair of multiple-tailed and savagely bladed whips, over which Morro’s implants leant him preternatural control. It is theorised that Uriel Rakarth had a hand in their design, as they epitomised cruelty in the way that the Dark Eldar have made a hallmark of their weapons. Nontheless, the Tendrils were a more potent set of weapons than perhaps any wielded by that race.

 

The Deeping Plate

Based on the armour fashioned for Morro on Feneos, the Deeping Plate integrated Martian power armour technology with the brute utilitarianism and archeotech that had protected Morro against the worst hazards of his homeworld. Morro was never satisfied with his raiment, and it was continuously overhauled to endure the ravages of both ocean and void.

 

 

I passed these onto Grifft while adding "(once the xenos influence was discovered)" to Morro's fluff paragraph. Still need a quote and fluff for the Ferryman's Toll. Doesn't look like special rules (such as Sire) get a fluff paragraph. 

[bluntblade]

I'll try and rustle that up tomorrow

[simison]

Rewritten version of Hesh's fluff for the Rimeshattter relic. Edited to remove direct naming of the Lost Primarchs.

 

Rimeshatter is a unique weapon loaded with powerful, almost lost technology, codified as Helfrost Weaponry. Although the Drowned do not declare its history, many claim that it originated not with the artificers of the XVIth. Where the Drowned bore this trophy it roused the ire of their brothers in the IIIrd and VIth, and the Drowned Mens' champions took a cruel delight in goading their brothers with its place in their armouries.

 

Submitted to Grifft.

[simison]

Malacost Hazard Squad

 

While the Drowned possessed an ample number of Legion Veteran Squads, their resource-sparce early years and environmental specialisation would give rise to their own variant. Forgoing some weapons typical of other Legion's veterans they instead chose those that would ensure their survival against the foes they faced in the depths of alien oceans. After the discovery of their [Primarch] these units would be formalized as the Malacost Hazard Squads.

Drawn from veterans of truth-tellers, those wars considered most bloody by the XVIth, each member of the Malacost was so accustomed to the lightless depths that they preferred it to the surface. A scant number of their brothers in the Scions Hospitalier would quip that if the Hazard Squads found themselves in clear water, the Drowned veterans would resolve to block out the light with the blood of their foes.

Shunning vehicles even more than the rest of the Legion, these units delighted in ambushing benthic transports and cutting open submerged facilities. They would watch as the air streamed out of the breaches they had made and as the inhabitants slowly drowned. Their hardest battles were against those monsters born to the ocean and adapted to [its] ways. It was these which saw a steady stream of veterans to replace their casualties. But amongst the soldiers of the Imperium there were no such beasts, and these dour warriors would walk amongst the wreckage of many Loyalist constructs before the Insurrection ended.

 

 

 

~~~~

 

Pointed out the couple of errors for your edification. Nice and meaty otherwise. Passed onto Grifft.

[bluntblade]

(Snip) Edited June 21, 2019 by bluntblade

[Nomus Sardauk]

Maybe craft the helm to look like a Kraken, Lokhir Fellheart style?

[Beren]

Isn't there a description of the mark IV armour Icarion gifted to them somewhere? Maybe in the old Untarra fluff?

 

Found it, not much on aesthetics through.

"

To this end, the Drowned were armoured entirely in reinforced and void hardened mkIV plate, a gift from the Lord of the Mechanicus, the traitor Kelbor Hal. While it was hardened in the same manor as the mkIII plate that was more common in actions fought in a void or in the murky deeps. While the armour had been in development for decades, designed as a replacement for the clunky and aging suits of mkIII armour many void specialists were forced to use, the only legion to receive a significant number of the suits were the Drowned(a benefit of their allegiance to Icarion). Included within the suits, in addition to extra mobility due to using the mkIV chassis rather than mkIII, were numerous features specifically designed for war under the waves, such as devices referred to by the Drowned as “gills” which enabled the suits to extract breathable oxygen from the water around them when activated and, although a major drain on power, this would allow the Drowned to fight for longer in an underwater environment. "

Edited December 24, 2018 by Beren

[bluntblade]

Victarion Greyjoy style?

[Algrim Whitefang]

A Drowned Legionary in 'Mamao' pattern Power Armour.

[bluntblade]

Updated, and now with a picture courtesy of Iron Hands Fanatic:

XVIth Legion Praetor
Yarlath Keelsplitter
Ayatollah of the Twelfth Tendril, the Thrall-Taker
The Perfidy of Untara, Star Fort Aphron



Yarlath was an old and callous warlord, one of Morro's Styxian lieutenants who underwent a late Ascension in spite of the hazards involved. He was known for retaining an unusually large body of mortal thrall-soldiers, ruling them in the same unforgiving manner as he had on Feneos. Those who failed or defied him he executed in person, with the same thunder hammer he carried into battle. Throughout the Crusade he remained an enthusiastic taker of slaves, partly to ensure the loyalty of the Mechanicum sects he sponsored and also to earn the favour of his Primarch, as many were given to the Apothecarion.

Imperial records place the Twelfth Tendril among the vast Kelyfos which Sorrowsworn Morro gathered about himself from 974. M30 onwards. Thus they participated in several of the Drowned’s most notorious engagements in the Great Crusade, as well a number of their greatest victories. Their position ensured that Morro would call upon Keelsplitter’s service for the ambush at Untara, and by this stage the Ayatollah had grown fanatically loyal to his master. Furthermore captured data-cores have revealed Yarlath’s willing furtherance of Morro’s scientific heresies, and fragmentary evidence suggests that his Tendril was the first to commit Forlorn to battle against the Scions Hospitalier. These he led personally; having grown to resent the Scions immensely, he utterly disdained the notion of commanding from his grand cruiser, the Call of the Depths.

In terms of aesthetics, Yarlath here conforms to XVIth Legion convention, clad in a divergent pattern of Mk IV power amour. Heavily artificered by the Magos which the Drowned sheltered from Martian oversight, the “Mamao” pattern was known that integrate advanced systems even by the standards of Mk IV armour. It also boasts void-hardening features, doubling as protection for aquatic deployments, and auxiliary tanks and valves associated with the combat-stims that the Drowned had begun to use. Also of note is the stylised kraken on his greave, which regularly supplanted the Imperial Aquila on the wargear of Ayatollahs during the Crusade, and became ubiquitous with the advent of the Insurrection.

Edited April 28, 2019 by bluntblade

[LurkerInTheLight]

Does anyone have the up to date rules for Hennasohn, I really like the idea of basically Space Magneto, and kinda want to do a dual scene or something I dunno