Vanguard Veterans; are they juat bad Death Company?

[Xenith]

I'm not sold on them for the SS, the 3++ isn't as great as it sounds, especially since they lack a 2+ armour save as they die just the same to weight of fire which is much more prevalent (see Eldar Scatbikes)

 

That's what the priest is for ;)

[evildrcheese]

 

 

I'm not sold on them for the SS, the 3++ isn't as great as it sounds, especially since they lack a 2+ armour save as they die just the same to weight of fire which is much more prevalent (see Eldar Scatbikes)

That's what the priest is for ;)

That still only makes them as durable as DC to weight of fire/ap4 and worse and you've used a precious HQ slot and they're getting super pointy for the unit...

 

Like I say, I know my opponent didn't make the best choice in load out or target, but they were the only real target available...and if he didn't charge the DC, they would've charged him.

 

I just wanted to illustrate the downside of SS on VV. I do like the idea of claw/SS for both rule of cool and ass kicking, but I think the way to go is either only Melta bombs or kit them out mixed with a 2+ character to tank and LoS ap2 and better onto a shield...then we're back to bumping up the price with a character!

 

Tricky Veterans...

 

D

[Nova_chron]

I've gotta say they are a hard unit to figure out and I personally don't feel there is a good way to

Min max them I've said in various threads VV are your scalpel and DC are your sledge hammer/stick of dynamite. Use the VV to multi assault and tie up units you want held in place while that sledge hammer gets swinging.

[Canadian_F_H]

Idk how it translates to Ba, but I plan to use the vv to assault in tandem with cheaper and more numerous crusader squads or assault squads. This topic is interesting as it definitely highlights the load out and target issues of vv.

 

PS, technically I'm also a blood angel player now that I think of it since I inherited my bro's blood angels and I have the contents of space hulk and death storm, so I guess I need to figure this out too...

[Charlo]

The more I think about it the more I like vanguard in am assault transport than with packs. You keep them a little cheaper (relatively of course, a LR or similar is still expensive) and can stick a powerful force multiplyer in them like Corbulo as we've mentioned earlier.

 

DC are bullet magnets and with packs they will always seem more threatening than what's inside the LR/ Raven etc

 

Once disembarked you spread out and multicharge as much as possible, either getting a lot of your opponents army into assault and holding for the DC charge next turn, or you act as the second wave - bringing power weapons to bear and overwhelm the enemy.

 

All this said though, while silly points heavy, I do plan to make a squad of Vanguard with all pistols at some point. Mobile grav/plasma/hand flamer fire Base hoo!

[Nova_chron]

Oh I like that idea I may have to do a unit with dual pistols and make them look like a posse (not sure about spelling) and run them in a kill team game

[Brother_Mike]

Perhaps a better way to think about VV is that they are a command squad with less utility? I follow the logic that you usually do not NEED a storm shield on every squad member. And having the sanguinary novitiate takes away the drawback of having to throw a sanguinary priest (tying up points and an HQ slot) in with your VV to make they more durable against small arms fire.

 

You get less customization per member (only 3 can choose a custom loadout) and only 5 members total. But if we all agree that 2-3 SS is enough...

[Charlo]

Theyre very similar, but I see Command as a support unit, bringing special weapons and decent resilience where it's needed and also being a stellar escort for a character, granting them FNP, a challenge monkey and 3++ albative bodies in a small package :)

[evildrcheese]

Theyre very similar, but I see Command as a support unit, bringing special weapons and decent resilience where it's needed and also being a stellar escort for a character, granting them FNP, a challenge monkey and 3++ albative bodies in a small package :)

Heh, Challenge monkey.

 

Best. Mental. Image. Ever.

 

D

[Brother Raul]

As an after thought if corbulo's farseeing eye can be used to force rerolls VV's would be a great squad to attach him too. LoS to SS, +1 ws & int plus FNP would really buff out the squad, 7 guys (6+ sarge) would be quite a good killy squad and resilient. TH for concussive and x2 guys with a pair of LC'smaybe in a rhino would kill it in small games.

[Charlo]

I'm a little bit infatuated with the idea of a squad of Vanguard with mainly twin hand flamers... You shoot all the templates at the same time due to weapon types so you will just score so many hits Sprinkle in some Shields and Melta bombs to taste!

 

If not perhaps grav or plasma?

 

Gotta keep the Vanguard Unique!

[Golden Aegis]

Love the idea of VV, I personally load them out like the heroes they are. A full squad of ten, all with Storm Shields, 3 Fists, Relic Blade on the sarge, and the rest have claws. They travel around with a priest, and usually have a good old time. Trick is to only aim them at tough targets.

 

Is it competitive? Debatable. Is it fun? Absolutely.

[LutherMax]

Love the idea of VV, I personally load them out like the heroes they are. A full squad of ten, all with Storm Shields, 3 Fists, Relic Blade on the sarge, and the rest have claws. They travel around with a priest, and usually have a good old time. Trick is to only aim them at tough targets.

 

Is it competitive? Debatable. Is it fun? Absolutely.

 

 Love the idea of this (in my opinion this is how the game should be played). But doesn't the pointy-ness mean sacrifices in the rest of the army?

[Brother_Mike]

 

Love the idea of VV, I personally load them out like the heroes they are. A full squad of ten, all with Storm Shields, 3 Fists, Relic Blade on the sarge, and the rest have claws. They travel around with a priest, and usually have a good old time. Trick is to only aim them at tough targets.

 

Is it competitive? Debatable. Is it fun? Absolutely.

 

 Love the idea of this (in my opinion this is how the game should be played). But doesn't the pointy-ness mean sacrifices in the rest of the army?

 

Hey wait, you can't haven't units with loadouts you enjoy but are cost inefficient! That would be

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Fun.

 

Seriously tho, it seems like everyone has a phobia of taking cost ineffective units. Rule of cool is the foremost rule

[Charlo]

It's because if they underperform it just feels worse. I say take inefficient units though, surprise your opponent, they'll never expect the full dual lightning claw vets with Melta bombs!

[evildrcheese]

This is a discussion of a units effectiveness, in direct comparison to another unit. Of course we're going to start about the best load outs and how to run them.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a hyper competitive player or anything (though I do spend quite on bit of time on Dakka, so I'm a bit jaded now). I enjoy narrative games the more than full on kicking matches, but I want to get a decent game whenever I play, and like Charlo said it really sucks when units don't deliver on the investment you've made and it also affects your overall list composition.

 

However I agree that rule of cool should takes precedence, it's the only reason I still run Tac Terminators. Haha.

 

D

[Golden Aegis]

Overall it does, but hopefully eventually we'll get decently priced power weapons for our VV, then the points jab will hurt significantly less. On the topic though, like others have said the advantage that VV have over our other jump choices is the wonderful SS option.

[Charlo]

I want to love Tac terminators so much, but sadly the models and rules just plain suck.

 

But yes, I think for assault, DC are just a better unit moat of the time. Vanguard work better to combat specific threats and get certain weapons in the right places.

[Charlo]

Yeah I just ordered a lot of hand flamers to make my stupid twin hand flamer unit a reality. The FW ones are nice! Got a couple of those in the Mix. Hordes be gone!

[nevaenuffbass]

The two competitive uses I see for them both involve formations.

 

1. Free power weapons. Mix them up for a very capable unit.

2. As an addition to angel's fury. (3 Ravens). In my games using this formation, I've learned that it is critical to tie up as much of the en in close combat as possible. There is also a lot to be said for being able to charge one guy into the vehicle (fist guy) without it impacting the rest. Load out here would be 8-9 with a scattering of melta bombs, power fists & other power weapons. Attach a Chappy and / or sang priest. In t2 you have dc and the tac squads from the formation joining the assaults.

 

While the unit is expensive, it fulfils a role that dc won't and will be needed most games.

 

SS vv's seem like a really bad idea to me. It seems really rare that an opponent won't have the easy counter to it, which is loads of small arms fire.

 

The other point of difference from dc is that they can take grav pistols. Ba have limited acces to good grav (no grav cannons at all) so wherever we take it, we are paying a premium (except maybe bikes). I think 15 pts per model, on expensive models is not worth it, but it is a consideration.

[Red-beard]

I like VVs when running the Sanguine Wing.

Ran twenty Sanguine Wing VVs in a recent game against necrons. I must say they performed quite well. With 100% of my models sporting power weapons, my army mowed through the necron armour saves. The VVs helped lead me to a strong victory against the new necrons.

Of course, I could have just run twenty DC with power weapons.... but that would have cost an extra 320 points.