Chief Captain Redd Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Ohh no I'm not disagreement you Anthraws. I just think we can find a nice medium and this probably will end up similar to our Calth or a comparable single planet massive battle. Plus Games Workshop changes their own numbers every few years it seems. That being said we could have the traitors have access to something like a space hulk, then larger numbers could be landed in waves. The enemy creates two or three heavily fortified landing zones, landing Astartes first, then Titans and other big pieces of armour to secure the perimeter while the traitors use landers back and forth to move all their army troops, as they are winning the orbit already so movement would be relatively uncontested. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Perils Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Ohh no I'm not disagreement you Anthraws. I just think we can find a nice medium and this probably will end up similar to our Calth or a comparable single planet massive battle. Plus Games Workshop changes their own numbers every few years it seems. That being said we could have the traitors have access to something like a space hulk, then larger numbers could be landed in waves. The enemy creates two or three heavily fortified landing zones, landing Astartes first, then Titans and other big pieces of armour to secure the perimeter while the traitors use landers back and forth to move all their army troops, as they are winning the orbit already so movement would be relatively uncontested. Whereas I think the Battle of the Forge is going to be a big battle, it isn't a good idea to compare it to Calth: Calth was a trap to create a sacrificial massacre for a dark ritual; Iyacrax would be a siege in order to take an objective... And I got the impression the Warbringers were secessionists and not chaos ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrawes Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 I apologize if this is coming across as belligerent, but I'm just trying to provide as many points of reference as I can to support my position that 500+ million garrison troops is much too many. Another point worth considering, is that as it stands this world has an army as big as Cadia in the 40k. Cadias population is 850 million. While all are trained as guardsman not all are old enough some are too old and some have to be running the infrastructure ( keeping the lights running, main ting fortifications, roads airports, janitors, ect.) so let's say 2/3 of that number are fight forces. That is 566 million soldiers defending Cadia. The most strategically important world short of terra in warhammer. This is another reason why half a billion seems like an absurd number to defend this world. I'm not trying to be rude, but it break believability, and immersion to think that this world has more defenders than Cadia (when you think about the 4000 wardens stationed there permanently) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Has it been decided just what the strategic importance of this world is? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund229 Posted September 12, 2015 Author Share Posted September 12, 2015 It's a major forge world, producing 4% of the legiones heavy armour and 1.78% of other equipment used by the legions. Given that those are pre insurrection figures, it's even more important now given the mechanicum civil war and disruption of normal supply lines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrawes Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 I think we both agree this is an important world. Where we disagree is the size of defenses a world of this level of importance would warrant. Right now, the defenses you are justifying arguable outgun Cadia. To me a world that is responsible for producing 4% of the legions war gear doesn't warrant s defensive force which is big enough to slaughter 1 entire legion. I'd say 50 million all told (while arbitrary) seems like a much more reasonable number of defenders. 500 million is for a world which is a lynchpin for the entire imperium which this world isn't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund229 Posted September 12, 2015 Author Share Posted September 12, 2015 I was replying to what Demus said rather than simply repeating myself in an attempt to get you to agree with me. :) However, Cadia is less important than Armatura and yet Armatura has a much larger garisson so I still think that Iyacraxs garisson isn't that over garissoned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrawes Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 A good point, but seeing as people like khan and angel tal find that number absurd(even if it's true), should tell you that kind of number is a huge almost impossible outlier. To me that says that the only reason armatura has 1 billion troops is due to ultramarine "logistical magic" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 The Cadia Armatura comparison isn't a very good one in my mind. M41 Cadia is a big deal. Heresy era Armatura is a legion training world. But for a legion with the largest home world alliances. So which one is more important is apples and oranges. The thing about a siege is that a 3/1 ratio of attackers to defenders is needed to have any hope of taking a fortified target. Legion and Imperial Army officers will know this. If you have 500 million defenders that means 1.5 million attackers. Sometimes less is more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 A good point, but seeing as people like khan and angel tal find that number absurd(even if it's true), should tell you that kind of number is a huge almost impossible outlier. To me that says that the only reason armatura has 1 billion troops is due to ultramarine "logistical magic" And this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170153 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Hmmm. The numbers seem fairly high. The big bar compared it with the us military forces. I see it more like china. 1 billion people. About 1.3 million soldiers( if i habe it right) so if we assume that this forgeworld has about 50 billion people ( really bigger than mars) than we have an army of 55 million soldiers. Now split them up between the different factions and tadaaa!!! Finished. Why the red suit? So that enemy can't see me bleed... Why china reference? Highly industrialized nation with a big standing army.( can't remember if it is the biggest) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Captain Redd Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 What if we simply walk the number back by a factor of ten? So instead of five hundred million, we had fifty million? I mean that's still insane warfare. And between the Iron Bears forces, 4000 Halycon Wardens and the garrisoned Army and Mechanicum that's still a hell of a fight even for two legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund229 Posted September 12, 2015 Author Share Posted September 12, 2015 I'd be good with that. Plus that would easily give the traitors a 3:1 advantage and then some if you don't count Mechanicum forces(still working on figures for those) Does anyone have any figures for what any other forge worlds had as a mechanicum garisson as that would give me some kind of yardstick? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Perils Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Hmmm. The numbers seem fairly high. The big bar compared it with the us military forces. I see it more like china. 1 billion people. About 1.3 million soldiers( if i habe it right) so if we assume that this forgeworld has about 50 billion people ( really bigger than mars) than we have an army of 55 million soldiers. Now split them up between the different factions and tadaaa!!! Finished. Why the red suit? So that enemy can't see me bleed... Why china reference? Highly industrialized nation with a big standing army.( can't remember if it is the biggest) I think that Iyacrax's population was stated at being 17 billion. I also think that 50million for the defenders and 150 million for the attackers is fair. Also, battles don't have to be huge to be epic EDIT: however I also feel the most important defenses should be Mechanicum forces and Astartes, not Imperial Army Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170181 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikhalLeNoir Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Only one thing nags on me is, that in the whole WW2 Total military dead: from 21 to 25 million, including deaths in captivity of about 5 million prisoners of war. Shouldn't be the wars in 30k be more...bigger in scale? But okay 50 million defenders plus 3 times the attackers.( or 3 times the power. Cause astartes count more thsn a human) Biiiiiiiiig battle Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Perils Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Only one thing nags on me is, that in the whole WW2 Total military dead: from 21 to 25 million, including deaths in captivity of about 5 million prisoners of war. Shouldn't be the wars in 30k be more...bigger in scale? But okay 50 million defenders plus 3 times the attackers.( or 3 times the power. Cause astartes count more thsn a human) Biiiiiiiiig battle Well, in 30k, the bulk of the fighting should be the Legions, not the Imperial Army. And since each Astartes is supposed to be worth 5 men or more, that multiplies the scale even more ! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Only one thing nags on me is, that in the whole WW2 Total military dead: from 21 to 25 million, including deaths in captivity of about 5 million prisoners of war. Shouldn't be the wars in 30k be more...bigger in scale? But okay 50 million defenders plus 3 times the attackers.( or 3 times the power. Cause astartes count more thsn a human) Biiiiiiiiig battle Well, in 30k, the bulk of the fighting should be the Legions, not the Imperial Army. And since each Astartes is supposed to be worth 5 men or more, that multiplies the scale even more ! But the imperial army vastly outnumbered the legions. There were something like 4000 Expeditionary Fleets at the height of the Crusade. There were only 18 legions. And a legionnaire is worth ten normal men. So said Rogal Dorn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170188 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Captain Redd Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 World War II is about as close as it gets to a 40k styled war. That being said everything in 30k/40k is hellishly more powerful and tougher. So I do actually think attrition rates would be a decent but lower. I mean compare a Leman Russ to a Sherman or Tiger Panzer. It's not even close, even currently an Abrams is probably a little lower in quality than a Predator. I mean NATO standard weaponry is comparable to a Lasgun at best. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 World War II is about as close as it gets to a 40k styled war. That being said everything in 30k/40k is hellishly more powerful and tougher. So I do actually think attrition rates would be a decent but lower. I mean compare a Leman Russ to a Sherman or Tiger Panzer. It's not even close, even currently an Abrams is probably a little lower in quality than a Predator. I mean NATO standard weaponry is comparable to a Lasgun at best. Well a Sherman didn't stand a chance against a Tigers main gun. The rounds all modern tanks use love big flat surfaces. A Predator is dead if an M1 gets a shot off first. A Russ wouldn't be unscathed either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Perils Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Only one thing nags on me is, that in the whole WW2 Total military dead: from 21 to 25 million, including deaths in captivity of about 5 million prisoners of war. Shouldn't be the wars in 30k be more...bigger in scale? But okay 50 million defenders plus 3 times the attackers.( or 3 times the power. Cause astartes count more thsn a human) Biiiiiiiiig battle Well, in 30k, the bulk of the fighting should be the Legions, not the Imperial Army. And since each Astartes is supposed to be worth 5 men or more, that multiplies the scale even more ! But the imperial army vastly outnumbered the legions. There were something like 4000 Expeditionary Fleets at the height of the Crusade. There were only 18 legions. And a legionnaire is worth ten normal men. So said Rogal Dorn. Yeah, the Imperial Army vastly vastly vastly outnumbers the Legions, but they really are Auxiliary troops when Astartes are present in any numbers. Yeah, there were 4000 Expeditionary Fleets, and only a fraction had any Astartes presence, but we really can't compare the Great Crusade to WW2 just by using a multiplier Warhammer 40k warfare isn't realistic, so we should compare the Icarion Insurection to the Horus Heresy, and not true modern warfare... EDIT: This means that a lot of 40k technology, including predators an Leman Russes, wouldn't stand a chance against real tanks and stuff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund229 Posted September 12, 2015 Author Share Posted September 12, 2015 Hw about these for numbers for the Mechanicus presence on Iyacrax? Ordo Reductor: 12.000 Thallaxii. Collegia Titanica: Legio Vindex(1 Imperator, 3 Warlords, 7 reavers and 15 warhounds). Legio Cybernetica: 3 cohorts, 4.500 Automata. Centurio Ordinatii: 2 Ordinatii. Skitarii: 250.000 Skitarii. Knightly Houses: House Bayard(13 knights), House Corbin(9 knights), House Pluramus(9 knights), House Vasa(4 knights), House Orion(1 knight) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Captain Redd Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 I think those are good numbers, the skitarii numbers could be upped a bit I think. Are there no Knight houses? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphariusOmegon108 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Skitarii should be upped to like 250k and warhounds should outnumber reaver 2 to one, so make that 15 ish warhounds the rest looks nice ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund229 Posted September 13, 2015 Author Share Posted September 13, 2015 I've corrected the numbers of skitarii and warhounds. Redd, you're right. I thought that knightly houses were seperate from mechanicum forces. I've added in the knightly houses who protect Iyacrax. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund229 Posted September 13, 2015 Author Share Posted September 13, 2015 Sorry for the double post but so far, this is how the Iyacrax Defence Army stands in terms of numbers including the Iron Bears and their various auxilia. Adeptus Mechanicus Forces Collegia Titanica: 2 Imperators, 6 Warlords, 13 Reavers, 29 Warhounds. Centurio Ordinatii: 2 Ordinatii Knightly houses: 99 knights. Ordo Reductor: 12,000 Thalaxii Legio Cybernetica: 4,500 Automata. Skitarii: 250,000 Skitarii. Adeptus Astartes 4000 Halycon Wardens 22,250-24,250 Iron Bears. Imperial Army forces 30 million Voltine Hussars. 7 million Borrydok Highlanders. 6.7 million Korrikan Steam troopers. 5.8 million Horritan Gunners. 3.9 million Grundun Rifles. 2.5 million Volpine Guards. 24,000 tanks of the Karrytine Heavy armour. 8000 tanks of the Jurrakan Cavaliers. Total: 55.9 million Troopers and 32,000 tanks. Abhuman or other Auxilia 90,000 Daughters of Daer'dd. 35,000 Ogryn Auxilia. 15,000 Ratling Auxilia. 45,000 other abhuman Auxilia. Personally I think this is enough to be getting on with for the loyalists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/313304-event-the-battle-of-the-forge/page/3/#findComment-4170424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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