Paikis Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 At first (and second) glance this looks like the case. Is there something I'm missing, because I love how they look and would like a good reason to field them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Yes, in the same way that an assault marine is a bad vanguard veteran. The VV are slightly cheaper, and get access to storm shields and melta bombs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4157176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Similar beast, different prey. Where the DC are your wrecking ball the Vanguard are your scalpel. The DC are very scary to an opponent and will attract attention and take most of it with the FNP, ignoring most small arms fire. The Vanguard however are your back line and monster hunters. Between multicharges with no penalties, Shields and Melta bombs you can take on a good chunk of your opponents army and he won't expect it, as they are just slightly fancy Marines. They also do well without Jump packs in an assault vehicle with a character like Corbulo or Mephiston attached! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4157228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grazcruzk Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Ignoring the effects of disordered charges could come in handy, but situational for sure. Depending on your setup, if you had a way to get them Rage or even just keeping Furious Charge and The Red Thirst if you're using the Baal Strike Force. Again it's probably not every game you're going to multi-charge, but you 'could' do things like split up your s5 i5 power swords between two combat squad sized enemy units instead of going completely overkill on one squad. I remember in a previous thread about VV someone said something like: If DC are the hammer, VV are the scalpel. I think that's a good way of thinking of it. aww charlo beat me to it! Well said! Don't forget Malakim Phoros as an option without jump packs. I feel like he was made for that unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4157247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 If you can manage to roll unleash rage on our psychic discipline the Vanguard can get rage too! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4157265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Mike Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I always thought that VV filled a niche with their access to Storm Shields. If my Blood Angels army ever gets big enough, I'd probably load them up with jump packs, thunder hammers and storm shields. Kinda pricey, but only 7 more points more than than a TH+SS terminator, so take that for what you will. EDIT: I take that back, it's 62 points for a VV w/JP, SS, TH compared to 45 points for an assault terminator w/TH+SS. Doesn't seem like a very good idea anymore :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4157350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LutherMax Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I had such awesome modelling / painting ideas for Van Vets *wails uncontrollably* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4157407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I always thought that VV filled a niche with their access to Storm Shields. If my Blood Angels army ever gets big enough, I'd probably load them up with jump packs, thunder hammers and storm shields. Kinda pricey, but only 7 more points more than than a TH+SS terminator, so take that for what you will. EDIT: I take that back, it's 62 points for a VV w/JP, SS, TH compared to 45 points for an assault terminator w/TH+SS. Doesn't seem like a very good idea anymore Or, you know, 45pts for a van vet with jump pack, storm shield and lightening claw... the same as the TH/SS termie. And you dont have to equip them all with special weapons, you can have some at 32 pts with shields and some at 37 pts. Obviously, if you try and equip them identically to a different unit's base equipment, they will be more expensive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4157416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun03 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 They shine when taking in the formation with free power weapons. It rack up the cost bit give them all shields and combat sq them. Now you 20 SS/pw dropping in and take on 4 different targets. it would be broken if they could assault the turn they arrive. Taking them with out JP putting them in pimp out ride is great option even a the humble rhino can slip under the radar when bigger threats are on the table. Like every ones said there different tool than the DC, but they sync up and work well together. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4157827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Angelus Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 They shine when taking in the formation with free power weapons. It rack up the cost bit give them all shields and combat sq them. Now you 20 SS/pw dropping in and take on 4 different targets. it would be broken if they could assault the turn they arrive.Like, combining it with the Angel's fury spearhead strike force... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4157845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 They shine when taking in the formation with free power weapons. It rack up the cost bit give them all shields and combat sq them. Now you 20 SS/pw dropping in and take on 4 different targets. it would be broken if they could assault the turn they arrive.Like, combining it with the Angel's fury spearhead strike force... 4 Ravens, 60 Marines. So so great. If I had 4 Ravens I'd run this all the time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4157923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorre Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Vanguard vets in a pod with loads of power weapons and melta bombs! When used with the first turn assault storm raven formation is brutal!! You can multi charge and really lay the smacketh down, takeing out vehicles and elite troops!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4157963 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun03 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 They shine when taking in the formation with free power weapons. It rack up the cost bit give them all shields and combat sq them. Now you 20 SS/pw dropping in and take on 4 different targets. it would be broken if they could assault the turn they arrive.Like, combining it with the Angel's fury spearhead strike force...4 Ravens, 60 Marines. So so great. If I had 4 Ravens I'd run this all the time.Its almost impossible to fit all that in to stander game list. I been exploring ways to fit. Sadly I do own 4 Ravens. :cuss bro we kinda stole your tread, apologies for getting off topic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4157989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I'd say it's relevant still, finding ways to use them in leiu of DC or with is good discussion! As for using both the formations, I'd say it's possibly doable at 2k... 4 Ravens are 800, 3 Tacs with a few upgrades are 500, then I know the 3 vet squads come to about 650 Base, but you get the upgrades included. Still battleforged and leaves some points for Shields I imagine. Combat squadding goes a long way too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4157994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paikis Posted August 28, 2015 Author Share Posted August 28, 2015 One use I have found with my google-fu, which is more mind-games than anything else, was to use the DC as a distraction, while the VVs just kind of sneak up and wreck something important. Most people will focus the Death Company because they're so good. So I guess that's one possible use for them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4158041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderer Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I like the idea of using VV, equipped with storm shields, with sanguinary priest, chaplain and Librarius conclave on bikes or JP using sanctic daemonology. There's a fair chance of getting sanctuary for boosting their save to 2++ while retaining mobility. Now that's real flying terminators! Chapter tactics of librarians will be either WS for hit and run or IH for 4+ fnp.I could use vanilla VV but they won't get FC, red thirst and +1 ws so in this case it doesn't seem so bad to pay extra. Alternatively this unit could be delivered with a drop pod, storm raven or a land raider. Then you can swap priest for Corbulo and maybe add Mephiston, although that seems too much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4158285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
evildrcheese Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I think the most cost effective way to run them is with just Melta bombs... D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4158307 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Mike Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I always thought that VV filled a niche with their access to Storm Shields. If my Blood Angels army ever gets big enough, I'd probably load them up with jump packs, thunder hammers and storm shields. Kinda pricey, but only 7 more points more than than a TH+SS terminator, so take that for what you will. EDIT: I take that back, it's 62 points for a VV w/JP, SS, TH compared to 45 points for an assault terminator w/TH+SS. Doesn't seem like a very good idea anymore Or, you know, 45pts for a van vet with jump pack, storm shield and lightening claw... the same as the TH/SS termie. And you dont have to equip them all with special weapons, you can have some at 32 pts with shields and some at 37 pts. Obviously, if you try and equip them identically to a different unit's base equipment, they will be more expensive. Rule of cool tho Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4160299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I like Vanguard mainly for the storm shields. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4160385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I like Vanguard mainly for the storm shields. I concur as others have as well. To me they are essentially flying Storm Shields. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4160430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Yeah, vanguard are your aggressive, Heavy weapon hunters. Point them at the big guns to get use out of the Shields. Theyre an above average combat unit (Marines with +1 attack) but with a single buff and some gear they become potent. Just don't let them get hit by massed small arms fire, as those 1+2s hurt a lot more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4160447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Raul Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 more of what our illustrious brothers have said. MC hunters (melta bombs and TH) and can tank decently (ss). I think this unit shines with a SP, the fnp with x2 ss (bolt pistols on these 2 guys) soaks up heaps of dmg. Melta pistol on sarge to crack transports and a liberal smattering of LC's make this a really versatile and resilient unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4160601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
evildrcheese Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I'm not sold on them for the SS, the 3++ isn't as great as it sounds, especially since they lack a 2+ armour save as they die just the same to weight of fire which is much more prevalent (see Eldar Scatbikes) As an example of how SS can go wrong, my 8man DC unit with Chaplain and St Celestine attached were charged by a 5 man VV squad, all with TH and SS, naturally I was worried I'd lose my bully unit. I know the VV my opponent was running wasn't optimised, but it was scary, anyway since he was going at I1 everything in my unit got to strike before he did but since I was charged I didn't get my rage bonuses (although I did still get my rerolls to hit in the first round of combat from the Chappy), much to my surprise I managed to wipe the unit before they got a chance to strike... Now I admit this wasn't the best load out for them, and he may have been better having some ablative wounds instead of TH/SS on everyone...but I still think a SS on a single wound model without a 2+ is a bit of a waste... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4160841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_chron Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 In my experience the best results I have had is multi assaulting units I know I can beat but that will last one round and die in the next, I use my unit with 5 SS/LC and some naked wounds that rotate depending on what I am charging or expecting shots to come from. I also usually run a captain in the squad with arty armor and VEdge to help handle 2+ saves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4160849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 See what happened there evildr is he used his VV inefficiently. He had Shields but chose to still charge the DC who have mostly AP- attacks, 3 each even when charged, combined with the rerolls he was doomed to lose. Sure his Shields may have helped against celestine and any hidden special melee you had on the DC but I bet the majority of the damage came from your multitude of rerolling attacks. He shouldve used them to hunt vehicles and threaten weaker units. All Shields is cool, but also inefficient as you need to have some without so it's not as painful when you die to small arms. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/312927-vanguard-veterans-are-they-juat-bad-death-company/#findComment-4160856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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