The Grail Wardens: a Liber Astartes Group Project

[Doctor Perils]

A Liber Astartes Group Project

This thread collects the main discussions surrounding the Liber Astartes Group Project concerning the so-called “Grail Wardens” – an alliance of several chapters descending from the Blood Angels formed around the goal of protecting the artefact known as the “Grail” – as well as their opponents, both within the Imperium and without.
We shall aim on keeping this first post updated, though sometimes these may be rather sporadic.

Introduction

There are three main factions that take part in this project: the Grail Wardens (sometimes also called the Red Crusaders), the Imperial faction, and the Chaos faction.

The Astartes that would one day become known as the Grail Wardens once lead the Red Crusade against secessionist forces in the aftermath of the Nova Terra Interregnum and the Age of Apostasy.

During this campaign, they encountered a strong Daemonic presence on the Cardinal World of Golgotha, entities that had corrupted a large portion of the population of the world, and threatened to spread its influence to the rest of the Byzantyne Sector. With effort, the participants in the Red Crusade finally beat back the Daemonic forces, and a conclave of Librarians of the chapters succeeded in closing the Golgothane Rift, empowering a strange artefact known only as the Grail in order to bind it in that state.

However, the war on Golgotha was not won without cost. A full Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes was immolated to save the lives of the uncounted billions and trillions of the inhabitants of the sector, and all of the Chief Librarians perished during the ritual of binding. Countless more casualties were suffered by the Red Crusaders, not only within the ranks of the Space Marines, but also of the allied forces, including several great heroes of the Questoris Familia.

In order for these sacrifices to not be worthless, the remaining Chapter Masters of the Red Crusaders came together and swore a pact of protection of the Grail, as they knew that – should the artefact fall into the wrong hands – it could become an unstoppable weapon against the Imperium. Librarians and Sanguinary Priests of the chapters witnessed the oath, and bound it within the very blood of these Chapter Masters, so that it could never be forgotten by themselves or their heirs.

And thus were born the Grail Wardens, not only an alliance of chapters of the Adeptus Astartes, but also a brotherhood of warriors, sworn to protect the Imperium, through the protection of a single Relic. The Temple Guard, the innermost circle of protectors of the Grail, counted only {12} Astartes, spiritual successors of the original librarians who sealed the Golgothane Rift: they were the only ones to be allowed to witness the Grail's true form.


Centuries, passed; Millenia even, and the Grail Wardens stood firm in the face of adversity: three times they threw back the assaults of Eldar Corsairs; they withstood an Ork Waaagh with casualties of three men; they defeated the invasion of the renegade Lord Cinderscar the Decaying…

How could they have known that the canker had been in their midst even when they were created?

It is the beginning of the 38th Millenium, and the Grail Wardens have had five centuries of calm. Though they certainly can't be considered to have been considered lax, at the least they let their guard down. It seems that this was enough for certain members of the brotherhood to start listening to whispers hidden deep inside their souls and their blood. And, from one day to the next, the Grail disappeared, the Temple Guard exterminated, and only a handful of the Order of the Grail Wardens surviving a vicious attack from the {Chaos Warband}, aided by certain traitors within the Order.

Within a few months, the Chapter Masters of the Grail Wardens had convened to discuss their course of action. None denied the primordial importance of recovering the Grail, as its absence on Golgotha could spell the end of the Byzantane Sector; however, the high officers could not decide on a plan. Some, like the Sanguinary Crusaders and the Knights Revenant advocated a massed military campaign against all the historical foes of Golgotha, a second Red Crusade; others, such as the Red Sentinels, thought that a more prudent course of action would be painstaking research of the facts, and a more focused hunt.

All debate was ended when the last Chapter Master of the convocation arrived: as the doors to the meeting room were pushed open, all were ready to greet their cousin of the Knights Resplendent. However, only shouts would cross their lips, as they discovered not only that he was accompanied by his honour guard, but also that all of them had grown atrocious mutations: the full extent of the Knights Resplendent's treachery finally revealed, the Chapter Masters reached for their weapons...

The tragic combat was over in minutes, but during that short period {3} of their kin where dead. Though the Knights' trap was ultimately unsuccessful, neither were any captured to be questioned, and the Lord of the Knights had teleported back off the planet. Outside the doors, the Masters discovered hundreds more of their warriors dead, and their respective fleets had taken damage: though the chapters were far from crippled, the brotherhood had been sundered.

{}

Three main factions are part of this project: the Grail Wardens, the Chaos Faction and the Imperials.

Grail Wardens

Line of {a}
- Sanguinary Crusaders

Line of {b}
- Carmine Cardinals (ext)
- Red Sentinels
- Silver Sons (ext)
- Crimson Host (Imperial – Crimson Cohort)

line of {c}
- Knights Revenant
- Knights Resplendent (Chaos)

Line of {d}
- Archangels
- {Crimson Knights}

Chaos Faction

- Knights Resplendent
- {The other warband}
- The Confederacy of Mahkhg'Gtahvedd

Imperial Faction

- Order of the Abyss
- House Valcorian
- Crimson Cohort

Timeline

Here's a little pseudo-timeline:

• A set of chapters conquer a sector, where they find a Warp Rift
  • This campaign is called the Red Crusade

• Together, they have a lot of trouble stopping the Daemons coming back in, so a set of Librarians forge an artefact that shuts the rift, thanks to a special ritual. (or else an ancient xenos artefact)
• This artefact is the Grail (name still to be found), where the chapter masters and highest ranked veterans of the chapters pour a drop of their blood, to seal the gate.
• This ritual also serves as a blood oath, meaning that all descendents of the oath-swearers are honour bound to protect the Grail and the sector, no matter the cost.
• to protect this grail, the chapters each send a squad (at least), but only the highest ranking members of these "Grail Wardens" are permitted inside the temple where the Grail is kept, as a security measure basically.
• Millenia go by where there the different chapters are all doing their thing
• up until the moment where a massive chaos incursion attacks that sector, with the specific goal of opening the warp rift.
• They are further aided by traitors within the Grail Wardens.
• The remains of the first chapters and their descendent chapters (since they are of the same "blood") return to the sector in order to defend it, but they find everything in tatters. (this might be around M38)
• they then launch a crusade to recover the grail
• A quick and rough outline of what's been decided Please tell me if I've forgotten anything, and I'll change it in the first post.
  
  
  Minigiant's updated Timeline
  
  
  
  
  

  So I quickly started working out a rough timeline to the nearest 1000 years (Its what really helps me). Now it leads to some interesting questions,
  like when was the Red Crusade? (Nice big gap in M35/36)
  Founding Members? (Maybe if we are killing off the Crimson Knights make them founding, kill them off so some later descendants can fulfil the oath?)
  When did the Crimson Host abandon their oath? Before, during or after the crusade to retrieve the grail
  
  The Knights Resplendent are Unknown. When were they first sighted?
  
  M31
  Sanguinary Crusaders founded
  
  M32 - M34
  Knights Revenant founded (3rd?)
  Archangels founded (4^th)
  Red Sentinels founded (6^th)
  
  M35
  
  M36
  Red Crusade
  Crimson Knights destroyed
  
  M37
  Silver Sons founded (14th)
  Crimson Host Founded (14th)
  Silver Sons destroyed
  
  M38
  Carmine Cardinals destroyed - The Last Cardinal story
  

  9. The remains of the first chapters and their descendent chapters (since they are of the same "blood") return to the sector in order to defend it, but they find everything in tatters. (this might be around M38.
  10. they then launch a crusade to recover the grail

  
  M39
  M40
  
  
  Feel free to add stuff to this, I think it will help making a chronological list of events

  
  
  
  Arkangilos's Plot Summary
  
  
  
  
  

  So far, we have the Red Crusade (or whatever we end up calling it. Red Crusade is fine, or something different is fine).
  
  Towards the end of the crusade, Librarians of the Sanguinary Crusaders, Carmine Cardinals, Crimson Knights, and Knights Resplendent sacrifice themselves to seal a breach in real space that daemons and chaos used to manifest and launch an invasion.
  
  In doing so, an object was made the vessel for their souls, and was placed into the handle of a grail. The chapters involved all poured in their blood, as an oath that they would always protect it (or maybe it's the blood of the librarians?).
  
  However, the artefact attracted unwanted attention, and corrupted the wildlife on the world it resided on. Raiders, mutants, off world warbands etc would attack to try and steal the grail. The chapters therefore each sent a squad to protect it. That would be half a company.
  
  Also, there would be a Sanguinary Priest, a chaplain, and a librarian (or more than one?) to help watch for taint.
  
  
  Years later, for whatever reason, and unknown to us (in universe), the Knights Resplendent turned. They either stole the grail, or helped someone else steal the grail. All defenders were killed.
  
  The Sanguinary Crusaders (and the other surviving founders) set out to bring in the blood line of the chapters that are dead, in order to fulfil the blood oaths.
  
  And now we are at the campaign.
  
  The OpFor would be chaos warbands and armies, and two notable war bands that are leading them: The Knights Resplendent and the Black Hands. And anything else that poured out from the breach in warp and space.

  Other Brainstorming
  
  
  
  
  Here's a quick overview of the ideas that we'd already had:

  • Several chapters questing for a "grail", a possible ancient Imperial Relic
  • A lot of these are Blood Angels successors, but there is no need to limit ourselves to this.
  • Elements to be based on Arthurian Legend, but there is no need to limit ourselves to this.
  • Some believe this "grail" to be a relic of Sanguinius, or even the Emperor, others that it is purely a philosophical concept. In reality, there may also be a Xenos aspect, linked to ancient Eldar Legends.

  Alright, so here is my main idea (that is completely open to change, it's just the rough draft I have). I think it will fit in almost with the way they wanted their chapters originally.
  
  So first off, around year X, the Crimson Knights take up residence on a Feudal World, that was at one time liberated by a join task force of Saint Something (which they would refer to as the Lady of the Lake, or something like that?) and the Crimson Knights. Having seen her in action, the Crimson Knights honored her and the people honored her.
  
  Centuries later, the Eldar on the world use this to their advantage, and the stuff that Cesar wrote comes into play. They use her to deceive the chapter, but deceives them subtly, so there is often truth in what she "lies" to them about.
  
  Eventually, they get a vision to go on a quest for a Red Grail, as the farseer (or whatever) shows them of a space hulk that broke the orbit of the Moon known as Avlon. This grail was believed to still have pure blood from Sanguinius, as the space hulk was made up of a craft that went missing right after the Horus Heresy, and the last remaining records show that they had intended to put one in stasis for the voyage back to Baal. This is *not* the grail that they are looking for, but it is a quest that she has demanded they would take in order to be proven even more worthy. But why? What good would that do for her? I don't know, maybe there is something else that she wants?
  
  Eager to retrieve such a priceless relic and complete such a great quest, they set out, but were met with many obstacles (just as the farseer expected). For one, they didn't exactly know where Avlon was. They had a general idea, but that was it. Also, the wreckage attracted far more than just their chapter. A chaos warband, orks, and the like were attracted to the potential bounties of the hulk. Avalon, and the whole sector, would become a major warzone.
  
  It was not long until detachments from the Crimson Host and the Sanguinary Crusaders also appeared.
  
  Stuff happens, the grail is found to be far more than what was believed. Maybe it was cursed, maybe it was corrupted, or maybe there is something far darker to it. Either way, our three chapters (and maybe other Blood Angel Successors), held a council, where we decided to create a warden for the grail. We create the (Sir Perflous Chapter, does it have a name yet?). It isn't an "official" chapter, and was never part of a founding. Originally, it was made up of veterans of each of our chapters, but as time went on, they would also bolster their numbers with recruits from the world. (Unless you are fine with your chapter being made up entirely as a death watch type organization?)
  
  
  
  But basically, the chapters that belong to Cesar, Lord Thorn, and I go on a hunt for a grail (which fits them all).
  
  We find the grail, which happens to be a dangerous and powerful relic, so we decide to create a sort of Blood Watch, or "Wardens of the Grail" (maybe?) (it doesn't have to be the name, I'm just throwing it out as a place holder), which consists of members from all three of our chapters (and maybe others?). This chapter is what becomes Sir Perfluous's chapter (I mean, he even originally wanted a chapter founded specifically to watch it, and this is a good (in my opinion) way to have exactly that).
  
  Maybe the first commander can be the former Chapter Master of the Crimson Host (Lord Thorn mentioned he wanted his first chapter master to go the route of mine, but seemed disheartened because I did that). This would be a good way for him to do that, and still have the uniqueness he wants from it. Maybe he contributed to the curse, and so thought it only right he would leave the chapter as punishment, and be bound to protecting it. It was a sort of punishment for him, but it is also an honor.
  
  The Wardens of the Grail (or whatever you decide to call them), are completely self governed, have their own code of ethics (though it matches *most* of ours, the Crimson Host being the one that is really different), their own way of electing leaders and conducting their stuff. They can either call on brothers from the founding chapters when facing dire times, or they can recruit from their own population. (Or maybe our own chapters' battle brothers can choose to join them for a time, on top of their recruits?).
  
  
  
  As for the grail being stolen again (and thereby being a great dishonor that was mentioned earlier), that can lead to the wardens calling upon the founding chapters, and so all of our chapters embark on a great quest to get it back (which is unique, and won't conflict with anything I have going on as well).
  
  
  What do you all think? Please, make the changes you want and stuff.
  
  I hope I didn't hijack anything
  
  Or ramble. It's been a long day.

  
  
  I was also thinking that this doesn't need to only be space marine chapters: it could be pretty neat to have an Imperial Knight house, or Freeblades, that also join in on this quest.
  EDIT: Arkangilos has proposed that only Space Marines should be allowed in the Order, but also suggested the idea that Imperial Knights could be seen as rivals, leading to the idea of developing a rival Knight House or a Freeblade also on the Grail-Quest for their own reasons.
  
  As Arkangilos says, we can create a special kind of Space Marine Order (this is what I call Space Marine Organisations that recruit the majority of its members from Chapters: eg. the Deathwatch and the Legio Bolter and Chainsword), but which is special in that it contains all of the members of the chapters in question. Alternatively, selected members of each chapter can pledge themselves to the quest, leaving their chapter to join this new Order for life (in a similar way to the Legio Bolter and Chainsword).
  In either case, I think we could try and develop a kind of unique unit (probably an independent character), that represents knights on personal quests like in the Arthurian legend. These would act as reconnaissance and champions.
  
  Personally, I think it would be best if we still develop the diverse chapters on their own, Sir Perfluous developing fully his own chapter as well, but that have an added component as this alliance of chapters all searching for the same thing; but I included Arkangilos's eloquent proposition because this is a group project. I would be against it being too heavily blood themed, for three reasons: 1) Khorne has blood done, 2) Blood Angels have blood done, 3) The Crimson Knights aren't descendants of Sanguinius.
  EDIT: This means that the project is not necessarily limited to Blood Angel descendants ! A common decision must be made
  
  Further, I would be against us actually finding the grail and losing it again: as in Arthurian Legend (or the Da Vinci Code ), I think we want to keep the doubt about the true nature of the Grail. Is it a real cup-shaped relic ? Is it another kind of relic, like a ship ? Is it only a philosophical concept ? Is it even human (going from Cesar's story) ?
  In that sense, one or two of the chapters could have ancient records talking about a "grail" that was lost. The records are fragmented at best, meaning that we have a lot of trouble believing in its existence or knowing what to look for. We only start the quest for it several millenia after it was supposedly lost (in Arthurian Legend, Camelot and the round table were supposedly built some centuries after the last recorded appearance of the Grail, explaining how difficult it is to find).
  
  
  
  
  Members and Associated Forces
  
  
  
  Grail Wardens
  
  • Arkangilos and the Sanguinary Crusaders
  
  

  

  

  Sanguinary Crusaders

  • Primarch............... Sanguinius
  • Founding.............. Second
  • Homeworld........... Damoria IV (Originally Fleet Based)
  • Organization......... Slight Codex Divergent (Death Company)
  • Grail Wardens...... One of the founding chapters, sends one squad.
  • Crusade Forces... Fourth Company with elements from first and tenth. Battle Force Angel's Fury in route with squads from sixth, seventh, and ninth companies. One Battle Barge, two strike cruisers, and seven escorts. (All of this is open to change depending on what date we decide for this).

  • Sir Perfluous and The Knights Revenant (old topic)

  
  

  

  http://bolterandchainsword.com/sm.php?bpe=e80000&bpj=575555&bp=e80000&bpc=e80000&hdt=ffc637&hdm=ffc637&hdl=ffc637&ey=80fa57&er=e80000&pip=575555&nk=e80000&ch=e80000&eg=ffc637&sk=ffc637&abs=e80000&bt=e80000&cod=e80000&ull=e80000&lk=276741&lll=e80000&lft=e80000&url=e80000&rk=ffc637&lrl=e80000&rft=e80000&slt=ffc637&sli=e80000&srt=ffc637&sri=e80000&ula=e80000&lel=e80000&lla=e80000&lw=e80000&lh=e80000&ura=e80000&rel=e80000&rla=e80000&rw=e80000&rh=e80000&gr=575555&rb=4a4848&nkl=e80000&chestl=e80000&abdl=e80000&hdtl=ffc637&hdml=ffc637&hdll=ffc637&btl=e80000&codl=e80000&erl=e80000&bpl=e80000&bpjl=5c5858&bpel=e80000&bpcl=e80000&abdc=4a4848&bg=FFFFFF&

  Knights Revenant

  • Primarch................. Sanguinius
  • Founding................ ?
  • Homeworld............. Avalon
  • Organisation.......... Slight Codex divergance(Crusades)
  • Grail Wardens....... Tricky, but for now one company, possily two.
  • Crusading Force... All companies participate, special Crusades organised.

  • Cesar de Quart and the Crimson Knights
  • Olis and the Red Sentinels and the Silver Sons

  
  

  

  

  Red Sentinels

  • Primarch............. Sanguinius
  • Founding............. 6th
  • Homeworld.......... Waste
  • Organization........ Codex adherent (except Death Company)
  • Grail Wardens...... Descended from an original member, contributes one squad.
  • Crusade Forces... Two first company squads, four third company squads and one scout squad, six rhinos, two predators and twenty bikes. Force led by third company captain and accompanied by one chaplain, one techmarine and one apothecary. Plus attendant fleet squadron.

  

  Silver Sons

  • Primarch................. Sanguinius
  • Founding Chapter... Red Sentinels
  • Founding................. 14th
  • Homeworld.............. N/a (Fleet based)
  • Organization............ Codex adherent (except Death Company)
  • Grail Wardens.......... Third generation Grail Wardens member, contributes one squad.
  • Crusade Forces....... Fifth company plus two eighth company squads, three storm talons, three storm ravens and ten razorbacks. Battle Barge Deliverer and escorts also attending.

  NB: The Silver Sons fall to chaos in the 37th Millenium and are exterminated by the Red Sentinels. This is independent of the Grail Quest.
  

  • Lord Thørn and the Crimson Host

  
  

  

  Crimson Host

  • Primarch.................. Sanguinius
  • Founding Chapter... Red Sentinels
  • Founding................. 14th (M37)
  • Homeworld.............. Fleet Based
  • Chapter Speciality... Bikes and "Chariots"
  • Organisation............ Slight Codex Divergence
  • Grail Wardens ?...... One squad
  • Crusade Forces...... Five companies (Reserve companies and elements of Veteran and scout companies)

  NB: The Crimson Host discover that they have been manipulated by a daemonic entity. At this moment, they abandon their old identity, their colours and their oaths to the Grail Wardens. (Date to be discussed)
  
  

  • EesiOh and the Archangels

  
  

  

  

  Archangels

  • Primarch.................. Sanguinius
  • Founding Chapter... Blood Angels
  • Founding................. 4th
  • Homeworld.............. Gelarys
  • Chapter Speciality... Assualt Marines, and Thunderhak/Stormraven assualts
  • Organisation............ Slight Codex Divergence
  • Grail Wardens ........ One squad
  • Crusade Forces...... The 6th company (all scouts must spend sometimes with the 6th before becoming fully fledged battle brothers)

  
  

  Chaos Faction
  

  
  And in the opposite court :

  • SlaveToDarkness, and the Knights Resplendent

  
  

  

  Knights Resplendent

  
  

  • Common project: a Dark Mechanicus army.

  Imperial Faction
  

  
  Other contributors :

  • Kelborn and [a Knight Household]

  
  

  a Knight Household

  
  

  • Minigiant and the Order of the Abyss

  
  

  

  [table=Order of Abyss]

  
  
  
  
  
  Older Brainstorming
  
  
  
  
  These are the first ideas about this, including general ideas, Arkangilos's and my own take on things. Please say what you think about the ideas and how you might want to coordinate the project. Thanks ^^
  Once again, sorry for the horrendous presentation...
  
  
  

  When we create something like this, we need to answer a few questions:

  • Who is involved?
  • Why are they involved?
  • Why are they working together?
  • Why would they willingly drain their resources to another organization when they can just send their own companies or detachment, with the benefit that whenever they find it, they don't have to share it? (I feel this one is important, because who keeps the Grail? Think about it, if we do find the Grail. And it is powerful, or a potential cure or could lead to it, why would we let anyone else have it? Especially a non-Blood Angel. This will potentially crush long term relationships).

  We need something more in common than a quest, because *all* chapters are likely to go on a quest for a powerful relic of it pops up.
  
  I'm also not in favor of other armies joining in. Knights and regiments that have a tradition of working with our chapters would be fine, but the more we include, the more complicated it gets. If anything, other armies should be seen as "rivals" to our quest. Meaning they are there, but we want to beat them to it. This isn't a campaign of conquest or defense, we have specific goals regarding artifacts that we want, artifacts we don't want to share.

  
  Another question we might want to ask ourselves is what does the Order do about the victims of the Red Thirst and the Black Rage, especially if it is not limited to Blood Angels successors. This is largely dependent on the formation of the Order : if it is BAs only; and if there are large numbers of troops and units, or if there are just a handful of "knights of the Round Table". It is something to keep in mind though.
  
  
  
  

  Humm... a region of space a bit like this ? Seems possible, probably a better idea... would these chapters still have that common gene-ancestor ? Or who are the chapters from the coalition ? sorry, I'm a bit confused

  
  Nice find. I like the idea that the original Grail Wardens would be tasked with safe guarding the bordering areas near the Grail Abyss.
  
  The way I think of it is thus: The original Wardens would be our unnamed predecessor, Arkangilos' Sanguinary Crusaders and perhaps a smattering of other Chapters. As time wears on, war and politics takes their toll, leaving the original grouping in tatters - possibly even leaving the Sanguinary Crusaders as the only original member left. But the Sanguinary Crusaders are not content with how things stand.
  
  A short time prior to this project's intended events, the Sanguinary Crusaders set about re-contacting the sons of the brother Chapters they had lost. The most success (so far) would be from the BA line - the Red Sentinels, the Crimson Host, the Crimson Knights and one other are found to exist, leading to the Sanguinary Crusaders unofficially reforming the Grail Wardens with one specific task in mind - recover the Relic Grail lost millennia ago.
  
  
  
  This particular set up leaves the project open to other non-BA successor DIYs to join in and also explains why, although the Grail Wardens were supposed to be situated around the Grail Abyss, the current members are scattered across the galaxy. We can also accommodate, with not a lot of trouble, the majority of the Sanguinary Crusaders IA. The changes that could be made can really be just additions to what has been written already.
  
  Of course, such an idea can be refined, changed or nixed altogether if necessary. It's merely an explanation I've pulled out of my ass as I've gone along.
  
  
  

  Also, I proposed the idea that Cesar's chapter could have been presumed to be of blood angels stock, but it was later discovered that they weren't (much like the Soul Drinkers, only the other way round ) From then on they would be honourary members in a way, because they don't want to spill the beans over their battle-brothers' Flaw.

  
  
  If Cèsar is cool with the idea, then sure, I don't see why not. The records might say they are the descendants of _____ Chapter but that is merely a clerical error and Cèsar's boys know better. We may have to come up with a reason why the AdMech hasn't spotted the error yet, though, from the centuries or millennia of gene-seed tithes...

Edited June 22, 2016 by Lord Thørn

[Olis]

Seems like a good foundation to start a group project, I think. I may or may not want my own Red Sentinels to participate (keeping it as a BA affair, apparently :P ), I don't know yet. 

[Cèsar de Quart]

It's best, then, if we leave the nature of the Grail unexplained, "Codex: Necrons" style. 

 

The Lady of the Lake in Albion points my Knights into the direction she wants them to look at, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily an Eldar artifact. If could be an even older device, Necron or older in nature. Kind of like the Pharos in Calth, which if I remember correctly, was older than the Eldar and, supposedly, attracted the Tyrannids towards Macragge.

 

Old prophecies and chapter myths talk about the Grail and its abilities, and signs of its existence have been found in several worlds (which also would explain why are there several worlds with similar Arthurian-themed cultures). These different Chapters have stumbled upon them at various points of their history (foundation or otherwise) and taken to heart their meaning, interpreted in various ways, etc.

 

I think my own is the only Chapter that's not a scion of Sanguinius, which makes the coherence of the idea a bit flimsy, but maybe we can bring this into the story too. Since my Chapter is not familiar with the whole idea of Sanguinius' Blood and the Chalices of the Blood Angels, it's understandable that they have developed their own ideas and interpretations on the meaning of the Grail, much more metaphorical, also skewed by the occasional oracles from the Lady of the Lake, who has her own agenda.

 

I can imagine the Chapters first meeting and the discussions about whose myth is the correct one.

[Doctor Perils]

Seems like a good foundation to start a group project, I think. I may or may not want my own Red Sentinels to participate (keeping it as a BA affair, apparently ), I don't know yet. 

 

I might not have been clear, but the point is that it shouldn't be confined to BA, since at least one of the members already present is from another Primarch.

 

We'd be happy to have you , honoured in fact! Shall I add you to the roster ?

 

But I think it would also be a good idea to keep it a rather limited affair, no more than 10 participants (I'd even be inclined to say less). What does everybody else feel about this ?

 

 

It's best, then, if we leave the nature of the Grail unexplained, "Codex: Necrons" style. 

 

The Lady of the Lake in Albion points my Knights into the direction she wants them to look at, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily an Eldar artifact. If could be an even older device, Necron or older in nature. Kind of like the Pharos in Calth, which if I remember correctly, was older than the Eldar and, supposedly, attracted the Tyrannids towards Macragge.

 

Old prophecies and chapter myths talk about the Grail and its abilities, and signs of its existence have been found in several worlds (which also would explain why are there several worlds with similar Arthurian-themed cultures). These different Chapters have stumbled upon them at various points of their history (foundation or otherwise) and taken to heart their meaning, interpreted in various ways, etc.

 

I think my own is the only Chapter that's not a scion of Sanguinius, which makes the coherence of the idea a bit flimsy, but maybe we can bring this into the story too. Since my Chapter is not familiar with the whole idea of Sanguinius' Blood and the Chalices of the Blood Angels, it's understandable that they have developed their own ideas and interpretations on the meaning of the Grail, much more metaphorical, also skewed by the occasional oracles from the Lady of the Lake, who has her own agenda.

 

I can imagine the Chapters first meeting and the discussions about whose myth is the correct one.

 

I don't think it's a problem having different chapters, descendants of Sanguinius would probably just be more attracted to this quest (for obvious reasons), which translates into more BA chapters taking part.

In fairness, I don't even think we need to limit it to Space Marines, we could also have Imperial Knights (or even crusader houses, like the ones you often see with Inquisitors), that kind of thing.

 

 

EDIT: I'm having trouble finding a way to deal with those blood angels that fall to the red thirst or the black rage. Has anyone got an idea ? Does anybody know how they do it with the Deathwatch ?

Edited September 4, 2015 by Lord Thørn

[Olis]

 

Seems like a good foundation to start a group project, I think. I may or may not want my own Red Sentinels to participate (keeping it as a BA affair, apparently ), I don't know yet.

 

I might not have been clear, but the point is that it shouldn't be confined to BA, since at least one of the members already present is from another Primarch.

 

We'd be happy to have you , honoured in fact! Shall I add you to the roster ?

 

But I think it would also be a good idea to keep it a rather limited affair, no more than 10 participants (I'd even be inclined to say less). What does everybody else feel about this ?

 

Put me down as a 'maybe' for now. I'm still being indecisive about it. :P

 

EDIT: I'm having trouble finding a way to deal with those blood angels that fall to the red thirst or the black rage. Has anyone got an idea ? Does anybody know how they do it with the Deathwatch ?

 

Well, the Red Sentinels were created around the idea that they'd strap their frothers to bikes and land speeders, ergo borrowing elements of the DA codex (it was part of a thought exercise). Perhaps if you're stuck for an idea, you could use that idea as a place holder.

[EesiOh]

 

Seems like a good foundation to start a group project, I think. I may or may not want my own Red Sentinels to participate (keeping it as a BA affair, apparently ), I don't know yet. 

 

I might not have been clear, but the point is that it shouldn't be confined to BA, since at least one of the members already present is from another Primarch.

 

We'd be happy to have you , honoured in fact! Shall I add you to the roster ?

 

But I think it would also be a good idea to keep it a rather limited affair, no more than 10 participants (I'd even be inclined to say less). What does everybody else feel about this ?

 

 

It's best, then, if we leave the nature of the Grail unexplained, "Codex: Necrons" style. 

 

The Lady of the Lake in Albion points my Knights into the direction she wants them to look at, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily an Eldar artifact. If could be an even older device, Necron or older in nature. Kind of like the Pharos in Calth, which if I remember correctly, was older than the Eldar and, supposedly, attracted the Tyrannids towards Macragge.

 

Old prophecies and chapter myths talk about the Grail and its abilities, and signs of its existence have been found in several worlds (which also would explain why are there several worlds with similar Arthurian-themed cultures). These different Chapters have stumbled upon them at various points of their history (foundation or otherwise) and taken to heart their meaning, interpreted in various ways, etc.

 

I think my own is the only Chapter that's not a scion of Sanguinius, which makes the coherence of the idea a bit flimsy, but maybe we can bring this into the story too. Since my Chapter is not familiar with the whole idea of Sanguinius' Blood and the Chalices of the Blood Angels, it's understandable that they have developed their own ideas and interpretations on the meaning of the Grail, much more metaphorical, also skewed by the occasional oracles from the Lady of the Lake, who has her own agenda.

 

I can imagine the Chapters first meeting and the discussions about whose myth is the correct one.

 

I don't think it's a problem having different chapters, descendants of Sanguinius would probably just be more attracted to this quest (for obvious reasons), which translates into more BA chapters taking part.

In fairness, I don't even think we need to limit it to Space Marines, we could also have Imperial Knights (or even crusader houses, like the ones you often see with Inquisitors), that kind of thing.

 

 

EDIT: I'm having trouble finding a way to deal with those blood angels that fall to the red thirst or the black rage. Has anyone got an idea ? Does anybody know how they do it with the Deathwatch ?

 

well my Archangels downright *BLAM* them, but im guessing you are looking for a more effective solution? 

[Doctor Perils]

 

EDIT: I'm having trouble finding a way to deal with those blood angels that fall to the red thirst or the black rage. Has anyone got an idea ? Does anybody know how they do it with the Deathwatch ?

 

Well, the Red Sentinels were created around the idea that they'd strap their frothers to bikes and land speeders, ergo borrowing elements of the DA codex (it was part of a thought exercise). Perhaps if you're stuck for an idea, you could use that idea as a place holder.

 

No prob' !

 

for the Red Thirst and Black Rage, I was essentially thinking along the lines of how they keep it secret from the non Blood Angel successors. Otherwise, the Idea could be workable, but that's dependent on how we end up organising the Order: if there are actual troops and units, then that would be possible; if there are only going to be a handful of Knights in the Order at one time, then a Death Company (even if they're bikers) will be much more complicated to put in place.

[Arkangilos]

I'll have to check when I get home (I'm sure it's mentioned in the Death Watch book). That's why I'm more in favor of it being a blood angel thing, though. At least for the order.

Another benefit to that is that the Grail can be a synonym for the cure.

 

As it stands, I don't see a reason for us to work together in a long term way.

 

When we create something like this, we need to answer a few questions:

 

Who is involved?

Why are they involved?

Why are they working together?

Why would they willingly drain their resources to another organization when they can just send their own companies or detachment, with the benefit that whenever they find it, they don't have to share it? (I feel this one is important, because who keeps the Grail? Think about it, if we do find the Grail. And it is powerful, or a potential cure or could lead to it, why would we let anyone else have it? Especially a non-Blood Angel. This will potentially crush long term relationships).

 

We need something more in common than a quest, because *all* chapters are likely to go on a quest for a powerful relic of it pops up.

 

I'm also not in favor of other armies joining in. Knights and regiments that have a tradition of working with our chapters would be fine, but the more we include, the more complicated it gets. If anything, other armies should be seen as "rivals" to our quest. Meaning they are there, but we want to beat them to it. This isn't a campaign of conquest or defense, we have specific goals regarding artifacts that we want, artifacts we don't want to share.

 

Well, about to clock in to work, so i will add more later.

[Doctor Perils]

I'll have to check when I get home (I'm sure it's mentioned in the Death Watch book). That's why I'm more in favor of it being a blood angel thing, though. At least for the order.

Another benefit to that is that the Grail can be a synonym for the cure.

 

As it stands, I don't see a reason for us to work together in a long term way.

 

 

Great synthesis of the important questions to answer.

 

I was avoiding limiting it to blood angels, because I didn't want to push Cesar out, and I didn't want to force him to take Blood Angels as a Primogenitor. Aye, just BAs would be simpler, but let's wait and see.

 

As you say, there is nothing that obliges us to make it a permanent order, and there is nothing forcing the participants to stay in the Order. I know that when the Crimson Host become the Crimson Cohort, they are going to leave this alliance.

 

I had had the idea of the Imperial Knights in the order because of Questoris, but I think I like your idea of having them as rivals better. A special Imperial Knight House whose purpose is to seek the Grail (for some reason), but who are rivals of this Order, could be pretty fun to develop (I'll add this, and the questions, to the first post)

[Olis]

if there are only going to be a handful of Knights in the Order at one time, then a Death Company (even if they're bikers) will be much more complicated to put in place.

 

How about... if your Crimson Host treat bikes as 'steeds'? It'd make for an interesting dynamic in how they act and what they see. Just a thought. ;)  

[Arkangilos]

As you say, there is nothing that obliges us to make it a permanent order, and there is nothing forcing the participants to stay in the Order. I know that when the Crimson Host become the Crimson Cohort, they are going to leave this alliance.

But the thing is, there is no reason to make it in the first place. We are literally doing what all chapters do.

 

The idea behind what I suggested was that we found the artifact, but decided it was better to keep it away from our chapters. Then the order has an actual, tangible purpose. This also leaves room for future campaigns together as honor bound brothers.

 

The reason I suggested it turn into Sir P's chapter is because when he created his DiY that is exactly what he said he wanted: a chapter created specifically to watch over something. The problem is, as you said, it is limiting so Cesar would have to change or lose out. So it is definitely a throw away idea.

 

The order is not, though. If it has to consist non blood Angel successors than I maintain the relic should still be found.

 

Otherwise I would say the Grail is the cure, and the order is created to search for it.

 

*edit*

Unless the order has a secret hidden part that misleads the non blood angel chapters. Being mostly the children of Sanguinius, it was created for finding a cure, but they manipulated the non children because of whatever advantage. Only the children of Sanguinius know the truth.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Arkangilos

[Doctor Perils]

 

if there are only going to be a handful of Knights in the Order at one time, then a Death Company (even if they're bikers) will be much more complicated to put in place.

 

How about... if your Crimson Host treat bikes as 'steeds'? It'd make for an interesting dynamic in how they act and what they see. Just a thought.

 

 

In fairness, that's pretty much what I'd had in mind. I'm going to try and make them resemble the Scythians (as the White Scars are the Mongolians) I haven't written much on them yet, but most of the chapter is generally going to fight as a unified horde (I think): overkill, I know, but I thought it could be interesting to see... That's why I asked for them to be successors of your Red Sentinels, since you have a bit of a mechanised /Mad Max vibe, which I thought worked better than being directly descended from the Blood Angels.

 

I was thinking of the "Grail Knights/Wardens" though when I wrote that line, not about the Crimson Host

 

 

 

As you say, there is nothing that obliges us to make it a permanent order, and there is nothing forcing the participants to stay in the Order. I know that when the Crimson Host become the Crimson Cohort, they are going to leave this alliance.

But the thing is, there is no reason to make it in the first place. We are literally doing what all chapters do.

 

The idea behind what I suggested was that we found the artifact, but decided it was better to keep it away from our chapters. Then the order has an actual, tangible purpose. This also leaves room for future campaigns together as honor bound brothers.

 

The reason I suggested it turn into Sir P's chapter is because when he created his DiY that is exactly what he said he wanted: a chapter created specifically to watch over something. The problem is, as you said, it is limiting so Cesar would have to change or lose out. So it is definitely a throw away idea.

 

The order is not, though. If it has to consist non blood Angel successors than I maintain the relic should still be found.

 

Otherwise I would say the Grail is the cure, and the order is created to search for it.

 

*edit*

Unless the order has a secret hidden part that misleads the non blood angel chapters. Being mostly the children of Sanguinius, it was created for finding a cure, but they manipulated the non children because of whatever advantage. Only the children of Sanguinius know the truth.

 

 

Possibly, I was thinking that, since the Chapters have a common purpose, that they could act together on it.

The edited idea is also quite possible.

 

We'll have to see what others think of it first though.

[Olis]

I was thinking of the "Grail Knights/Wardens" though when I wrote that line, not about the Crimson Host

 

Ah. Yeah, I should have figured that out. Oh well. :P

[Slave to Darkness]

You do know there is a renegade Slaaneshi warband of Blood Angel sucsessor origin that is also looking for the Grail? Just sayin ;) :p

[Doctor Perils]

Coool. Or not ? I was not aware, can you give me a link or a reference please ?

[Olis]

You do know there is a renegade Slaaneshi warband of Blood Angel sucsessor origin that is also looking for the Grail? Just sayin

 

You mean your own guys? Sounds like we've found our Dick Dastardly... :P

[Slave to Darkness]

I have just decided to make my renegades Blood Angel descendants, as I have used a few Blood Angel bits, and I wanted to be involved *lip quivvers* I like what you guys have goin on here, think you all have a good thing going. Wouldnt the threat of Chaos kinda be a good motivation for your guys??

 

As for when your boys turn into dribbling frothers, couldnt you do what Sanguinius did back in the day, separate them from anybody who dont know of the curse and put a bullet in their head? Have them listed as KIA?

[Doctor Perils]

Welcome to the team, STD! () As long as the others are ok with it of course, but I think it's a great idea !

 

We'd have to know if you started the quest on your own, or if your chapter was an old member who turned traitor ?

Also, Slaaneshi enemies could further tie in to a possible link to Eldar probably ?

 

What's your warband name ?

[Sir Perfluous]

First off - wow. I had no idea that this would end up being so big! I mean, really, I turn my back for two days and all of this happens!  This is looking awesome, and I'm proud to be a part of it. I've been away from the B&C for a bit, doing actual real world things (they're so inconvenient, aren't they), so it seems I've got some catching up to do! Still, looking great. I did find some time, though, to sneak in a bit of idea doodling for the organisation of my chapter (I've decided that the Codex can get lost ), so expect that at some point on my thread. Though I still can't think of a suitable name... but here is not the place. I love the idea of the ancient order of reluctant allies sworn to keep the Grail (whatever the Grail actually is) a secret, with various crusades going on across the stars. Awesome stuff. 

 

I have just decided to make my renegades Blood Angel descendants, as I have used a few Blood Angel bits, and I wanted to be involved *lip quivvers* I like what you guys have goin on here, think you all have a good thing going. Wouldnt the threat of Chaos kinda be a good motivation for your guys??

 

Welcome aboard, if aboard is you want to be!. I did suggest, actually, over on my thread, the possibility that Chaos could have a hand in whatever is going on. My original idea was for Lord Thorn's Crimson Host/Cohort to be the ones that turned to Chaos and broke away, but that was, as it turned out, incompatible with his ideas. If the renegades were loyal but then corrupted by the allure of the Grail and are now after it (whatever it is) for the power it promises, not because it's really holy, that might work. 

[Doctor Perils]

 

Welcome aboard, if aboard is you want to be!. I did suggest, actually, over on my thread, the possibility that Chaos could have a hand in whatever is going on. My original idea was for Lord Thorn's Crimson Host/Cohort to be the ones that turned to Chaos and broke away, but that was, as it turned out, incompatible with his ideas. If the renegades were loyal but then corrupted by the allure of the Grail and are now after it (whatever it is) for the power it promises, not because it's really holy, that might work. 

 

Yeah, sorry, I definitely want to keep my chapter morphing theme, and the fact that they resist the temptation... Oooops, and there I was going to spoil my own story ! 

 

Solution for the Crimson Knights ?

 

I was just wondering about a simpler way of doing this, but without pushing out Cesar's Imperial Fists successors, and I think I've found it, as long as he's in agreement: we could simply say that everyone believed his chapter were Blood Angels successors, and that they had managed to find a cure (possibly because his members had drunk from the grail), but then, much later on, it was discovered that there had been a mix up, much like the Soul Drinkers were believed to be Imperial Fists successors, but then it was found that they weren't (and it just seems so obvious that they are blood angels successors...)

 

After millenia of fighting side by side, the Crimson Knights don't want to betray the chapters they believed were brothers, so they pinkyswear they won't say anything, and continue the search...

 

How does that sound ?

 

Common Ancestor ?

 

Could all our chapters have a common ancestor, who were charged with guarding the Grail (secret task) - the Grail Wardens. They are then destroyed, by Slaaneshi/Eldar, and so the Grail is stolen and most documentation about it lost to the mists of time.

 

However, their genestocks on Mars were incredibly extensive (for some as yet unknown reason ?). One survivor escapes, but he is mortally wounded and his memories are scattered (he could have been tortured, and his mind is now broken for instance).

 

Because of the very high number of geneseed, and its apparent purity, the High Lords of Terra decree that three/four chapters will be created from this geneseed.

 

Years after their founding, each (or simply one) of these chapters is visited by the mad space marine, who tells them of this "Grail" and how it was their ancestor's duty to guard over it. Since the ancestor chapter is no more, they are honour bound to search for it and restore it. The successors are inclined to ignore him, but through jiggery pokery, they find that he is exempt from the red thirst or the black rage, even though he is obviously a Scion of Sanginius.

 

Because of this, the successors get together, and decide to create an order that will be the spiritual successor to the Grail Wardens.

Over time, some chapters leave, create new successors, or turn rogue, etc. Also, some of the chapters have this special quest used to manipulate them.

 

 

 

This doesn't necessarily answer all of Arkangilos's questions, but it could answer some. As he says, there is not necessarily much reason for the different chapters to work too much together on this, so I'd see it more as a select few from each chapter that pledge themselves and go on quests on their own (but sharing all their findings with their colleagues). As soon as they find what they think is a good clue, but there are pesky enemies on the way, they can call to the closest chapter of the Alliance to help them.

These few decide to go on the quest because they believe they can cure all of the sons of Sanguinius, for the sheer nobility of it all, for personal glory... Whichever is pertinent to them.

I think this format would allow us to link all our chapters together coherently, but give us enough leeway to be free to do what we want in each chapter.

 

What do you guys think ?

[Slave to Darkness]

i have been thinking of a good idea fluffwise for my warband, I love the idea of the Grail being the reason or part of the reason why they turn, think I'm gonna run with that idea and see what I can do with it. As for a name I am undecided atm,, got a few ideas but not settled on one yet. 

[Doctor Perils]

Sir Perfluous had come up with the Knights Resplendant, but doesn't seem set on that. I think that that name honestly sounds extremely Slaaneshi (just one step from Resplendent to Perfection...) You could probably see with him about using that name if it pleases you ?

[Slave to Darkness]

Aye if he doesn't mind, Sounds better than Knights Splendiferous or Knights Splendorous, I should really stay away from the onlne Thesaurus when sleepy,  end up learning silly words that I try to fit into everyday use :D

[Sir Perfluous]

Aye if he doesn't mind, Sounds better than Knights Splendiferous or Knights Splendorous, I should really stay away from the onlne Thesaurus when sleepy,  end up learning silly words that I try to fit into everyday use

 

If you want it, go ahead. I quite like it, even if it doesn't quite fit my chapter, so it'd be nice to know that it was being used somehow! 

[Cèsar de Quart]

 

 

Welcome aboard, if aboard is you want to be!. I did suggest, actually, over on my thread, the possibility that Chaos could have a hand in whatever is going on. My original idea was for Lord Thorn's Crimson Host/Cohort to be the ones that turned to Chaos and broke away, but that was, as it turned out, incompatible with his ideas. If the renegades were loyal but then corrupted by the allure of the Grail and are now after it (whatever it is) for the power it promises, not because it's really holy, that might work. 

 

Yeah, sorry, I definitely want to keep my chapter morphing theme, and the fact that they resist the temptation... Oooops, and there I was going to spoil my own story ! 

 

Solution for the Crimson Knights ?

 

I was just wondering about a simpler way of doing this, but without pushing out Cesar's Imperial Fists successors, and I think I've found it, as long as he's in agreement: we could simply say that everyone believed his chapter were Blood Angels successors, and that they had managed to find a cure (possibly because his members had drunk from the grail), but then, much later on, it was discovered that there had been a mix up, much like the Soul Drinkers were believed to be Imperial Fists successors, but then it was found that they weren't (and it just seems so obvious that they are blood angels successors...)

 

After millenia of fighting side by side, the Crimson Knights don't want to betray the chapters they believed were brothers, so they pinkyswear they won't say anything, and continue the search...

 

How does that sound ?

 

Common Ancestor ?

 

Could all our chapters have a common ancestor, who were charged with guarding the Grail (secret task) - the Grail Wardens. They are then destroyed, by Slaaneshi/Eldar, and so the Grail is stolen and most documentation about it lost to the mists of time.

 

However, their genestocks on Mars were incredibly extensive (for some as yet unknown reason ?). One survivor escapes, but he is mortally wounded and his memories are scattered (he could have been tortured, and his mind is now broken for instance).

 

Because of the very high number of geneseed, and its apparent purity, the High Lords of Terra decree that three/four chapters will be created from this geneseed.

 

Years after their founding, each (or simply one) of these chapters is visited by the mad space marine, who tells them of this "Grail" and how it was their ancestor's duty to guard over it. Since the ancestor chapter is no more, they are honour bound to search for it and restore it. The successors are inclined to ignore him, but through jiggery pokery, they find that he is exempt from the red thirst or the black rage, even though he is obviously a Scion of Sanginius.

 

Because of this, the successors get together, and decide to create an order that will be the spiritual successor to the Grail Wardens.

Over time, some chapters leave, create new successors, or turn rogue, etc. Also, some of the chapters have this special quest used to manipulate them.

 

 

 

This doesn't necessarily answer all of Arkangilos's questions, but it could answer some. As he says, there is not necessarily much reason for the different chapters to work too much together on this, so I'd see it more as a select few from each chapter that pledge themselves and go on quests on their own (but sharing all their findings with their colleagues). As soon as they find what they think is a good clue, but there are pesky enemies on the way, they can call to the closest chapter of the Alliance to help them.

These few decide to go on the quest because they believe they can cure all of the sons of Sanguinius, for the sheer nobility of it all, for personal glory... Whichever is pertinent to them.

I think this format would allow us to link all our chapters together coherently, but give us enough leeway to be free to do what we want in each chapter.

 

What do you guys think ?

 

 

I like this.

 

For three reasons:

 

1- It makes my Chapter's origin more mysterious, and it becomes an integral part of the Chapter: the quest for their origin. The genetic genealogists have a crisis of faith but after a while they get on again with their work, reworking genetic parenthood and trying to link the Chapter's first original heroes to Dorn instead of Sanguinius. This can also be a good link with the Lady of the Lake, who is probably the only one who remembers the reality of the Chaper's origin.

 

2- It can explain some of their divergences from the Codex.

 

3- It makes it easier to link the Chapters together in their search for the Grail.

 

***

 

If none of these solutions work out, I have another Chapter, a Blood Angel successor I made when the BA recieved new cool minis: the Blood Dragons (*working title*, really), wich are based on Dracula lore. Their first Master was Bela Dracul, and were proud of having mastered their Red Thirst to the point of having developed a Battle Meditation technique where all the rage entrapped during the days and weeks of meditation and containment was left off in a spectacular communal battlecry. They were savages on the battlefield, but decent monks outside of it, until they finally exploded in a storm of Black Rage that drove half the Chapter mad during the War of the Commodork's Hat. While in battle, half the Chatper's marines began tearing the Orks apart viciously, and then they turned on everything else. 

 

So maybe these Blood Dragons can work as a substitute?

Edited September 5, 2015 by Cèsar de Quart