CommissarHughes Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Just a quick question about heavy weapons teams point cost; why aren't they 30 points? It seems like an arbitrary tax of 15 points for models that are in all but base size two guardsmen each. In any squad within the codex there is no additional fee to bring on a heavy weapon, and at T3 with a 5+ armor save, they die fast. It seems like GW has a chart that adds points the more you give to it, which seems to be for every additional wound you add 10 points to the base points cost, which would make sense for a t4 space marine that can eat a .75 caliber micro rocket but not on an ordinary human. I doubt that GW will discard their chart (since it may be as old as 40K itself) but T3 is tripling the points cost. Shouldn't we get a discount since one extra wound is practically adding one extra man (5 points a man for platoon squads) but you're extremely vulnerable to S6 instant death with a crap save all we're guaranteed? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zectz Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 It's one of the things I hope they address in the next codex update. It's pretty skewed when a x3 motor team costs 60 points when you can just get a Wyvern for 65... With all the point reductions across all recent 7th edition codexes, I think heavy weapon squads are one of the units that deserve a base reduction, among a few other units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4160542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Yeah that needs fixing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4160574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015  It's pretty skewed when a x3 motor team costs 60 points when you can just get a Wyvern for 65... Well....the wyvern also ties down a heavy FOC slot, one of IG's most hotly contested.  Not saying 60 points is right, just saying there's more than just points cost involved.   I'd say 30 points for the squad, and make them buy their heavy weapons a la carte.  15 points for three heavy bolters, and so on.  /edit/  Did I mention that the wyvern is broken?  It should cost 120 points for how devastating it is... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4160622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
morroccomole Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 As a footslogger commander, I hope they bring down the points cost.That being said, I can see why there might be a slight 'tax' on heavy weapons teams. When you blob them up with guard units, they "take the place of" 2 normal lasgun troopers, so maybe its actually a reduction in points there? Also, when that squad moves, it renders the heavy weapons unable to fire at normal BS, which also would lend itself to a "reduction" in points. So maybe whoever was making the rules decided dedicated heavy weapons squads were going to cost more, for the simple fact of the many ways in which they could be used? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4160645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emicus Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Otherwise would you field any troops bar HWTs? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4160654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommissarHughes Posted September 1, 2015 Author Share Posted September 1, 2015 Otherwise would you field any troops bar HWTs? Â I would. Our troops are a lot better than people think and the HWT has little mobility. Besides, you need a platoon to bring them and their guns still aren't cheap Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4160665 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamansky Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 well i don't know how it is going in other parts of the world but in my local meta to field a HWS is to give 'first blood' to the opponent in 50% cases. Depends on whose the first turn is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4160694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
M@verik115 Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I dont know hey. Sure a points reduction would be nice, but to be honest when I field my heavy weapon teams they always more then make up their points (the average being about 5X). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4160703 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 A points reduction would be the right thing to do  The current cost of ig heavy weapon squads goes back to the days when gw put a premium on squads that could take massed special and heavy weapons. For example in 3rd edition a heavy bolter was 5 points in a space marine tactical squads but 15 in a devastator squad... They have since done away with this and all special and heavy weapons cost the same in c:sm regardless of who takes them...  This train of thought was in the old ig codex and will probably go away once they finally update them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4161787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Y'all need to be clear about the difference between a HWT (one base; may be included in a variety of squads as an upgrade) and a HWS (three HWTs as a squad). Â Few things drive me as crazy as trying to ferret out whether people mean HWT and HWS when they say HWT. Â If you mean the six wound three model squad with three heavy weapons, THAT IS NOT A HEAVY WEAPONS TEAM, THAT IS A HEAVY WEAPONS SQUAD!!!! Â ...and a single 90mm base with a heavy weapon and two grunts on it is a heavy weapons team. Â Got it? Â Good! Now move out and draw fire! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4161996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 So...who wants to further muddle the water by referring to rapiers and other artillery with 2-3 crew as HWTs? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4162011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
M@verik115 Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 What about sabre defence platforms which only have 1 guardsman manning it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4162036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 What about sabre defence platforms which only have 1 guardsman manning it? Why, that would be An Army Of One! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4162079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
M@verik115 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 What about sabre defence platforms which only have 1 guardsman manning it? Why, that would be An Army Of One! Lies, marbo never mans the sabre defence platforms. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4162432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I really love Saber Heavy Defence Platform Squad Teams. That Interceptor/Skyfire Lascannon really takes names. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4162544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Antaeus Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 It's because GW wants you to help amortize their expensive wyvern kit. All of the infantry molds have already paid for themselves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4195083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionicman Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015   It's pretty skewed when a x3 motor team costs 60 points when you can just get a Wyvern for 65... Well....the wyvern also ties down a heavy FOC slot, one of IG's most hotly contested.  Not saying 60 points is right, just saying there's more than just points cost involved.  Thats why you take more than one. Guess it will be "fixed" with the new dex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4195276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kontakt Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Mortars are an option nobody takes. They are awful and need improvement. The Wyvern is also the best arty in the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4195742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 The Wyvern's the best anti-Infantry artillery in the game. If Heavy Weapons Squads were 10pts a model base cost rather than 15pts, Mortar Squads would be a good, cheap Objective Secured unit to hide behind some LoS Blocking cover. I'd be okay with paying 45pts for a squad like that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4195756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I used to take mortars and I loved them. There needs to be more field testing done than armchair thinking. But, hey, if mathhammer says it's a poor choice, who am I to think I did anything useful with the mortars in the first place? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4196150 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I like mortars for the same reason I like flamers...BS3 lasguns. ANYTHING is an improvement over that...mortars are a great upgrade in the abstract, although perhaps not for the points. But when you factor in opportunity cost, I'll take an autocannon or a heavy bolter, thanks...hell, even a missile launcher...It's not that they're bad, they aren't. It's just that taking them means not taking something better. I have used them in command squads when those command squads desperately need to remain out of enemy LOS...like if I'm using Creed in combination with forward sentries and ruins to have three veteran squads with 2+ cover that get to shoot their autocannons every turn...while creed's squad is hanging out behind a Leman Russ, the mortar gives them something offensive to do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4196193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kontakt Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 I like mortars for the same reason I like flamers...BS3 lasguns. ANYTHING is an improvement over that...mortars are a great upgrade in the abstract, although perhaps not for the points. But when you factor in opportunity cost, I'll take an autocannon or a heavy bolter, thanks...hell, even a missile launcher...It's not that they're bad, they aren't. It's just that taking them means not taking something better. I have used them in command squads when those command squads desperately need to remain out of enemy LOS...like if I'm using Creed in combination with forward sentries and ruins to have three veteran squads with 2+ cover that get to shoot their autocannons every turn...while creed's squad is hanging out behind a Leman Russ, the mortar gives them something offensive to do. My only problem with that is you can now hide them inside a chimera and still give orders. At which point I think more about using an autocannon or something. I don't dislike mortars, I just feel they are too expensive and when you're paying for a HWT, so you may as well spend the extra points to make it good. If they were 5 points cheaper per mortar team, I'd be all over them. Hopefully, GW tries to make them viable in the next codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4197624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamansky Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015  My only problem with that is you can now hide them inside a chimera and still give orders.  Orders cannot be issued to embarked units Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4197749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 I think he meant that if you really wanted a CCS to not die, a Chimera to put them in hidden away is a pretty good way to do it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313101-heavy-weapons-point-cost/#findComment-4198090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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